[Rumour] Bo Horvat Trade/Contract Talks

[MrCanuck94]

1 minute ago, wai_lai416 said:

bo is an offensive center?? then better start walking away coz he ain't signing for 6.5mil and he's on pace for 54 goals 73 points prolly won't hit those numbers but he have shown he's capable to score and i wouldn't be suprise if he some how hits 40 goals on a contract year.. coz that's what players do have career number on contract years.

Offensive as in he's not a two way or defensive center. Let's see if he can push past the 60 point plateau this season.

[wai_lai416]

1 hour ago, MrCanuck94 said:

Offensive as in he's not a two way or defensive center. Let's see if he can push past the 60 point plateau this season.

he's not a 2 way center? really?? lol he's been matched up against other teams top line for god knows how many years now and respectable results and he's an offensive center and not a 2 way?? he's not a defensive specialist that's for sure.. to call him an offensive center and then say he doesn't put up even points as an offensive center is laughable at best.. i dunno any "offensive" center that have more defensive zone starts than any other players on the team.. he's not a selke caliber 2 way forward.. but to say he's an offensive forward that doesn't put up enough points offensively have gotta be a joke.. 

[N4ZZY]

On 10/31/2022 at 5:37 AM, wai_lai416 said:

problem is given how bad this team looks at time.. and the great start horvat is off to.. would he even agree to 7M anymore.. it would have been a no brainer back in the summer.. now i dunno anymore.. and given the rumor the cap is expected to go up 3-4mil next season. his agent might be telling him to wait as there's no rush to re-sign as based on his play so far this season mind you very small sample size his value have only gone up and not down.

yeah. I get that as well. I think if it were just about the money, I'd wait too. But how much more is Bo going to command? 9M? I think he's probably maxed out at 8, maybe a desperate GM gives him 8.5M per year for 7 years? That's too high in my books, I don't think we can give Horvat money where he hasn't produced more than 70 points in his career. I'm not even sure he's ever hit 70 to be honest (at the top off my head, I wanna say no). To me, I'd give him a NMC/NTC for the full length of his contract, for 7-7.5M. I think that's fair. He hasn't produced 99 points in his career at all, and at this stage, he's not going to. He's more of a scorer than he is a distributer as a centre, so to maximize his fullness, he'd need a playmaking winger on his wing who can dish him the puck, and he can score. His career high in assists is 34 in a full 82 game season. And in that season, he produced 52 points. 

 

What do you think his career high in points would be moving forward? What's he worth? He's definitely not going to keep up his goal scoring pace, there's no way he's going to finish with 50 goals. Even 40 goals to me is a stretch. 

 

[cripplereh]

Long term 8 years would be 7 mill a season as he himself knows he will decline.That the problem ad we have him and Miller.EP will command more if his pace keeps up.To me best thing is trade for a decent young center that could take his place.A team like NJD or the sens.Thet need a vet to learn from so would make sense or resign and hope for the best in years to come.

[aGENT]

1 hour ago, N4ZZY said:

yeah. I get that as well. I think if it were just about the money, I'd wait too. But how much more is Bo going to command? 9M? I think he's probably maxed out at 8, maybe a desperate GM gives him 8.5M per year for 7 years? That's too high in my books, I don't think we can give Horvat money where he hasn't produced more than 70 points in his career. I'm not even sure he's ever hit 70 to be honest (at the top off my head, I wanna say no). To me, I'd give him a NMC/NTC for the full length of his contract, for 7-7.5M. I think that's fair. He hasn't produced 99 points in his career at all, and at this stage, he's not going to. He's more of a scorer than he is a distributer as a centre, so to maximize his fullness, he'd need a playmaking winger on his wing who can dish him the puck, and he can score. His career high in assists is 34 in a full 82 game season. And in that season, he produced 52 points. 

 

What do you think his career high in points would be moving forward? What's he worth? He's definitely not going to keep up his goal scoring pace, there's no way he's going to finish with 50 goals. Even 40 goals to me is a stretch. 

 

Probably depends on when/if we find/develop a LEGIT 3C. Get him a guy like Malhotra to cover a lot of the D zone draws and some take match up/hard minutes off his shoulders, and I could see him in the 70+ point range until he's 31-32'ish. Just like Kesler's production jumped by adding Malhotra.

