How Green's coaching and Benning's trades degraded this team

[JM_]

1 hour ago, IBatch said:

Green deserves 20 games.   He's helped a lot of rookies become very very rich.    And kept Pearson in the league, plus helped Miller become a very desirable UFA...Imagine how things would have gone with Torts?  Lol.  Half of them would want to leave but we'd have won a couple more games - big freaking deal.   As soon as Travis gets fired, another team will fire their coach or he will get job offers.    Is he what we need right now?  Maybe not, but he's noticed skill where skill is - allows them to play ridiculous minutes, and is arguably  the better of the two (JB or TG).    Seasons are full of ebbs and flows.   Glad most of us aren't running the club or coaching. 

 

It's funny really.   When he doesn't start a blender then he's bad.   When he changes things up then he's bad.   Unless we are winning, in that case too many just think that's the players.   Green is an NHL coach.   Sorry to point this out.  

 

I don't really care if Green is removed, what I care about is who replaces him and what group that person brings for support.

 

All of the Green complaints, much of it valid, some of it goofy, doesn't mean much unless we can get someone better.

 

So who's out there? Jim's not going to roll the dice again with someone new to the NHL, he'll almost certainly want a veteran coach.

 

[73 Percent]

2 hours ago, Timråfan said:

Off coarse every coach in NhL has yelled. 
mostly former players go on with coaching and their father taught them this way as their father taught and so on tio we’re back at neanderthals.

Have you ever heard that a coach can change coaching style?

Man I'm just going to block you.

[Wolfgang Durst]

Just now, bree2 said:

wow! its so nice to know that  you know more than the GM and the coaches and how to run this team. we have played a few games and some of you are whining already. 

I disagree: we are not whining - we see the reality as it is. The reality is:

- canucks lost against teams like Detroit and Buffalo, two teams that are supposed to be at the bottom of the standings.

- Benning traded away two first round picks ! to add veteran players to this team to make the playoffs and we still lose against teams like buffalo and detroit,

- some fans said after the preseason: it's only preseason

- some fans say it's only 4 games

- if they don't take action the losing will continue and the team will not make the playoffs.

 

[DefCon1]

9 minutes ago, NewbieCanuckFan said:

It's Gillis' fault!  He was the guy that hired him in the first place to be the head coach of our AHL affiliate back in 2013.

 

It' always goes back to Gillis!

 

Gillis was smart because he knew Green is just an AHL coach good to developing younger guys. Too bad Benning didnt get the memo and promoted him to be our NHL coach. We should demote Green to AHL and hire an actual NHL coach with NHL experience. Benning just likes to keep hiring AHL coaches like Willie and Green or people with not much experience to be an NHL coach or assistant coach like Baumgartner or Jason King. They should have hired Gallant in the summer.

[wildcam]

8 hours ago, *Buzzsaw* said:

Where do I start?

 

Quinn Hughes:

 

Everyone knows Hughes is a rare offensive talent.  He is someone who excels in a Run and Gun offense, or as a powerplay quarterback.

 

What he isn't is a defensive ace... he is not a #1 Defenseman.  A real #1 D can do it all... both offense and defense... Hughes simply isn't big enough to dominate physically in his own team's end the way a real #1 has to.

 

But what does Green do?....  He plays Hughes like a #1... he plays him for close to 30 minutes and he puts him in all the situations which would be demanded of a #1... so we see Hughes on the PK, in charge of clearing the front of the net... wrestling with forwards who are twice his size.  And big surprise... Hughes is a gamer, he tries hard, and then he gets injured wrestling with a much bigger forward in front of the net.

 

Part of this is the failure of Benning to provide Green with a player who could be a good defensive partner to Hughes.  He let Tanev go... Tanev wasn't the biggest player, (bigger than Hughes) but he had the smarts and anticipation... he knew how to use his stick and control the play net front.  Benning also didn't replace Edler with someone who could be as physical.  Everyone who got down on Alex as he aged tends to forget the work he did in front of the net... Edler was a stalwart back there and could battle with the best of them.  Nobody replaced him.  OEL is not that guy... he's skilled, but he is not a real physical presence.

 

Logically Myers should be partnered with Hughes... that way Myers can take care of the net front... but that partnership hasn't worked out for some reason... (although you would think a decent defensive coach could teach them to work together)

 

I am concerned that Hughes is being ruined as a player... that he will mistakenly start to lose confidence in himself for not being able to play the physical game... as well as getting angry at Green for putting him in these situations.

