[PGT] Trade Day Edition

[Alflives]

Just now, 24K PureCool said:

Aqua is only 54. We are f*cked. 

Booze my friend. Drink lots. That’s what happy Canuck’s do. 

[FaninMex]

2 minutes ago, Alflives said:

This is it exactly. Our owner has his direction set. Management has no choice (outside of being fired) of following that direction. Considering that’s management’s marching orders, getting ?Hronek (a 25 year old, high end, right shot 3 D) is a fantastic move. 

No. Having and understanding that the fanbase would never allow Hughes and Pettersson to walk after saying that they want no part of a rebuild. 

It is to retool or trade Hughes and Pettersson.

[Sharpshooter]

Just now, Alflives said:

Booze my friend. Drink lots. That’s what happy Canuck’s do. 

Macallan and Dalmore are my personal go-to’s. 
 

 

[Sharpshooter]

1 minute ago, FaninMex said:

No. Having and understanding that the fanbase would never allow Hughes and Pettersson to walk after saying that they want no part of a rebuild. 

It is to retool or trade Hughes and Pettersson.

Or possibly have them walk for nothing. 
 

 

[Roger Neilsons Towel]

16 minutes ago, Alflives said:

I don’t disagree with the timing. Much like when we got Miller. Good trade for value, but the time for the current state of the club was off. But our owner wants to build right now for next season. Patiently rebuilding through the draft doesn’t seem to be an option with him. 

On that, we can agree. Although I wish that wasn’t the case. We keep doing the same retool thing year after year and expecting different results. No wonder people are frustrated. 

[Bure_Pavel]

Very up and down trade deadline, liked majority of the moves. Hronek move left a bad taste in my mouth though. Was fine moving the NYI first for a right D but the high 2nd as well stung. The move for a top 4 RD was necessary though, our top 2 RD going into next year was Bear and Burroughs (with Myers likely gone). I think we will be OK for Cap next year if we can move Myers and Boeser + probably buy out Pearson in the offseason. There is no way to get a young established top 4 RD without a significant payment. Hronek was 11th in points and 25th in TOI out of all RD's in the league, he is more offensive minded though so we will have to see how he is defensively which is our biggest need.     

 

Grade C+

[Warhippy]

4 hours ago, chon derry said:

To Add to that the 1 rd pick they gave up for hronek was at 18 oa. And they weren’t sold on the players available in that range otherwise they would have kept the pick. Further pitts 1st rd pick at this moment sits further back at 19 oa. And the second 1st rd pick in next years puts it even further down the development path. Btw there’s only 1 dman avail in the middle of the 1 st rd. And the Russian kid ( gulyeyev) 

The islanders sit at the 16th OA pick right now.  As for defensemen in the first round?  What?  

 

There's 4-5 that are being discussed to be taken by pick 16.

[spur1]

1 hour ago, sxqhfeh said:

I'm convinced this is all coming from ownership and them wanting to accommodate our current good players and or get playoff revenue at all costs. Different management team and same shit every time

Look in the mirror. What are your expectations and are they realistic?

[Ilunga]

55 minutes ago, Roger Neilsons Towel said:

If that’s true, then he’s been following the wrong fit in Hronek for over a year, which is concerning in itself. We need a strong defensive defenseman on the right side to pair with Hughes. An undersized offensive defenseman in Hronek was not the hole we needed filled right now, and certainly not at that price. 

 

I was a bit doubtful about this trade to start with. 

First off trading for an injured player.

Second giving up 2 picks that will be in the first 40 picks in this year's draft. 

Third respect for Stevie Y's GM skills, why would he give up on Filip.

And fourth to a lesser extent I was doubtful he was what we truly needed, a top line shutdown D to play with Quinn.

 

After doing some research it seems Filip can play D as well.

 

https://www.dailyfaceoff.com/news/move-over-rod-langway-canes-jaccob-slavin-is-nhls-no-1-shutdown-defenseman

 

I know this is data and 

he gets an honourable mention outside of the top 20 players however combine that with his puck moving skills and shot. 

 

IMO he is a solid second pairing RHD, those are still hard to acquire. 

As for his size he is slightly bigger than Makar.

 

What does worry me is how much his next contract will be. 

I know he is an RFA so we will have some control. 

 

He is one of the pieces we need. 

The other 2 vital pieces are a true top pairing shutdown D to partner Quinn, and and second pairing LHD to partner Filip, he should be easier to acquire. 

 

@Elias Pettersson stated in another thread that if we found the right partner for Hughes he could win a Norris Trophy.

That illustrates that hockey is a team sport and it is about finding the right pieces and putting them together.

 

It also illustrates that these supposedly individual awards are rarely won by the individual himself, rather a team effort.

[Maniwaki Canuck]

1 hour ago, Roger Neilsons Towel said:

I despise Drance and am still underwhelmed with the job management has done so far. Nice try generalizing everyone that doesn’t agree with you though. 

