[Rumour] Nolan Patrick requests trade

[AV.]

Unless the plan is to use Miller as a winger again, he likely doesn't fit in here.

 

Best of luck to the guy.  I think he change of scenery, a new coach, new teammates, etc., could do him well.

[flickyoursedin]

I’d do Virtanen for Patrick but I don’t think Philly would entertain the trade. For them Patrick is expansion eligible so I can actually see them wanting to trade him and with his injury history it will have to be at a discount. They have too many players they need to protect so even that Patrick wants out if they keep him he’s likely exposed. If you’re building a team you probably still like his potential and ignore the injury risk over the other both 6 guys that would be exposed. They’d probably rather have a player that doesn’t need protection or a high pick.

[Dazzle]

1 hour ago, AV. said:

Unless the plan is to use Miller as a winger again, he likely doesn't fit in here.

 

Best of luck to the guy.  I think he change of scenery, a new coach, new teammates, etc., could do him well.

It's funny you say that. Alain Vigneault, the coach, has healthy scratched NP a number of times

[ShawnAntoski]

2 hours ago, Me_ said:

After a whole day of discussions on this site, yes. This seems perfectly fair.

 

Change of scenery for both boys.

Virtanen’s lifestyle.

 

Yeah; but it will come down to the coach (ultimately) - if is he willing to trust the player with ice time.

Edited June 8, 2021 by ShawnAntoski

[Petey Castiglione]

13 hours ago, oldnews said:

Two things here:

 

1) I don't know what quailifies the idea that Green didn't 'trust' OJ - but that's simply not what his deployment said = he had 44.1% ozone starts (not even close to being 'sheltered' - Edler and Schmidt were the only two regulars that were lower than Juolevi - and OJ was being worked into secondary penalty killing role as the season progressed.  His minutes were nothing resembling 'easy' - they did not avoid 'exposing' him / he was not sheltered, in fact the opposite was generally the truth of it.

 

Juolevi's ice time towards the end of the season was extremely limited due to being severly ill, losing a lot of weight - and strength = it had nothing to do with "not being trusted".

 

2)   If Patrick has a problem playing under AV - I'd be concerned whether he'd like playing for Green.  First - AV developed at the NHL level a whole lot of good two way forwards - and doesn't make exceptions for 'stars' like Patrick - or Konecny - if they don't attend to details without the puck.  AV was never a coach to elevate young players prematurely....ot enable them to be vacant without the puck.   He's not likely to be any 'easier' on Juolevi than Green - but again, I think you misread that relationship and how Green utilized OJ.

 

I think Patrick's absolutely horrible numbers this year are probably an outlier.  He's showed some consistent strong signs as a young player imo - upticking as a faceoff guy who was over 50% as a 19yr old NHLer and has continued to improve ever since.

 

However - he missed an entire season - and then had a horrible season this year....It's hard to imagine that he's near 100% - there has to be really underlying concerns with his health.

 

Not a chance I'd swap Juolevi one for one for him at this point.  I think there are a lot of people sleeping on Juolevi - who might be surprised a year or two from now...

 

I might take a chance on Patrick - but at nowhere near that cost.

Great post ON.  I also feel like a lot of people are sleeping on OJ.  His progression was noticeable before Covid shut the team down.  You can see him getting more comfortable in the dzone and break up plays by himself all over the ice at times.  Plus he has great outlet passes, amazing stretch passes and was getting more physical.  Having OJ & Rathbone on the team solidifies the leftside for the decade.  OJ at a cost effective cap while adjusting to take over for Edler is more valuable to the team than a project 3C in Patrick.  Only way I trade OJ+ is if it's for a RHD to pair with Hughes.

 

Spitballing here, if we can get Patrick for a steal and he can play the 3C/4C role while keeping OJ we'd be a whole lot better off.  Hell, he can learn the shutdown role from Sutter and they can share 3C/4C duties.  We'd be looking pretty good depth wise while not giving up and major assets.

[EternalCanuckFan]

5 minutes ago, Petey Castiglione said:

Great post ON.  I also feel like a lot of people are sleeping on OJ.  His progression was noticeable before Covid shut the team down.  You can see him getting more comfortable in the dzone and break up plays by himself all over the ice at times.  Plus he has great outlet passes, amazing stretch passes and was getting more physical.  Having OJ & Rathbone on the team solidifies the leftside for the decade.  OJ at a cost effective cap while adjusting to take over for Edler is more valuable to the team than a project 3C in Patrick.  Only way I trade OJ+ is if it's for a RHD to pair with Hughes.

