[Rumour] J.T. Miller Trade/Contract Talks

[JM_]

4 minutes ago, Gawdzukes said:

I don't see how you could say trading Miller won't help us with the prospect pool problem. At this point I think you're just arguing whatever pops into your head just to argue. This statement literally makes no sense. Trading awesome players for prospects doesn't significantly help your prospect pool. Okay then whatever lol.  Obviously this convo is pointless.

you keep glossing over what I post. Lets try this again.

 

How many years will it take to solve our prospect pool problem. I think its 4 years. Look at Lekkerimaki, e.g., we won't know for at least 2 probably 3 more seasons whether he's closer to Petey or to Dahlen. 

 

A Miller deal may not help very much on this front at all. Like I said, JR/PA seem to have a preference for roster players back, so if thats true theres no prospects.

 

You can  all you want but that may be how this plays out.

 

4 minutes ago, Gawdzukes said:

 

And let's not pretend we can actually trade Garland or Boeser at all for anything at this point. No one has cap space and we just saw the Bjorkstrand deal and how they gave him away because they said it would cost to get rid of him later. Miller is not under contract next year while the other two are. At this point a newly signed Boeser ain't going anywhere unless he proves his new contract is worth it. So basically you're re-signing Miller with a hope and a prayer something works out elsewhere to free up the cap. That's a lack of planning and a poor gamble to take in my opinion.

We'll have to see. Garland might have to go for nearly free as well. 

Edited September 1, 2022 by JM_

[Coconuts]

Seems you guys could use coffee, being a local I can tell you this coffee is good

 

https://foggdukkers.com/collections/all

[VegasCanuck]

1 minute ago, gurn said:

I'm  a bit concerned by this, from Petey.

I'd be liking it a whole lot better if he had said " I need to do what it takes to make my team a winner".

Why would we be concerned about this? What's he going to say? He's okay with mediocrity?

 

We want guys around who push the envelope at all levels. All players understand that this is a business and that the businesses that operate in the league are all subject to a salary cap.

 

He's saying exactly what I would want him to say, and if he performs this coming season, the way he performed the last 2 months of last season, we will have a winning record and "should" make the playoffs. We still have holes to fill, but up front, we have a lot of depth and skill and should be able to compensate for a weak right side D. Very few teams in this league have no holes in their lineup.

 

With the depth that we have up front, on LD and in net, if we don't make the playoffs this season, the players (Pettersson included) need to look in the mirror and ask themselves why.

 

 

[Gurn]

3 minutes ago, JM_ said:

thats it exactly.

 

I keep saying "on paper" for a reason. I think we have a lot of the elements for a good team, now whether or not BB can help them execute over a full season is another thing altogether. 

you do realize  you just agreed, that IF 8 things go right we might be contenders to get out of our division.?

So your idea is to keep Miller, get 2 top 4 D men, and have 8 things go right to hopefully get us out of the division?

 

 

That is a whole lot of hope.

[JM_]

1 minute ago, gurn said:

you do realize  you just agreed, that IF 8 things go right we might be contenders to get out of our division.?

So your idea is to keep Miller, get 2 top 4 D men, and have 8 things go right to hopefully get us out of the division?

 

 

That is a whole lot of hope.

goes for any team. Marky goes down and CGY is in the toilet too. 

 

I also don't see many of the things on your list as some Herculean task to improve. The guys need to commit better to new systems but thats not unique to us. 

[Gurn]

2 minutes ago, VegasCanuck said:

What's he going to say? He's okay with mediocrity?

As I mentioned he could have said " I need to do what it takes to make this a wining team".

That would indicate he is not ok with 'mediocrity' and will work to better the team.

 

saying " I want to play on a winner" is getting close to " I don't like it here, and going to take my marbles to play elsewhere."

[Elias Pettersson]

17 minutes ago, gurn said:

I'm  a bit concerned by this, from Petey.

I'd be liking it a whole lot better if he had said " I need to do what it takes to make my team a winner".

Could be a translation issue...   

[ilduce39]

1 hour ago, Gawdzukes said:

This is my take.

 

2. We have no RD signed after the 2023/2024 season

3. The RD needs a complete re-work before we can have any success

 

Don’t these two points kind of cancel each other out?  (We will still have Poolman - who will be LTIR or at 2.5 per.) 
 

We shed 5.9 mil in dead cap next offseason in Ferland / Virtanen / Holtby.  Add this to 6 mil in Myers which with one year left you aggressively move and you’d have to think think we could allocate significant cap to finding a 1RD even if Horvat and Miller get hefty raises.  
 

One of the forwards might have to go depending on who we want to land and keep - but I don’t understand thinking we need to shoot for 3 or 4 years down the line to contend.  
 

In a normal offseason we could have made some major moves for this year - but I don’t see why using the deadline / next offseason we can’t come out as contenders whether we keep Miller or deal him. 
 

