[discussion] 3C targets for next season

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, DrJockitch said:

Your right. I saw JTM gassed with every shift and making ill-advised drop passes and assumed that a professional hockey player should be able to do better especially after signing massive contract. 
‘I was also more responding to Alf’s constant reference to Bo being fat when he was a leader from a fitness perspective, it was somewhat tongue in cheek.
Just because he moved on I don’t think we should be attacking Bo so much. He was a consummate pro here. He raised his game in the playoffs both in junior and the chance we were gifted here. He was a very valuable, quality player who did what few do on this team fought his way to the net.  People put expectations that he should be a defensive centre, pure goal scoring goon and if he didn’t fill all those roles at once he was a dispassionate failure. 
‘I have said again and again I like what JT brings on the wing. He is good forechecker, good offensive contributor and it limits the damage of his defensive play.  At C he has put a few good games together this year but also got pushed back to wing most of the year for a reason.  My problem here was that this team is not a player or two away and we aren’t a season or two away from contention. JTM will be on the downswing by the time we can be a solid playoff contender and the offers for him were rumoured to be pretty good and the assets would have better matched where this team really is.  So far having him here has not lead to any measurable success.  Being a better non playoff team during a rebuild/tool is not the path to contention. 
‘I think the management group has mostly done a good job with trades and additions.  I am looking forward to seeing what they do with college UFAs. 
I also think they have made a lot of mistakes but like their ability to move on from them. We have covered the bases on the numerous PR issues through this season.  
I just see them walking down the same path as Benning but doing it with better pro scouting and generally more competence. I think there in lies the ultimate mistake a constant push to scrape into the playoffs rather than taking a patient path to being a contender. 
 

If we didn't have EP and QHs yes blow the entire thing up.   You might get your wish eventually anyways if the re-tool fails.   You'd also get your wish this summer as in QHs wanting out and EP refusing to sign if the team isn't taking steps to get better.   Reality is the idea of a rebuild behind these guys makes a ton of sense until the context is added they don't want to spend the next couple seasons as bottom feeders waiting for lottery tickets.    So rebuild isn't in the cards.  Has nothing to do about the owner (sorry Alf),  and yes maybe it has something to do about patience.   In the end Horvat went to one of the oldest teams in the league near the end of their cycle what does that say about "wanting to win" (as an aside - Horvat cares mostly about stability and $$$$, so do a lot of other players).   I'm glad QHs said something, and the Miller hates losing,  and that Tochett is running things now.   Hate to lose is better then whatever the heck JB tried to do - but you can't go there without also giving him some props too.   He did draft two guys that probably end up in the rafters win lose or draw.    Yzerman is still looking for that isn't he? 

[Ballisticsports.]

12 hours ago, DrJockitch said:

Needs to come from within which leaves Raty or for cheap. More UFA bargain bins, Euro FAs or college FAs. 
Personally I like a Kravtsov-Raty-Podz kid line. Don’t want to push him though if he is not ready, rather have him winning in Abby than losing in Van if not ready. 

I think so as well, unless you are filling that position moving Garland or Boeser

[DrJockitch]

13 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Sundins career wasn't wasted.   Only other TO team to get over 100 points and that was without loser points either - they were a legit threat just had their complex with Alfie and co which was great at the time.   Now it's a better team just getting boned with the quality of competition in their own division.   Didn't the WCE era have the same problems?   Yes they did.    Cloutier couldn't stop a beach ball and despite being a contender (weren't the favourite but were listed as one 2-3 years),  had some trouble didn't we too.     Have zero interest in the Shanny plan.   That's 100% based on lottery luck and the same stupid plan EDM had for over a decade until McDavid.     There isn't a perfect lane.  Yzerman who most thinks shit don't stink said as much lately.    As long as the plan is executed we have a chance.    

I get tired of hearing about Edmonton having that plan. Edmonton had our plan they just had lottery luck. They were trying to be a playoff team all along they were just incompetent. 
At least the Leafs eventually recognized the folly of the plan we are following and corrected course. They just happened to get lottery luck along the way.  They also made their own luck by doing things to maximize chances  of winning lottery or picking high at least. 

Edited March 8, 2023 by DrJockitch

[IBatch]

8 minutes ago, DrJockitch said:

I get tired of hearing about Edmonton having that plan. Edmonton had our plan they just had lottery luck. They were trying to be a playoff team all along they were just incompetent. 
At least the Leafs eventually recognized the folly of the plan we are following and corrected course. They just happened to get lottery luck along the way.  They also made their own luck by doing things to maximize chances  of winning lottery or picking high at least. 

So your plan is to trade EP, Demko and QHs?   It's not a terrible plan I don't have the answers either.   But scortched Earth means just that - and it's exactly what TO did. 

Edited March 8, 2023 by IBatch

[Kobayashi Maru]

Still hoping for Miller for Kotkaniemi, Morrow and a 1st in the offseason, but if we target UFAs I would think it would be:

Ryan O'Reilly

Sean Monahan

Jordan Staal

 

All likely reasonable contracts based on age and could step in as 2C if needed from time to time especially if Raty is ready and consistent.

[Nucker 67]

13 hours ago, Alflives said:

We have zero interest in Jost. He’s not a right shot and he’s not even decent defensively. We will get us a #3C who is a right shot and excellent defensively. He will be good on the PK too. 

I'm not a fan, but Jost will be a UFA and is under 25 (will be 25 next week). He's a C,  selected at #10 in the 2016 Draft, and didn't live up to his hype, traded twice. Maybe a good reclamation project. And he's cheap.