Actually I can see both sides about what management is doing, especially over Miller, so it's not that.  All I'm commenting on here is how many people say they despise Drance while saying the same things he does.  It's not my problem to resolve, though. 

[Warhippy]

6 hours ago, MattWN. said:

We're not deep though.

 

Every single hockey expect with a prospect pool list has us firmly in the bottom 5.

30/32 - The Hockey Writers - https://thehockeywriters.com/nhl-farm-system-rankings/ 

28/32 - The Athletic - https://theathletic.com/3923067/2023/01/09/nhl-prospect-rankings-2023/

28/32 - Rinkside - https://eprinkside.com/category/prospect-pool-rankings

 

So unless all the major hockey writers are wrong, I would say you're massively overrating our prospects. 

People said the same things you are now when our top prospect was Patrick White, and Hunter Shinkaruk after that.

 

Our prospect pool is bad. It's shallow, and it's absolutely full of fringe prospects with little to no potential to be IMPACTFUL players.

 

We're deeper than we have been most years, but we've also only drafted once in the 1st round in the past 4 drafts. 

 

People like to look at this team through rose colored glasses, and to some extend I understand it.

But when it comes to this teams future, we're in trouble. There is no speculation there, it's a fact.

We aren't a win now team, we're not even a win tomorrow team. We're mortgaging our long term success to build on a extremely flawed roster.

 

Please somebody tell me what I'm missing, and how our prospect pool is "deep"

You're not wrong.  When you really consider things, it's kind of damning how successive management groups have committed to the same style of "retool" no matter what or how people want to avoid the comparison.

 

here's an interesting write up about our success vs our drafting over the last 5 years.  It's honestly insane!  I have written a number of long comments about our drafting and development successes leading all the way back to 2006.  We're about as bad as we've ever been and it is 100% not a one off.  When you strip Hughes, Peterson, Hoglander and maybe Podkolzin from the equation our ONLY draft success has been in the top 10 barring Hoglander; and even then we have to go as far back as Demko to see a draft year that actually had multiple drafted players.  

 

our prospect pool is bleak.  Like bleak.  Bloom and Raty were just traded for and despite their being expendable; they are almost immediately our best prospects.  Not sure how people can claim otherwise.

 

***

 

the impact of the Hronek trade on the Canucks’ future draft capital and how the trade positions them over the last five seasons among their peers. So, don’t worry; I won’t get too deep in the weeds on the Canucks’ seemingly irresistible urge to part ways with premium draft assets for immediate “win now” help. You’ve heard enough of that!

The problem is, these picks are valuable and crucial for roster construction. Even for the Canucks themselves, seven of their top 10 producers this season were drafted out of the first round! The other skaters listed on the roster (not named Mikheyev, Kuzmenko, or Dries) were former draft picks too, and 17 came from the 1st and 2nd rounds of the draft.

 

 

When discussing draft capital, it’s important to note that 13 of the club’s 20 current skaters who were drafted in the first two rounds made their NHL debut in the season following their draft (D1) or the year after (D2).

And yet, the question of “how soon quality draft picks contribute NHL minutes to their draft club” is constantly brought up. This year’s draft is loaded this year with NHL-ready talents available in the top 15. Trading picks at this juncture should always raise an eyebrow or two.

 

Just a simple overview of where the Canucks’ draft capital sits over the next three drafts and how the team has fared over the last five years in terms of total picks made in the rounds that matter most!

 

The next three drafts

 

While it would have been nice to see the Canucks draft the most picks out of the first two rounds in franchise history, Filip Hronek is an excellent defenceman who will look fantastic alongside Quinn Hughes down the stretch. The Canucks are currently 26th in the NHL by points percentage, but if those two find immediate chemistry at 5v5, that number could improve dramatically.

 

What impact did shedding a 1st, and a 2nd really have on the Canucks future? The defence looks better positioned with Hronek added to the fold, and with three firsts and a second in 2025 available, they’re still tied with the Rangers, Jets, Oilers, Devils, and Senators with the ninth-most combined draft picks in the first two rounds over the next three drafts

 

The only teams with fewer picks than Vancouver in the first two rounds are Colorado, Toronto, Florida, Boston, and Tampa Bay. One of these things is not like the other.

The last five drafts

 

Since 2018-19, the Canucks have drafted as many players from the first two rounds of the draft as the New York Islanders, Pittsburgh Penguins, Boston Bruins, and Tampa Bay Lightning. We highlighted the names of the last 10 Stanley Cup Champions to show the good company that Vancouver is keeping at the draft.

 

After finishing 9th-last in the 2018-19 season, the Canucks traded a 1st-round pick for J.T. Miller. Vancouver then finished the 2019-20 season in 17th place in the NHL. In the process, the club traded a 2nd-round pick for Tyler Toffoli, resulting in a play-in series win against the Minnesota Wild and a quarterfinal defeat of the St. Louis Blues in the bubble playoffs.