 

Hitting:

 

Everyone is talking about the lack of hitting by the Canucks... their record this season is abysmal.

 

The only person who seems to be hitting is Connor Garland... which is a complete anomaly.  Garland is one of the smaller players on the team... why is he leading the way in the physical play?   Let me make a prediction... if Garland continues to try to lead the team physically, he will be injured too.

 

So why isn't Green coaching the big guys on the team to hit and be physical???  It's true the team has gotten smaller... thanks to all the small forwards Benning has brought in and all the big forwards he has lost to waivers... but we still have few guys with size... Horvat, Miller, Pearson, Myers are examples... why isn't Green coaching his bigger guys to hit on the forecheck?

 

After all, Green's system is a dump and chase... following by a cycle... and hitting has to be part of that... you gotta have someone retrieve the puck when you dump it in... and the way you do that is by forcing the opposing D to cough up the puck... either by hitting or the threat of a hit.

 

So what's going on???  Well, what's going on is Green's laissez faire/see what happens attitude towards everything.  He doesn't have a handle on what his players are doing because he really doesn't have a system.

The other problem is, Miller, Pearson, Horvat and Myers are some of the offensive cornerstones of the team now... if you have these guys being the physical ones... then they get injured or end up in the box.  Theoretically, it is the lunch bucket guys on the team who should be doing the hitting.... problem is... the lunchbucket hitters are all missing.

 

A few years back we had a decent amount of hitting going on... it wasn't really coached... it came as part of the player package.. i.e. we paid to have guys like Beagle, Graovac and Roussel do that... but Benning messed up his CAP and decided we couldn't afford any more expensive character players.

 

And the in house developed hitters, like MacEwen, Bailey and Gadjovich all fell victim to Green's grudges... when Green doesn't like you... you aren't long for the team.

 

So what are we left with?   Unfortunately it looks like a soft team.... thanks Green's coaching and Benning's trades/waivers.

 

---

 

On a related topic... while I love John Garret for his commentary, he is a real homer and never likes to criticize the Canucks Staff.  Corey Hirsch is definitely a character, but he is also not afraid to point to where Green's system is breaking down... both in the D Zone as well as on the offense.  He's been a breath of fresh air.  Wish Green and the Assistants would have a listen to the broadcasts.

 

 

 

 

Canucks are a much better team and will be a playoff team... I don't like Green using Miller as 3rd line centre  when the 1st line is not on track.. We have not had a physical team in years and lost MacEwen how could answer the bell.. Edler time was over slow and time to move off as he got 3 million and not worth that..We  miss Hamonic in line up and who knows when he will return..I would like to see Bowey in line up as #6 or 7, he had a very solid camp...Top 6 forward lines should roll out like this..

1. Miller - Petey - Boeser

2. Garland - Horvat - Hoglander

3. Pearson - Dickinson -- Podkolzin

4.Highmore - Lammikko -- Dowling

 

 

[EddieVedder]

9 minutes ago, Wolfgang Durst said:

I disagree: we are not whining - we see the reality as it is. The reality is:

- canucks lost against teams like Detroit and Buffalo, two teams that are supposed to be at the bottom of the standings.

- Benning traded away two first round picks ! to add veteran players to this team to make the playoffs and we still lose against teams like buffalo and detroit,

- some fans said after the preseason: it's only preseason

- some fans say it's only 4 games

- if they don't take action the losing will continue and the team will not make the playoffs.

 

But the fans will tell themselves its because petey and hughes missed camp and boeser was injured.

Aquaman knows as long as their marketing keep hyping up some of these players, fans who dont know better will keep buying.  

[CanucksJay]

3 hours ago, Battlemonger said:

Outcoached again. End of story. 

CoachTG Outcoached 

Doesn't quite have the same ring as GMMG out GM'd lol

[wildcam]

10 minutes ago, Wolfgang Durst said:

I disagree: we are not whining - we see the reality as it is. The reality is:

- canucks lost against teams like Detroit and Buffalo, two teams that are supposed to be at the bottom of the standings.

- Benning traded away two first round picks ! to add veteran players to this team to make the playoffs and we still lose against teams like buffalo and detroit,

- some fans said after the preseason: it's only preseason

- some fans say it's only 4 games

- if they don't take action the losing will continue and the team will not make the playoffs.

 

Come of beat Detroit like 6-2 against? Detroit had a very very hot goalie shots were 41--21 for Vancouver..