[Coconuts]

Stuff like this is why the longer this goes on the more I believe Bo's side has management by the balls

 

 

 

[JM_]

4 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

Stuff like this is why the longer this goes on the more I believe Bo's side has management by the balls

 

 

 

depends - how much of the improvement is due to Garland?

[grandmaster]

6 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

Stuff like this is why the longer this goes on the more I believe Bo's side has management by the balls

 

 

 

I have faith JT will be the same dominant force he was last season. Just a slow start….

[Coconuts]

5 minutes ago, JM_ said:

depends - how much of the improvement is due to Garland?

Not sure, but JT's struggling at center thus far this season is just more leverage for Bo. If Bo continues to thrive and JT continues to look better on his wing than he does at center it's likely something Horvat's agent brings up.

 

I don't see Bo coming in at a team friendly deal, if he was going to it likely would have happened already. But even if Garland is acting as an insulating force in some way it could still be argued that Miller's looking better on the wing. 

 

2 minutes ago, grandmaster said:

I have faith JT will be the same dominant force he was last season. Just a slow start….

Maybe, I guess we'll see? 

[JM_]

3 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

Not sure, but JT's struggling at center thus far this season is just more leverage for Bo. If Bo continues to thrive and JT continues to look better on his wing than he does at center it's likely something Horvat's agent brings up.

 

I don't see Bo coming in at a team friendly deal, if he was going to it likely would have happened already. But even if Garland is acting as an insulating force in some way it could still be argued that Miller's looking better on the wing. 

 

Maybe, I guess we'll see? 

 

actually I think here's the answer - its Garland

 

https://www.naturalstattrick.com/linestats.php?fromseason=20222023&thruseason=20222023&stype=2&sit=5v5&score=all&rate=n&team=VAN&vteam=ALL&view=wowy&loc=B&gpfilt=none&fd=2022-10-07&td=2023-04-13&tgp=2000&strict=incl&p1=8477500&p2=8476468&p3=8478856&p4=0&p5=0

 

 

[Coconuts]

9 minutes ago, JM_ said:

 

actually I think here's the answer - its Garland

 

https://www.naturalstattrick.com/linestats.php?fromseason=20222023&thruseason=20222023&stype=2&sit=5v5&score=all&rate=n&team=VAN&vteam=ALL&view=wowy&loc=B&gpfilt=none&fd=2022-10-07&td=2023-04-13&tgp=2000&strict=incl&p1=8477500&p2=8476468&p3=8478856&p4=0&p5=0

 

 

Hmm, I'm not sure. I'm not the greatest at reading these graphs. 

 

But Garland as a beneficial or harmful factor or not, so long as JT Miller isn't effectively playing center and the longer he looks better on the wing the more leverage it offers Horvat's agent. Miller's defensive struggles aren't new, we saw them last year too but he was piling up a career year's worth of offense so it wasn't as noticeable, or he could be afforded more slack. 

 

My point is simply the longer the Canucks lean on Horvat and Pettersson as their top two center's the more Bo's value increases and the more leverage he has. And I think that matters, because I don't think Bo's going to take the haircut management has probably been hoping he'd take. 

Edited November 2, 2022 by Coconuts

[JM_]

Just now, Coconuts said:

Hmm, I'm not sure. I'm not the greatest at reading these graphs. 

it seems to indicate from a possession and high danger chance pov that Garland with Miller is more effective than Bo with Miller without Garland.

 

Its obviously a small # of minutes, etc. but it is interesting if true. 

 

Just now, Coconuts said:

But Garland as a beneficial or harmful factor or not, so long as JT Miller isn't effectively playing center and the longer he looks better on the wing the more leverage it offers Horvat's agent. Miller's defensive struggles aren't new, we saw them last year too but he was piling up a career year's worth of offense so it wasn't as noticeable, or he could be afforded more slack. 

 

My point is simply the longer the Canucks lean on Horvat and Pettersson as their top two center's the more Bo's value increases and the more leverage he has. And I think that matters, because I don't think Bo's going to take the haircut management has probably been hoping he'd take. 

yeah I suspect Bo will be in the 7's if we do sign him. Contingent on moving Brock imo. 