(Assuming Petey / Hughes / Demko / OEL all play at a high level) 

[ilduce39]

If we’re looking to win via the prospect pool then - and I’ve said this dozens of times - they should just burn it down to the foundations.  And probably should have done it last season so we’d be in on Bedard. 

[Mustard Tiger]

Not Miller related but just as important 

[Gawdzukes]

1 hour ago, EdgarM said:

= Cup half empty! ..............

Seriously though, What makes no sense to me is to get rid of an asset that somewhere down the road you are going to need. A top Center who can produce and provide leadership. Yes 4-5 years down the road his play is going to decline but where do you find a player like this again? We have not had many on this team in the decades I have been following them. Probably Linden is the closest to comparison and maybe Kessler. I could mention Messier but that is just not right. 

I believe the recipe for success involves a player like Miller. 

He is not 100% a perfect player but he does provide attributes we have been lacking for decades. Leadership who doesn't back down or skate away. 

I have seen some near impossible transactions happen in the NHL so don't count out getting rid of our excess baggage just yet. I believe the right time will present itself and management will trim the fat when the opportunity arises.

= Reality

 

Somewhere down the road we're not going to need him we're going to be paying to get rid of him.

 

Paying $60 mil for for 2 years of good hockey when it's unknown if we can compete yet is not good business or hockey sense. Nothing about Cup half empty. I totally get what you're saying about the quality of hockey player. Usually I would agree. It's just unfortunate we're not a better team and our team cap is screwed for the next two years, right smack dab in the middle of his last 2 prime years. It's a contradiction in how to proceed for sure.

 

I believe, after paying attention very closely for the last 10 years, one crucial key to success lies in not making grievous mistakes like signing players to unnecessarily massive contracts. Especially boatload anchors. To answer your question of where you would find players like Miller again, exactly the same place someone else will find him if we trade him. At the deadline, during the season, or in the off season through trade or UFA when we're more ready to compete.

 

If they can sign Miller and make it all work then sure I'd like to see it but that's a lot of what if's and unknowns. Way too many for me to even consider it reasonable. I don't think the things I listed are incorrect in any way though. They should be somewhat obvious to anyone following along closely.

 

For me personally I'd rather be the Vancouver Canucks then the Vancouver Millers for the next 8 years. I think the team is more important than the player and we would basically be arranging our whole team around him to accommodate that contract. But some folks just love Miller that much and I guess that's alright too.

 

And mentioning &$#kface  is just not right. You are correct 

Edited September 1, 2022 by Gawdzukes

[Metal Face Doom]

Looking more and more like Miller is going to play the season.

Edited September 1, 2022 by Metal Face Doom

[Slegr]

8 minutes ago, Metal Face Doom said:

Looking more and more like Miller is going to play the season.

He will play! …. He will play on crutches….

[VegasCanuck]

1 hour ago, gurn said:

As I mentioned he could have said " I need to do what it takes to make this a wining team".

That would indicate he is not ok with 'mediocrity' and will work to better the team.

 

saying " I want to play on a winner" is getting close to " I don't like it here, and going to take my marbles to play elsewhere."

I think media takes every single word out of management and players mouths and twist it for the maximum number of clicks they can generate.

 

Pettersson: "I signed back in Vancouver because I really want to play on a winning team and be a part of a winning organization..."

 

Media: "Pettersson demands trade to winning team... he said, I really want to play on a winning team..."

 

Its what our media does, CONSTANTLY!!!

 

What fans need to remember is, media is paid now as much by click through rates as they are by subscription sales of newspapers etc.

 

It's like media saying "Meteor the size of Manhattan is headed towards earth..." Then you click and read the actual story and find out that it won't come within 5 million KM, but saying that "A Meteor the size of Manhattan will pass earth next week, at 5 million KM distance..." will pull about 20% of the clicks that the other headline will.

 

Estimate that each click is worth a minimum of $1.00 to a media company and its easy to see why they sensationalize the headlines to pull clickers.

 

[canuck73_3]

1 hour ago, Coconuts said:

Seems you guys could use coffee, being a local I can tell you this coffee is good

 

https://foggdukkers.com/collections/all

Awesome coffee spot, love it there. 

[Coconuts]

1 minute ago, canuck73_3 said:

Awesome coffee spot, love it there. 

I'm headed up again to see my nana so imma stop and buy a bag of everything but the decaf 

[BureBurrito]

19 minutes ago, Metal Face Doom said:

Looking more and more like Miller is going to play the season.

and ownership will let him walk than lose playoff revenue possiblilities

 

[JM_]

28 minutes ago, Gawdzukes said:

= Reality

 

If they can sign Miller and make it all work then sure I'd like to see it but that's a lot of what if's and unknowns. Way too many for me to even consider it reasonable. I don't think the things I listed are incorrect in any way though. They should be somewhat obvious to anyone following along closely.

 

you're not incorrect, but I do think your timing is off. 

 

On the prospect thing, e.g., even if we got incredibly lucky next draft and got a "Makar" at 17th oa e.g., he's still 5 years away from being that guy contributing that well to this team. 

