Why we should turf the "dump and chase" style and focus on controlled entries

[iceman64]

2 hours ago, Ghostsof1915 said:

I've been saying this for years.

Too much energy is spent retrieving the puck, when if you have a controlled entry you just focus on attack. 

we had "some"of that though, enough? not really, our problem was mainly not having a balanced attack of speed and grit, dump and chase is all focused on speed which we had BUT that just got us into the playoffs and then we'd get dumped by a better balanced team everytime.. a speedy soft team rarely gets far, maybe on occasion but the NHL is the toughest playoff game scenario, certain teams, we know who they are or were more like it that were dirty and bigger mixed with skill better than us, and deeper in depth. 

 At least JB realized it and tried to bring in grit so we would stop getting beaten up so bad..  sort of.. 

However, seems like we're more suited for controlled entry that Detroit used to be so f'n good at.. if we can get anywhere near that, I'd be stoked, there's nothing more painful to watch dump and chase fail... 

[elvis15]

No one chooses to have dump and chase as their main form of zone entry. It's forced upon teams/lines that have a lower skill level than the opposition for controlling the puck.

 

Sometimes it's good to mix it up with the odd dump and chase - particularly when you think you can catch a team unaware - but every team would prefer to be able to skate the puck in.

[48MPHSlapShot]

In total agreement, especially with Rathbone making the lineup. We'll see what happens in training camp, but this team is going to have to skate and control the puck in order to be successful, and having mobile Dman like Rathbone on the back end will go a long ways towards ensuring that every line has an opportunity to carry the puck.

[nux_win]

We shouldn't rely on any one tactic, we should mix it up, and keep 'em guessing.  Go Canucks Go!

[Dannydog]

3 hours ago, Fred65 said:

Man some of us need to look around other teams in the league. I watched the play-offs and that Mtl big 4 now they looked like winners. Think Headman, Cernak, Bergosiian and McDonough in Tampa. We don't have a Headman or a Cernak

Neither do the majority of the other hockey clubs. 

[Dannydog]

2 hours ago, Fred65 said:

I think they are, this season.  For start it look like Webber is done with his injury, but the fact is that bunch of no names as you suggest shut down a high powered Leafs, Winnipeg and the Vegas Knights and then went to 5 games against TB. Not bad for a bunch of losers. Certainly better than Vcr 

Didnt we do something similar in the bubble. 

[Googlie]

45 minutes ago, Dannydog said:

Didnt we do something similar in the bubble. 

Except we didn't get past Vegas.. got shut out in 3 of our 4 losses to them.  Lots here pointed the finger at the defence, but it was a lack of scoring that defeated us.  Outstanding goaltending kept us alive, but getting shut out x3 was the killer.

[oldnews]

3 hours ago, Googlie said:

Hard to do on a smartfone ... graphics just don't replicate which would have made the whole post disjointed.  With a choice of posting a link, or posting gibberish, I opted for substance.  Sorry if I offended you.

 

(I guess a 3rd option would be not to post anything.  I found the article interesting and informative, so thought others might do so too.  Not everyone has your grasp of analytics, nor access to the advanced stats needed.)

 

 

yawn.  be childish about it if you must - ie 'sorry if I offended you'....

 

those are the board rules.

 

not to post links or syphon traffic to other sites.

simple

 

just make the effort to post the content.

 

 

 

 

 

[oldnews]

4 hours ago, J-P said:

Rathbone is an exciting prospect and could make the team right away but I personally always take prospect performances late in the season when games don't matter (as we were already out of it) with a big grain of salt. So - let's see where he's at when training camp starts.

 

Not sold on the OJ vs JR comparisons, they are different players and there's room for both. A left side with OEL/QH/OJ/JR looks like it could be as good as any in the league in a year or two.

?  there was no "comparison" of Juolevi and Rathbone - and no - there's not room for them both in the lineup - two spots on the left side are taken by OEL and Hughes - the 3rd spot will be competed for - potentially shared by those two - but whether they are 'different players or not' has nothing to do with it - performance will.

[flat land fish]

To the OP you need to be able to do both.  Your skilled guys more so controlling entries.  Depending on the opponents defensive tactics you may need to dump and chase at times.  If you can do both it’s tougher on the opponent.

[Baratheon]

Maybe it’s just me but it seems like teams/players don’t actually know how to dump and chase correctly anymore.  Back in the day the dump-ins seemed more calculated to leave the other teams D in a vulnerable position to get hit.  These days they really put the “dump” in dump-in.

[Viper007]

The carry it in vs dump it in all depends on situation.  It's tough to carry the puck in if the competition D is standing up at the red line waiting for you to do that.  You have to dump it in to force them to turn around.  But also, if they're starting to cheat when you dump it in, that's when you should carry it in.  You also need to do things at full speed.  It could cause them to fall back and not be able to hold the line.  Also if you're dumping it in, you'll be faster to get to the puck.  

[Alflives]

Maybe it’s pretty simple.  On the rush, if there is no back pressure we carry it in.  If there is back pressure we dump it in.  It’s really about being smart, and reading the play quickly.  Plus, now we have a way faster, more skilled, and tenacious forward group.  And we have D who can become an extra attacker, when the opportunity arises.  We had some slow guys, and some dumb guys before, that just couldn’t support the play.  They too often got caught on the wrong side of the puck.  

[RWMc1]

39 minutes ago, Baratheon said:

Maybe it’s just me but it seems like teams/players don’t actually know how to dump and chase correctly anymore.  Back in the day the dump-ins seemed more calculated to leave the other teams D in a vulnerable position to get hit.  These days they really put the “dump” in dump-in.