 

Spitballing here, if we can get Patrick for a steal and he can play the 3C/4C role while keeping OJ we'd be a whole lot better off.  Hell, he can learn the shutdown role from Sutter and they can share 3C/4C duties.  We'd be looking pretty good depth wise while not giving up and major assets.

If Patrick has indeed requested a trade, then this might go somewhere but he's 22-years old and is just completing his second pro contract without arbitration rights.  He has no leverage other than to refuse to report.  Unless Patrick reports but ends up being a major distraction to the team or can't make the team and may need to be waived, I can't see the Flyers letting him go very cheaply.  They are better off holding on to Patrick and playing him in a lesser role until he can show that he can stay healthy and contribute.

 

This of course doesn't mean that the Canucks shouldn't inquire.  I would be very intrigued about the possibility of adding Patrick, I just think the cost would be prohibitively high unless Canucks management happens to be very high on Patrick (in which case I would have concerns).

[Dazzle]

https://www.phillyvoice.com/nhl-trade-rumors-flyers-nolan-patrick-changed-agent-chuck-fletcher-restricted-free-agent/

(Copy and pasted from a bit of the article)

 

I feel for the guy, and I'm not one that wants to bash the guy. But he needs to find a way through his struggles, and running away isn't the solution. He's in the big leagues. There's always going to be criticism. He can play on a team like Arizona, but it doesn't necessarily mean he's going to flourish either.

 

-------------------------
 

Crossing Broad's Anthony SanFilippo said on his Snow the Goalie podcast with Russ Joy that he believes Patrick made the move because he simply "does not want to be here anymore."

“The reason Nolan Patrick switched agents is because he is going to request a trade,” SanFilippo said. “Nolan Patrick does not want to be here anymore; he doesn’t like the criticism that he’s facing, he doesn’t like the spotlight that’s on him, he doesn’t like the coach, at all. I don’t think Nolan Patrick wants to be here.”

This is not the first we've heard about Patrick possibly wanting out. The earliest rumblings came back in May when TSN's Frank Seravalli, a former Flyers beat writer, spoke about Patrick's change of representation and named the young center a name to watch this offseason as he could be on the move. 

"It's certainly possible," Seravalli said of Patrick switching teams this offseason. "He's actually gotten a fresh start off the ice. Nolan Patrick has hired his third agent in three years, now with Rich Evans of West Sports and entertainment. And they’re going through the feeling out process to digest this season and everything that happened in his return to the ice. A little bit disappointing in terms of production. I think you could certainly see Nolan Patrick on the list of players this summer who ask for a fresh start elsewhere. 

"However, they’re not there yet. And to be fair, the Philadelphia Flyers on their end think that Nolan Patrick is still a player that’s just scratching the surface. They’d like to see him get a full summer of training under his belt and come to camp healthy for the first time in a while. We'll see how that unfolds, but Patrick is an interesting name to watch this offseason as a restricted free agent." 

It was a disappointing season indeed for Patrick, who finished with just nine total points in 52 games to go along with a minus-30 rating. Part of that was inconsistency in the lineup itself, with Patrick moving up and down the lines throughout the year. But a down season is also understandable following a year in which people were wondering if he'd ever play hockey again. After posting 30 and 31 points respectively in his first two seasons, Patrick missed a key season in his development when he missed all of 2019-20 with migraines that not only made it impossible for him to play in games, but it also made it extremely difficult for him to simply be on the ice at times.

Edited June 8, 2021 by Dazzle

[Arrow 1983]

6 hours ago, EP Phone Home said:

“WHLers aren’t worth anything else” really???

 

Joe Sakic (Swift Current Broncos, 1986-88)

When Sakic retired from the NHL in 2009, he had tallied 1641 points (625g-1016a) in 1378 regular season games which sits ninth all-time in NHL scoring. His 188 playoff points (84g-104a) in 172 contests are ranked eighth all-time.