 

IMO Benning left us with a Binary choice, run with the best parts of this current group, or blow it up. Yes going with this group has big risks, so does the step back idea. I'd prefer to get Demko in to the playoffs for 4 years vs 4 years of what I see as guaranteed mediocrity with the step back. 

 

[Gawdzukes]

52 minutes ago, ilduce39 said:

Don’t these two points kind of cancel each other out?  (We will still have Poolman - who will be LTIR or at 2.5 per.) 
 

We shed 5.9 mil in dead cap next offseason in Ferland / Virtanen / Holtby.  Add this to 6 mil in Myers which with one year left you aggressively move and you’d have to think think we could allocate significant cap to finding a 1RD even if Horvat and Miller get hefty raises.  
 

One of the forwards might have to go depending on who we want to land and keep - but I don’t understand thinking we need to shoot for 3 or 4 years down the line to contend.  
 

In a normal offseason we could have made some major moves for this year - but I don’t see why using the deadline / next offseason we can’t come out as contenders whether we keep Miller or deal him. 
 

(Assuming Petey / Hughes / Demko / OEL all play at a high level) 

I said two years. The problem is the money doesn't come off the books until then. Point being we need to concentrate on that, not whatever Miller brings for the next two years while our problems are being sorted out. Other than the dead cap which will hopefully cover Podkolzin, Kuzmenko, and Bo, there is no other money. Petey is up then too.

[BlastPast]

1 hour ago, Gawdzukes said:

This is my take.

 

1. The team currently is not a top team and has some glaring holes

2. We have no RD signed after the 2023/2024 season

3. The RD needs a complete re-work before we can have any success

4. We have no cap space left

5. We have players to re-sign in the near future like Bo, Pods, Kuz, Petey

6. We currently have cap penalties eating into our cap space

7. We have impossibly hard players to move, Dickinson, Pearson, Myers

8. We have no cap space left

9. We have a minimal amount of assets

10. We have almost zero capable prospects 

11. We're a wildcard contender staring at a big unknown for the season

12. Cap penalties and unwanted contracts are all finished in 2024/2025

 

Conclusion: Trade Miller, and focus on 2024/2025. It doesn't make mathematical sense to keep him. We simply don't have the cap space to fit him into the line-up, and fix the RD, without selling off every asset we have and the future of the team. Or we could gut the team elsewhere in an already weak line-up, and play this stupid game again in two years time, and be no further ahead then we are now.

 

I see all these statements like just trade guys like Dickinson and Pearson, but I'm sorry that's just a dumb plan. That's what people have been saying for 5 years now and every year it's the same. You know what, no one wants these guys or we would have traded them already and signed some RD, and be one our way. Sometimes you just have to admit you can't always get what you want and have it all. You have to accept the reality and deal with it, instead of sticking your head in the sand and pretending its all going work out fine without any sacrifices or touch decisions.

 

How are we're going to give raises to Bo, Pods, Petey, Kuz = 6-7 mil+

Add RD = 5 mil

Pay Miller = 3 mil more

 

= 15 mil with zero cap space. Talk about setting yourself up to fail. Anyone that can add and subtract simple numbers up to 82.5 should immediately see the massive problem with re-signing Miller.

 

These seem to be a standard set of opinions for some fans. Some of these opinions are undoubtedly true, but others are debatable, if not demonstrably untrue.

1. True. But I would say there are also some glaring strengths.

2. Untrue. Poolman is signed past that point, although it remains to be seen if he is healthy and effective.

3. This opinion -- while true -- is redundant, as it was covered in point 1.

4. Untrue. Once Ferland is placed on LTIR, and they put a couple of players in the minors, they will have about 1.5 million to add one player. Not a lot, but not zero.

5. True

6. True

7. "Impossibly hard" is probably not accurate. Dickinson would certainly require an incentive at this point, but I doubt it would be impossible given the contract and age of the player --- and the fact he was a decent player not that long ago.

8.Redundant

9. Do you know what an asset is? This team has plenty of assets. They have players, draft picks, and even some prospects that have value. 

10. That is something that will be determined at training camp and the pre-season. Rathbone, Lockwood, or Karlsson could all emerge this year; or maybe they don't. It remains to be seen.  They definitely don't have the bumper crop of years past, but it's possible for prospects to make the jump to the NHL at some point this season (Rathbone the most likely candidate). I think it is worth noting here that while Podkolzin and Hoglander may not be technically classified as prospects, they are young players who can improve while on the roster.

11. Calgary are the favorites going into the year. After that perhaps Edmonton, and then things get more wide open. I wouldn't rule Vancouver out of contention to be a divisional qualifier.

12. That depends on how OEL and Mikheyev perform. I like the Mikheyev signing, but there is some risk there.

 

With regards to the bolded, this is not a weak line-up. If it were, we wouldn't even be talking about the playoffs. Also, the cap is projected to increase starting in the 24-25 season. If it were to increase by ~5% over the 23-24 projected cap of 83.5 we could see a cap of  ~88 starting in 24-25.