 

After a little speedbump in 2020-21, the Canucks traded a 1st, 2nd, 7th, Loui Eriksson, Antoine Roussel, and Jay Beagle for Oliver Ekman-Larsson and the rights to Conor Garland. Vancouver then finished the 2021-22 season in 18th place.

 

In 2022-23, the team shipped a 2nd-round pick alongside Jason Dickinson for cap savings and Riley Stillman and have now jettisoned a 1st and 2nd for Hronek.

While it’s too early and unfair to judge the Canucks on the decision to move on from two top-40 picks, the Canucks have had some success in mining underutilized talent from other teams using their draft picks this season.

 

Since preaching a 1-2 year return-to-contention timeline, the organization has acquired nine players, a conditional 1st, a 3rd, and a conditional 4th round pick.

All it cost was a conditional first, two 2nd-round picks, a 3rd, the singing rights to a recently drafted right-shot defenceman, the team captain, and five other players of inconsequential value.

 

The team is currently 27th in the NHL by points percentage, and is slated to draft the same number of impact players as contending teams around the league. There’s still time left until the deadline, but don’t scoff at fans who question the timing and assets the Canucks chose to give up yesterday.

The Canucks have drafted and now look slated to continue to draft as if they’re a contending team. This would be great if this strategy ever worked for them, but for now, it appears like the Canucks are keying in on continuing the same cycle started by the last management regime.

***

 

Interesting take and honestly kind of hard to believe.

[Warhippy]

Thread updated for accuracy and added content via post trade deadline from management.

[chon derry]

34 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

The islanders sit at the 16th OA pick right now.  As for defensemen in the first round?  What?  

 

There's 4-5 that are being discussed to be taken by pick 16.

There’s actually 6 available in the first round. 32oa. 29, 28, 26, 15, 11.  As of last nite the isles pick sat at 17oa.  So the moot point or question would be hypothetical. Why would they draft any thing at 26, 28, 29 , or 32 ?  And they wouldn’t have been able to capture the 11 th. So that would of only have left the 15th for them. But once again it’s moot because the pick is Detroit’s now. Edit. Rankings do change. And available dman could drop but typically most teams are left to picking BPA. Which wouldn’t have addressed positional needs. And might be part of the reasoning for the trade? 

Edited March 4, 2023 by chon derry

[NewbieCanuckFan]

25 minutes ago, Roger Neilsons Towel said:

On that, we can agree. Although I wish that wasn’t the case. We keep doing the same retool thing year after year and expecting different results. No wonder people are frustrated. 

Some really old dead guy said that.  

 

“The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.”

 

 

 

[Sharpshooter]

21 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

The islanders sit at the 16th OA pick right now.  As for defensemen in the first round?  What?  

 

There's 4-5 that are being discussed to be taken by pick 16.

And when they inevitably fall into protected pick status, then what? 

[bh90]

44 minutes ago, Toews said:

He was also the guy who sent him packing. I also don't think Yzerman was unilaterally making decisions there, he was relying on his scouting team. I don't believe Yzerman is infallible I just think that based on his track record as a GM, I trust his judgement far more than I do Alvin's. 

No doubt Yzerman is an accomplished GM but I wouldn't call him a great talent evaluator.

 

He did strike gold with Point, Cirrelli , Palat, Kucherov and Vasilevsky but, other than those picks his draft selections as a GM of TB were questionable. He also picked a lot of the guys I listed below before he selected Kucherov, Cirelli  etc.. so there's a bit of luck to getting the guys he did too.

 

With 1st and 2nd round picks he selected DeAngelo, Connolly, Drouin, Koekkoek, Namensnistikov, Blujus, Hart, Erne, Macleod, Mason, Spencer, Stephen's, Yan, Katchouk, Raddysh, Howden, Hajek, Volkov, Fortier.

 

Overall about 50 of the 60 draft selections he made turned out as complete busts and alot of those were high picks.

 

He has also made questionable trades and given questionable extensions to players he than had to pay assets to move out (I.e. Callahan and etc).

 

Point I'm trying to make no GM will ever be perfect. So there's no reason to think that maybe Yzerman undervalued Hronek.

[McBackup]

5 minutes ago, NewbieCanuckFan said:

Some really old dead guy said that.  

 

“The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.”

 

Good lord I hate that quote.

[Gnarcore]

2 hours ago, Roger Neilsons Towel said:

Perhaps the people that disagree with the team direction do so without differentiating what part of the direction comes from ownership and what comes from management.
 

We’ve been retooling for a decade. I used to be on board, and even defended that position in the past, however it hasn’t yielded results. If the plan isn’t working, then it’s time to change the plan. 

Nah.....it has to work eventually...maybe the 37th retool when FA's kid is trying to win it all for HIS dad....

[Sharpshooter]

4 minutes ago, Gnarcore said:

Nah.....it has to work eventually...maybe the 37th retool when FA's kid is trying to win it all for HIS dad....

[Dr. Crossbar]

I guess we picked the wrong week to quit making trades ...