Sakic is a member of the elite Triple Gold Club. In addition to winning the Stanley Cup, Sakic won an Olympic gold medal in 2002 and a World Championship gold medal in 1994 with Team Canada. For all his accomplishments throughout his distinguished hockey career, Sakic was inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame

as part of the 2012 class.

 

Bob Clarke (Flin Flon Bombers, 1967-69)

In international play as a member of Team Canada, Clarke helped Canada defeat Russia in the 1972 Summit Series, won the 1976 Canada Cup and captured a bronze medal at the 1982 IIHF World Championship. For all his accomplishments throughout his illustrious hockey career, Clarke was inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame as part of the 1987 class. His jersey has also been retired by the Flin Flon Bombers and Philadelphia Flyers.
 

 

Carey Price (Tri-City Americans, 2003-07)

 

The 28-year-old goaltender has played his entire nine-year NHL career so far with the Montreal Canadiens. In 2014-15, Price had a season to remember as he racked up numerous individual awards. Price’s exceptional campaign earned him the Hart Memorial Trophy as the most valuable player in the NHL as well as the Ted Lindsay Award as the NHL’s most valuable player as selected by the National Hockey League Players’ Association. In addition, the netminder received the Vezina Trophy as the NHL’s best goalie and the William M. Jennings Trophy. Price also became the second WHL graduate to earn the Lou Marsh Award as Canada’s top athlete in 2015. Price had the opportunity to represent his country once again in 2014 and won an Olympic Gold medal between the pipes for Team Canada.
 

Bryan Trottier (Swift Current/Lethbridge Broncos, 1972-75)
 

At the end of his 18-year NHL career, Trottier had recorded 1425 points (524g-901a) in 1279 regular season games which sits 16^th all-time in NHL scoring. His 184 playoff points (71g-113a) in 221 contests are ranked 11^th all-time. The native of Val Marie, SK also won a silver medal for Team Canada at the 1981 Canada Cup. For all his accomplishments throughout his illustrious hockey career, Trottier was inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame as part of the 1997 class. Recently, Trottier was inducted into the Canada Sports Hall of Fame.

 

Scott Niedermayer (Kamloops Blazers, 1989-92)

 

His NHL career lasted 17 years including 12 seasons with the Devils before ending with the Anaheim Ducks. When Niedermayer retired in 2010, he had registered 740 points (172g-574a) in 1263 regular season games and recorded 98 points (25g-73a) in 202 playoff contests. Over his illustrious career, Niedermayer raised the Stanley Cup a total of four times including three with the Devils (1995, 2000 and 2003). In his 2007 Stanley Cup victory with the Ducks, Niedermayer was awarded the Conn Smythe Trophy as the MVP of the Stanley Cup Playoffs. Niedermayer also collected a James Norris Memorial Trophy as the NHL’s best defenceman in 2003-04.

Niedermayer is a member of the elite Triple Gold Club. In addition to winning the Stanley Cup, Niedermayer won two Olympic gold medals in 2002 and 2010 as well as a World Championship gold medal in 2004 with Team Canada. For all his accomplishments in his distinguished hockey career, Niedermayer was inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame as part of the 2013 class. In addition, his jersey has been retired by the Kamloops Blazers and New Jersey Devils.
 

Just a few examples of all time greats that came from the WHL. That comment is just silly and untrue Arrow.

I didn't mean all of whl history I meant last 10 years and picking whl players in the first round, I'm ok if they go after that but whl players have inflated stats the goalies aren't that good the structure of the game play is terrible in the league. 

OHL, US leagues have better fundamentals and therefore teach the players the fundamentals better.

There are to many bigger guys in the WHL that if they have even ok speed can get a lot of points but their games never translate to the NHL. 

[Sean Monahan]

22 hours ago, Quantum said:

Philly wishes they drafted Petey instead of Nolan Patrick.

 

I was pretty sure Nolan Patrick was gonna be Seattle Kraken bound anyways. They're gonna be selling low on Patrick this summer. I don't think Patrick has had a healthy season since 2016.

 

OJ for Patrick isn't a bad swap of underperforming high draft picks. I don't hate it. But I would rather have Juolevi as a depth guy instead of being dealt but if you can make Patrick a 3C that would be a big win and Benning loves to try and rehabilitate former lottery picks (see: Pouliot, Del Zotto).

Neither were lottery picks though. 