Now Buffalo was a team that never showed up....

[EddieVedder]

7 minutes ago, wildcam said:

Canucks are a much better team and will be a playoff team... I don't like Green using Miller as 3rd line centre  when the 1st line is not on track.. We have not had a physical team in years and lost MacEwen how could answer the bell.. Edler time was over slow and time to move off as he got 3 million and not worth that..We  miss Hamonic in line up and who knows when he will return..I would like to see Bowey in line up as #6 or 7, he had a very solid camp...Top 6 forward lines should roll out like this..

1. Miller - Petey - Boeser

2. Garland - Horvat - Hoglander

3. Pearson - Dickinson -- Podkolzin

4.Highmore - Lammikko -- Dowling

 

 

Petey and Brock spent way too much time last yr trying to pad eachothers stats.  It was so obvious that it became cringe.  It was a factor in how lousy that line played last yr.  I would like to see Petey with Hogz and Podz.  Let them loose.

[kanucks25]

8 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Anyone who still uses a bag skate to evaluate players needs to go back to the AHL.

 

As far as the personnel on this team, Benning has assembled one of the better teams on paper since 2012.  It's not his fault Sutter is sick and Hamonic refused to show up.  Those are two pieces that really could have helped that we thought were coming.  

 

Most likely we waived Gadjovich and MacEwen because of Green, so we lost our only 2 tough guys because Green wanted to play his AHL fodder that obey his every command.

 

This is NOT on Benning at all.  This team with the right coach is an easy playoff team, even without Sutter and Hamonic.  The problem is the guy behind the bench.  It's so obvious even a blind mouse can figure it out.

Hiring two AHL coaches that unsurprisingly failed is not on the GM?

 

What medal did you win at the mental gymnastics event?

[CanucksJay]

9 minutes ago, wildcam said:

Canucks are a much better team and will be a playoff team... I don't like Green using Miller as 3rd line centre  when the 1st line is not on track.. We have not had a physical team in years and lost MacEwen how could answer the bell.. Edler time was over slow and time to move off as he got 3 million and not worth that..We  miss Hamonic in line up and who knows when he will return..I would like to see Bowey in line up as #6 or 7, he had a very solid camp...Top 6 forward lines should roll out like this..

1. Miller - Petey - Boeser

2. Garland - Horvat - Hoglander

3. Pearson - Dickinson -- Podkolzin

4.Highmore - Lammikko -- Dowling

 

 

Coach Cam in the house! 

How a regular fan can set the lines better than the coach is beyond me... 

I agree. 

I wanted Juolevi but even Bowey showed better than Schenn and Hunt. I liked Hunt pre season by the way. 

Although I do admit staff was correct on Burroughs. He has been a good surprise. 

[DS4quality]

The biggest issue I have especially when people say it's early and not to  worry is that it's actually not early this is a 3 year continuation of the same thing. 

Evey one gets caught up in in the bubble, but we weren't going to make the playoffs that season without the stoppage. The team has been inconsistent ever since the bubble. Even the bubble strategy was to maybe capitalize on our goaltending and Powerplay. 

So for myself watching the exact same thing over and over with different players is why I do think something needs to change 

[kanucks25]

20 minutes ago, JM_ said:

 

I don't really care if Green is removed, what I care about is who replaces him and what group that person brings for support.

 

All of the Green complaints, much of it valid, some of it goofy, doesn't mean much unless we can get someone better.

 

So who's out there? Jim's not going to roll the dice again with someone new to the NHL, he'll almost certainly want a veteran coach.

 

If they do make a change, it'll probably be for a veteran hard-ass type in an attempt to roll some heads in the locker room.

 

As if it's 2013/14 all over again lol.

[Pickly]

If the Canucks don’t tighten up defensively and start playing a full 60 minutes for a majority of their games they are going to find themselves in a hole by the quarter mark of the season they are going to have a hard time climbing out of. The whole didn’t play well enough tonight narrative we hear too often doesn’t cut it. The players need to buy in to what they are being coached and start executing it or find a new coach who can get the most out of this group. Give it a few more games before making any real judgment but so far the on ice product looks eerily similar to last season. 

Edited October 20, 2021 by Pickly

[JM_]

1 minute ago, kanucks25 said:

If they do make a change, it'll probably be for a veteran hard-ass type in an attempt to roll some heads in the locker room.

 

As if it's 2013/14 all over again lol.

I don't think they need to do that, I think the effort level is there. They just don't seem to know what they're doing. 