[Coconuts]

9 minutes ago, JM_ said:

it seems to indicate from a possession and high danger chance pov that Garland with Miller is more effective than Bo with Miller without Garland.

 

Its obviously a small # of minutes, etc. but it is interesting if true. 

 

yeah I suspect Bo will be in the 7's if we do sign him. Contingent on moving Brock imo. 

It would make sense, if I recall correctly he also played alright with Pearson last season, and Pearson's not a shabby defensive player. Could be worth keeping an eye on if that's what things indicate. 

 

If they'd jumped on it earlier maybe they'd have him done at 7M already, I really wish we'd have just gotten him done first. If they can't come to terms with Bo I don't have a whole lot of confidence in this team having much of a chance at the playoffs. Bo would leave some pretty big shoes for Miller and Pettersson to fill. If Bo ends up being traded that'll indicate this is probably another lost season to me personally. 

 

The longer this goes on the more I think Bo starts fresh elsewhere else. Particularly if we don't keep stringing wins together. 

Edited November 2, 2022 by Coconuts

[SilentSam]

It’s Brock….  too much, for too little.

…. and sadly I don’t think he can turn it up.

 

 

[Honourable Hughes]

He’s raising his value at least. I’d still like to sign. But we should look at picking our core that wants to stay and doing a rebuild. I’ve always saw Horvat, Petey, Hughes and Demko as the core to build around.

[Kobayashi Maru]

Definitely increasing his value but what about a swap for Kotkaniemi.  Carolina is competing now and we are obviously several years away.  We gain cost certainty and a player in what our new age group should be.  Carolina gets the more complete player in his prime to push them closer.

[Honourable Hughes]

8 minutes ago, Kobayashi Maru said:

Definitely increasing his value but what about a swap for Kotkaniemi.  Carolina is competing now and we are obviously several years away.  We gain cost certainty and a player in what our new age group should be.  Carolina gets the more complete player in his prime to push them closer.

No way.

[Coconuts]

9 minutes ago, Kobayashi Maru said:

Definitely increasing his value but what about a swap for Kotkaniemi.  Carolina is competing now and we are obviously several years away.  We gain cost certainty and a player in what our new age group should be.  Carolina gets the more complete player in his prime to push them closer.

Carolina would have to add

 

Can't say I'm high on him either 

[N4ZZY]

4 hours ago, Coconuts said:

Stuff like this is why the longer this goes on the more I believe Bo's side has management by the balls

 

 

 

Yep. Which isn't surprising why Bo hasn't signed yet. 

 

They honestly fucked up this off-season by signing JT first. 

 

Look where they're at now. FUCKED. 

 

This franchise, good grief. 

 

[Coconuts]

21 minutes ago, N4ZZY said:

Yep. Which isn't surprising why Bo hasn't signed yet. 

 

They honestly fucked up this off-season by signing JT first. 

 

Look where they're at now. FUCKED. 

 

This franchise, good grief. 

 

It sucks. I spent all summer arguing against signing Miller and now we're stuck with him, I argued the importance of Horvat and repeatedly explained how he's not a luxury for this team and now we're talking about trading him at the beginning of November.

 

I thought he'd be signed, we should have signed him first. I thought we'd be a fringe playoff team but I never thought it'd look this bad at this point. It sucks. 

 

Bo's being a machine out there, he's hot out the gate, he's showing up and doing his thing and we're awful. And what makes it worse is the more we lose the less I think he'll want to re-sign, he's come up with the Canucks mostly missing the playoffs and this season has been more losing. Even if he's loyal to Vancouver, and I'm sure he is, why would he want to stick around through what looks like could be another retool? Or an actual rebuild? 

 

At this point I wouldn't fault him for wanting to get a fresh start elsewhere. Boston would sign him, Pacioretty comes off the books this season, Carolina could easily sign him to be their 2C and he could go running with a contender. And honestly, I'd root for him. Despite the flack he's gotten over the years he's given us his best. 

Edited November 2, 2022 by Coconuts