[ShawnAntoski]

24 minutes ago, Dazzle said:

https://www.phillyvoice.com/nhl-trade-rumors-flyers-nolan-patrick-changed-agent-chuck-fletcher-restricted-free-agent/

(Copy and pasted from a bit of the article)

 

I feel for the guy, and I'm not one that wants to bash the guy. But he needs to find a way through his struggles, and running away isn't the solution. He's in the big leagues. There's always going to be criticism. He can play on a team like Arizona, but it doesn't necessarily mean he's going to flourish either.

 

-------------------------
 

Crossing Broad's Anthony SanFilippo said on his Snow the Goalie podcast with Russ Joy that he believes Patrick made the move because he simply "does not want to be here anymore."

“The reason Nolan Patrick switched agents is because he is going to request a trade,” SanFilippo said. “Nolan Patrick does not want to be here anymore; he doesn’t like the criticism that he’s facing, he doesn’t like the spotlight that’s on him, he doesn’t like the coach, at all. I don’t think Nolan Patrick wants to be here.”

This is not the first we've heard about Patrick possibly wanting out. The earliest rumblings came back in May when TSN's Frank Seravalli, a former Flyers beat writer, spoke about Patrick's change of representation and named the young center a name to watch this offseason as he could be on the move. 

"It's certainly possible," Seravalli said of Patrick switching teams this offseason. "He's actually gotten a fresh start off the ice. Nolan Patrick has hired his third agent in three years, now with Rich Evans of West Sports and entertainment. And they’re going through the feeling out process to digest this season and everything that happened in his return to the ice. A little bit disappointing in terms of production. I think you could certainly see Nolan Patrick on the list of players this summer who ask for a fresh start elsewhere. 

"However, they’re not there yet. And to be fair, the Philadelphia Flyers on their end think that Nolan Patrick is still a player that’s just scratching the surface. They’d like to see him get a full summer of training under his belt and come to camp healthy for the first time in a while. We'll see how that unfolds, but Patrick is an interesting name to watch this offseason as a restricted free agent." 

It was a disappointing season indeed for Patrick, who finished with just nine total points in 52 games to go along with a minus-30 rating. Part of that was inconsistency in the lineup itself, with Patrick moving up and down the lines throughout the year. But a down season is also understandable following a year in which people were wondering if he'd ever play hockey again. After posting 30 and 31 points respectively in his first two seasons, Patrick missed a key season in his development when he missed all of 2019-20 with migraines that not only made it impossible for him to play in games, but it also made it extremely difficult for him to simply be on the ice at times.

It would be interesting if Patrick ended up with the Av’s - two teams that has a history of trading top picks between each other: Lindros Trade.

[Alienhuggyflow]

5 hours ago, oldnews said:

people also might want to stop micro sampling Juolevi post outbreak.  

He looked extremely solid in the first half of the season -  before he got extremely ill - I was concerned a bit down the stretch - but didn't realize he was playing at a fraction - the reports are unambiguous.

Before covid I thought he looked on the verge of taking the next step, he played a simple mistake free game but all anyone focuses on now was that one play where he got beaten quite badly. He finally got his feet wet and like others have posted he's the type that seems to take a bit to get acclimated but once he does has excelled at every level. Did he even play enough games to lose his rookie status?

[ShawnAntoski]

6 hours ago, GarthButcher5 said:

I saw a lot of Patrick when he was in junior. He was a slick player with a killer edge and the guy that you wanted on the ice when the game was on the line.

 

I think injuries have taken their toll. I could see him becoming a Malholtra type of player and reinventing his game from a top line forward to being one of the best shut down 3C's in the league but the fact he is requesting a trade makes me think he hasn't come to terms with this yet.

 

As much as I have liked the player in the past I think he is not the player we need in the future at this point of time.

Trying to avoid an overreaction/missing my point issue cause I want to enjoy this day - you know who you are; perhaps Alain was trying to fit him in a role, he is not keen on playing before he will trust him with minutes - sound like the JV & Green saga to me ????

 

Edited June 8, 2021 by ShawnAntoski

[48MPHSlapShot]

It's worth a phone call, simply because of his success in the dub and his draft position, but he's teetering dangerously close to bust territory. It probably wouldn't be worth what Philly would likely be asking. 

 

Anyone suggesting Virtanen is out to lunch. Virtanen has negative value. 