[Nucker 67]

Embarrassing losses in DET and BUF, in my opinion

 

Yes, it's early, but that's no excuse. Would really suck if they missed the playoffs by 2 points. They can point back to those "easy points" that were lost. 

 

Green doesn't hate losing and I have a problem with that. I also don't believe he knows how to motivate and inspire his players.  My guess is Miller and Bo run the room and Travis stands quietly in the corner to let them sort it out.  

 

Leadership starts with the head coach. Travis will lead them nowhere.

 

Edited October 20, 2021 by NUCKER67

[King Heffy]

36 minutes ago, JM_ said:

 

I don't really care if Green is removed, what I care about is who replaces him and what group that person brings for support.

 

All of the Green complaints, much of it valid, some of it goofy, doesn't mean much unless we can get someone better.

 

So who's out there? Jim's not going to roll the dice again with someone new to the NHL, he'll almost certainly want a veteran coach.

 

I'd be making some calls and see how Babcock is handling things in Saskatchewan.

[JM_]

2 minutes ago, King Heffy said:

I'd be making some calls and see how Babcock is handling things in Saskatchewan.

probably quite chill. 

 

I suspect Jim would reach back to his Boston or Buffalo days for a veteran coach. 

[EternalCanuckFan]

My thoughts thus far:

1. Game 1 (Oilers) the Canucks were slow out of the gate but hung in there to earn a point in Edmonton.  Overall they looked OK but out of sync, basically until the last 5-minutes of the game.
2. Game 2 (Flyers) the Canucks were actually pretty good.  They had what might be argued to be a collapse in the last 5-minutes, but some of the calls made against them were questionable.  They ultimately salvaged the game in the shootout.
3. Game 3 (Red Wings) the Canucks were actually pretty good but, as seems to happen a bit more often to the Canucks than I would like, ran into a hot goalie.  Greiss, while not spectacular, does provided solid goaltending most of the time and has his moments. I guess the Canucks just ran into him at the wrong time and, again, some of the calls were questionable.
4. Game 4 (Sabres) the Canucks started out reasonably well but then just seemed to fall out of sync.  It felt like the team forgot how to execute their defensive systems.  Demko wasn't terrible but last night was one of those games where it's clear that if the Canucks have any stretch in a game where they fail to execute their defensive systems, their goalie is probably going to need to make many saves on extremely high quality chances.

Obviously the team is not trending in the right direction and just as there were signs for enthusiasm in the first few games, there are signs for concern as well.  The team wasn't as terrible defensively in the first few games as what was feared, but it's definitely still going to be a struggle for them, especially as they deal with injuries.

 

I think other posters have already said this, but I will just add my voice to whatever already existing chorus that is saying that Green should just keep Miller with Pettersson and Boeser now that Boeser is healthy.  I get that the team wants more balance in the line-up, but right now it feels like that pursuit of balance is coming at a cost.  Miller at C is a good idea in theory, and notwithstanding the fact that line scored last night, IMHO they should just stick with has worked.

 

I'm not anti-Pearson but I'm also not a huge fan of pairing him with Horvat all the time.  If Horvat is somehow making the call to have Pearson ride shotgun with him, then it would make wonder who is actually steering the "ship" of the team.  At this point I think Horvat-Garland is the natural pairing rather than Horvat-Pearson and if they were willing to play Podkolzin with Miller, then they might as well give him a shot with Horvat-Garland.  He's a better skater and passer than Pearson, notwithstanding the fact that he's still figuring out the NHL game. 

 

Shorthouse and Hirsch were mentioning how Hoglander played well with Dickinson so I wonder if the Dickinson-Hoglander pairing might be better suited to have Pearson play with them.  It would be a defensively responsible line with the ability to contribute on offense since they should control the puck well.  That would leave the 4th line as Dowling-Lammiko-Highmore, for now anyway, which I think is a perfectly fine 4th line.

 

I'm not in the "sky is falling" mode quite yet as I think coaching is still experimenting with lines and the players themselves are still finding (or restoring) chemistry with one another.  Let's just hope they figure it out sooner rather than later.

 

 

[King Heffy]

7 minutes ago, JM_ said:

probably quite chill. 

 

I suspect Jim would reach back to his Boston or Buffalo days for a veteran coach. 

Likely Julien then.  I can live with that as long as he doesn't have our guys flopping every chance they get like he did in Boston.  Muller would likely be an assistant, which I'd like.

Edited October 20, 2021 by King Heffy