It's the rule changes. Players today intentionally turn their backs to the fore-checkers knowing that they shouldn't get hit. Unfortunately, the rules around that fluctuate from team to team and game to game. Some teams and players get the "he saw him coming and turned away" treatment even though that's what everyone is doing. Now players mostly try to separate the opponent from the puck and only finish hits when they can see that the player being targeted can see them coming.

[Alflives]

7 hours ago, Googlie said:

Great analysis by CanucksArmy  ...

 

https://canucksarmy.com/2021/08/21/why-canucks-changes-playstyle-season/

 

 

Thanks @Googlie

Interesting topic.  

[RWMc1]

I see us continuing with our mix of dump ins and carry ins next season. We also do different types of dump ins depending on the situation. We ring the puck around and try to get there first, dump it in the corner and go battle for it, and flip it to soft spots where we try to get a player turning the wrong way leaving room for us to set up. It's good to have options.

[Googlie]

1 hour ago, oldnews said:

yawn.  be childish about it if you must - ie 'sorry if I offended you'....

 

those are the board rules.

 

not to post links or syphon traffic to other sites.

simple

 

just make the effort to post the content.

 

 

 

 

 

I understand.

 

I guess it would have behooved me to read the guidelines before first posting on these boards, or creating a topic. 

 

(And for the record, I wasn't "being childish". Your pejorative use of "smarmy" led me to believe that in some way you took offense to my post.  Of course now that I have read the guidelines I realize it was just a gentle nudge and reminder you were giving me)

 

All is good ..... (one advantage of being elderly is that pride has long since deserted us and we can admit to being wrong when we are wrong!!)

[Gollumpus]

Nothing wrong with doing "dump and chase" if the situation calls for it. I believe there was an analysis regarding how the Canucks stacked up with other teams regarding offensive zone entries, and they were kind of in the middle(?) IIRC. If not, please point me to the article where it says otherwise cuz I don't recall where it was.

 

Rathbone is given a lot of credit for being a guy who can carry the puck, but isn't moving the puck and advancing it to the opposition end of the ice one of the things for which Juolevi was drafted?

 

"A competitive spark-plug, Olli Juolevi is a complete, all-around defenceman who can hem the opposition in their own end or make things difficult for the opposition at home; either way, he puts the pressure on and lays it on thick. A strong and balanced skater, he can rush the puck through the neutral zone with ease or backcheck with haste. Uses his size to his advantage, but knows his physical limits and plays within them. Instead of playing overly physical, he makes his presence felt by exhibiting his high-end playmaking ability and puck possession play. All-in-all, a well-rounded blueliner who thrives under pressure and can be trusted in all situations" (found on Juolevi's prospect info on these boards)

 

I'd be inclined to play Juolevi at the NHL level and let him show that he can't play in Vancouver (yes, I'd gift Joulevi a spot rather than gift Rathbone a spot.....). Juolevi's more defensive style is disregarded by some/many who like Rathbone's potential offense, but I'd be happier with a guy who has higher potential at keeping the puck out, rather than putting the puck in, playing in the bottom-6. By this I mean, a d-man who has a (potentially) higher defensive upside will be of greater utility to the team over a guy who is perhaps lacking in that regard (eg. I'd put Juolevi in to kill a penalty over Rathbone). If Juolevi looks like he can't cut it, find a trade for him, try to move him to the AHL (and risk losing him on waivers), or keep him in the press box and bring Rathbone back up.

 

As to Juolevi and Rathbone, I've been suggesting that Rathbone starts in Abbottsford for this season, mostly because he can clear waivers and Juolevi can't. If the team wants both of these guys sharing a spot at the NHL level then I don't see anyone gaining much from this situation. Rathbone to the AHL, he gets playing time (even if it's at the AHL level). If the team tries to send Juolevi down, he is sure to be scooped by another team (maybe this could be wrong, depending on the current situation like when Markstrom(?) was successfully moved to the AHL because of a timing thing where the other teams weren't willing to risk grabbing him and letting a goalie who they had set loose.

 

If Rathbone were to demonstrate that he is the second coming of Bobby Orr, well sure, play him.

 

                                                      regards,  G.

[Attila Umbrus]

1 hour ago, Baratheon said:

Maybe it’s just me but it seems like teams/players don’t actually know how to dump and chase correctly anymore.  Back in the day the dump-ins seemed more calculated to leave the other teams D in a vulnerable position to get hit.  These days they really put the “dump” in dump-in.

Dump and chase is a lot harder now because you can't go running in and crash guys into the boards anymore in fear of taking a penalty. You used to dump it in and go hard for it and crash in on the puck, but the NHL has made it harder to do that. If they put the whistles away a bit more I feel like you'd see it come back again.

 

It's sad but I see why it's happened. When you dump the puck in the defensemen inherently have to pivot and turn their backs to the boards to try and recover the puck which leaves them vulnerable to getting hit from behind or if both forward and defensemen are chasing after the puck after dump in we've seen so many of those plays turn into one player flying into the boards head first and the other taking a penalty because they are both fighting hard for body position to get to the puck, someone loses balance and then boom in the boards they go.

 

So now you get a dump and chase game that is less forceful, you can still dump it into their zone but you can't go hard at the defense as much as you could in the past. So you just can't create the kind of pressure that it used to back in the day.

 

At least that's my take on it.

[Attila Umbrus]

20 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Thanks @Googlie

Interesting topic.  

First picture i've seen where you combed your hair alf, it's a good look buddy