[Petey Castiglione]

11 minutes ago, EternalCanuckFan said:

If Patrick has indeed requested a trade, then this might go somewhere but he's 22-years old and is just completing his second pro contract without arbitration rights.  He has no leverage other than to refuse to report.  Unless Patrick reports but ends up being a major distraction to the team or can't make the team and may need to be waived, I can't see the Flyers letting him go very cheaply.  They are better off holding on to Patrick and playing him in a lesser role until he can show that he can stay healthy and contribute.

 

This of course doesn't mean that the Canucks shouldn't inquire.  I would be very intrigued about the possibility of adding Patrick, I just think the cost would be prohibitively high unless Canucks management happens to be very high on Patrick (in which case I would have concerns).

oh totally agree.  It makes no sense from the Flyers stand point to sell low, but if they are looking to move on from him it's worth kicking tires on.  We absolutely do not need to move on from OJ and imo we're better off with OJ than with Patrick

[Nucker 67]

I could see Virtanen in a Flyers jersey.  

[Provost]

19 hours ago, oldnews said:

Two things here:

 

1) I don't know what quailifies the idea that Green didn't 'trust' OJ - but that's simply not what his deployment said = he had 44.1% ozone starts (not even close to being 'sheltered' - Edler and Schmidt were the only two regulars that were lower than Juolevi - and OJ was being worked into secondary penalty killing role as the season progressed.  His minutes were nothing resembling 'easy' - they did not avoid 'exposing' him / he was not sheltered, in fact the opposite was generally the truth of it.

Juolevi's ice time towards the end of the season was extremely limited due to being severly ill, losing a lot of weight - and strength = it had nothing to do with "not being trusted".

As always, the OZone Start % is effectively useless and absolutely should never be used to make the assumption that you keep erroneously leaping to.  You know what you are presenting is garbage meant to mislead people (or should know that by now)... but you keep doing it.

Juolevi had exactly 6 more dZone starts than oZone starts (at 5v5 which that stat is measuring) the entire season...  33 oZone Starts to 39 dZone starts... 1 more every 4 games he played.  That tells you almost nothing about his usage and how hard his minutes were. He had 310 neutral zone of on the fly starts which are entirely ignored by that stat... .those represent.

10.2% of his shifts started in the dZone
8.6% of his shifts started in the oZone

81.2% of his shifts started on the fly or in the neutral zone

... your 44.1% oZone start stat to show he was the "opposite" of sheltered were 1.6% of his shifts difference... and again, equal just 0.25 shifts per game difference between ozone and dzone.

He also had a sum total of 18:22 on the PK for the season, or an average of 48 seconds each game he played.

He played just 13:12 minutes a game on average for the season... which is the definition of a sheltered 3rd pairing D man.  He ranked 280 (out of 317) in average ice time amongst all NHL D for the season.  He was one of the least used D in the entire league... Being used less minutes that almost every D man in the league CERTAINLY gives a pretty darn good indication that the coach didn't trust him.  Certainly a more compelling argument than the fake "well he played 0.25 more shifts in the dZone per game than he did in the oZone so he is the opposite of sheltered!" nonsense.

His minutes played did NOT drop post Covid due to fatigue/weight loss like you said... he played more minutes per game in April/May than he did in January... his month by month average only changed by a few seconds variation.  He wasn't relied on more or less pre and post Covid

It is entirely ludicrous to compare Juolevi's 39 dZone starts over the entire season to Edler's 159 or Schmidt's 152.. or even Quinn Hughes 87.  Even if you adjust for games played... Juolevi comes up with the 2nd least dzone starts per game amongst all our D used for more than 1 game... ahead of only Hughes.  Even Rathbone and Chatfield had more dZone shifts per game played than Juolevi had.








 

Edited June 9, 2021 by Provost

[oldnews]

2 hours ago, Arrow 1983 said:

I didn't mean all of whl history I meant last 10 years and picking whl players in the first round, I'm ok if they go after that but whl players have inflated stats the goalies aren't that good the structure of the game play is terrible in the league. 

OHL, US leagues have better fundamentals and therefore teach the players the fundamentals better.

There are to many bigger guys in the WHL that if they have even ok speed can get a lot of points but their games never translate to the NHL. 

you have no idea what you're talking about.

 

Goaltenders like Cary Price and Carter Hart have come out of the WHL.

 

NHL coaches like Dave Babcock, Ken Hitchcock, Mark Habscheid, Dave Lowry, Brent Sutter, Don Hay, Todd McLellan, Kevin Constantine have come out of the WHL...

 

just stop.

[Dazzle]

40 minutes ago, Provost said:

As always, the OZone Start % is effectively useless and absolutely should never be used to make the assumption that you keep erroneously leaping to.  You know what you are presenting is garbage meant to mislead people (or should know that by now)... but you keep doing it.

Juolevi had exactly 6 more dZone starts than oZone starts (at 5v5 which that stat is measuring) the entire season...  33 oZone Starts to 39 dZone starts... 1 more every 4 games he played.  That tells you almost nothing about his usage and how hard his minutes were. He had 310 neutral zone of on the fly starts which are entirely ignored by that stat... .those represent.

10.2% of his shifts started in the dZone
8.6% of his shifts started in the oZone

81.2% of his shifts started on the fly or in the neutral zone

... your 44.1% oZone start stat to show he was the "opposite" of sheltered were 1.6% of his shifts difference... and again, equal just 0.25 shifts per game difference between ozone and dzone.

He also had a sum total of 18:22 on the PK for the season, or an average of 48 seconds each game he played.

He played just 13:12 minutes a game on average for the season... which is the definition of a sheltered 3rd pairing D man.  He ranked 280 (out of 317) in average ice time amongst all NHL D for the season.  He was one of the least used D in the entire league... Being used less minutes that almost every D man in the league CERTAINLY gives a pretty darn good indication that the coach didn't trust him.  Certainly a more compelling argument than the fake "well he played 0.25 more shifts in the dZone per game than he did in the oZone so he is the opposite of sheltered!" nonsense.

His minutes played did NOT drop post Covid due to fatigue/weight loss like you said... he played more minutes per game in April/May than he did in January... his month by month average only changed by a few seconds variation.  He wasn't relied on more or less pre and post Covid

It is entirely ludicrous to compare Juolevi's 39 dZone starts over the entire season to Edler's 159 or Schmidt's 152.. or even Quinn Hughes 87.  Even if you adjust for games played... Juolevi comes up with the 2nd least dzone starts per game amongst all our D used for more than 1 game... ahead of only Hughes.  Even Rathbone and Chatfield had more dZone shifts per game played than Juolevi had.








 

Benning clearly said that Juolevi lost 10 lbs due to covid. Juolevi has had zero luck with regards to injuries so far, so his sheltered minutes are a reflection to how he was utilized, rather than his inability to play the position.

 

I have not heard about Baumgartner returning, so I would really be curious to know how Juolevi gets utilized when he's fully healthy.

Edited June 9, 2021 by Dazzle

[Provost]

3 minutes ago, Dazzle said:

Benning clearly said that Juolevi lost 10 lbs due to covid. Juolevi has had zero luck with regards to injuries so far, so his sheltered minutes are a reflection to how he was utilized, rather than his inability to play the position.

 

I have not heard about Baumgartner returning, so I would really be curious to know how Juolevi gets utilized when he's fully healthy.

You are saying opposite things.  I posted that it simply isn’t true that Juolevi’s minutes were lowered due to Covid… because they just weren’t.  He played more than he did earlier in the season.  He didn’t earn more minutes when he was healthy either.

 

You are saying outright that he was sheltered, when that is what my post literally explained as I was responding to the demonstrably false premise that Juolevi was “the opposite of sheltered”.

 

I have no idea how Juolevi would play in future seasons.  That doesn’t change the fact he was heavily sheltered this season.  There hasn’t been anything so far to suggest he is suddenly going to break out.  If he does, great.  In the meantime I think he has pretty clearly been surpassed on the depth chart by Rathbone.

[bigbadcanucks]

1 hour ago, oldnews said:

you have no idea what you're talking about.

 

Goaltenders like Cary Price and Carter Hart have come out of the WHL.

 

NHL coaches like Dave Babcock, Ken Hitchcock, Mark Habscheid, Dave Lowry, Brent Sutter, Don Hay, Todd McLellan, Kevin Constantine have come out of the WHL...

 

just stop.

Nice beat down.