 

 

 

Edited March 8, 2023 by NUCKER67

[DrJockitch]

24 minutes ago, IBatch said:

So your plan is to trade EP, Demko and QHs?   It's not a terrible plan I don't have the answers either.   But scortched Earth means just that - and it's exactly what TO did. 

Not at all, have never said that, quite the opposite in fact. 
TO wasn’t in the position we are, to use Sundin again, we are in the position they were when they had a young Sundin, instead of making a directed build around them they just tried the add a piece hear, then next season try to fill the next gap, then next season try to fill the next gap. 
Most Canadian teams have followed the same plan for decades, “our fans are sophisticated and so won’t take a rebuild so every year we push to be a playoff team” and the end result of that is no Canadian championship teams in decades. A smart focused plan to build around EP and QH are what we need and we are still coming short of that with the constant mortgage the future to add one more piece so that we can scrape in next year.

We are not 2 players away. Look at TBs lineup compared to ours. Every line is better, every d pairing is better and goaltending is better.  Look at Colorado last year every line was better, every d pairing was better, goaltending wasn’t as good. If we want to build a championship calibre team this is not the way.

[IBatch]

14 minutes ago, DrJockitch said:

Not at all, have never said that, quite the opposite in fact. 
TO wasn’t in the position we are, to use Sundin again, we are in the position they were when they had a young Sundin, instead of making a directed build around them they just tried the add a piece hear, then next season try to fill the next gap, then next season try to fill the next gap. 
Most Canadian teams have followed the same plan for decades, “our fans are sophisticated and so won’t take a rebuild so every year we push to be a playoff team” and the end result of that is no Canadian championship teams in decades. A smart focused plan to build around EP and QH are what we need and we are still coming short of that with the constant mortgage the future to add one more piece so that we can scrape in next year.

We are not 2 players away. Look at TBs lineup compared to ours. Every line is better, every d pairing is better and goaltending is better.  Look at Colorado last year every line was better, every d pairing was better, goaltending wasn’t as good. If we want to build a championship calibre team this is not the way.

But you're missing a key metric.   Unlike COL, QHs at least isn't willing to be patient enough.   EPs also hinted.   They don't want to wait around 3-4 years for a rebuild to click.   If you haven't watched the interviews, then maybe consider it.  COL is a pipe dream.   Yes they did put themselves into that position on purpose - trading Barrie and Duchene (one for a second line C in Kadri).    Also drafted Makar.   Traded for Girard.   Traded for Toews and Manson.   And absolutely had a quick turn around - Mckinnon was paid properly for what he'd done up until then, then exploded.   It's a good case study in what actually has to go right.   Duchene for best odds of first overall to a team that was one goal away from the final and then imploded.   

 

Get the frustration.   We should have won at least one cup with the Sedins.   Didn't happen either.   Best team since expansion not to win a cup really.    TB won't even get into their cap structure - it will never ever ever happen with a Canadian team.   Sure nice to have 16-17% more cap to play with isn't it? 

[mll]

10 hours ago, KKnight said:

Hartman & 2nd for Boeser (15% retention) 

The Wild had more than ample cap space to trade for Boeser this TDL yet they passed.  They added for over 13M of contracts and still had more than enough cap space to keep Greenway had they wanted to.  Every report is that with 14.7M in dead cap for the coming 2 seasons the Wild can't see themselves adding term let alone Boeser even at 50% retained.

 

It also wouldn't be worth it for Vancouver when they have to retain 50% if not more through a 3rd party broker.  Guerin has made it clear that he doesn't want to give up key assets with that much dead cap on the books and talks of needing to continue to add to their prospect pool.  He sees their window opening wide only once those buyouts are off the books.  He added this TLD but also managed to improve their draft picks - ie they got more value back than what they gave up.  

 

Hartman is the Wild C1, which is not ideal, but they've tried others and he's been the best fit so far.  It would likely cost quite a bit of futures to pry him away given the position he fills and his 1.7M cap hit.  Not evident to fill that spot at a lesser cost.  

 

[HKSR]

14 hours ago, DrJockitch said:

Needs to come from within which leaves Raty or for cheap. More UFA bargain bins, Euro FAs or college FAs. 
Personally I like a Kravtsov-Raty-Podz kid line. Don’t want to push him though if he is not ready, rather have him winning in Abby than losing in Van if not ready. 

I'd say start Raty on the 4th line.  Zero pressure, all he has to do is learn the pace of the game in the NHL, and try and keep the play in the offensive end along the boards. 

 

Give Aman the 3C role and see what he does with it.  I think there's a bit more to Aman's game.  He has the size and speed, and surprisingly a bit of an offensive touch to go with it. 

[DrJockitch]

19 minutes ago, IBatch said:

But you're missing a key metric.   Unlike COL, QHs at least isn't willing to be patient enough.   EPs also hinted.   They don't want to wait around 3-4 years for a rebuild to click.   If you haven't watched the interviews, then maybe consider it.  COL is a pipe dream.   Yes they did put themselves into that position on purpose - trading Barrie and Duchene (one for a second line C in Kadri).    Also drafted Makar.   Traded for Girard.   Traded for Toews and Manson.   And absolutely had a quick turn around - Mckinnon was paid properly for what he'd done up until then, then exploded.   It's a good case study in what actually has to go right.   Duchene for best odds of first overall to a team that was one goal away from the final and then imploded.   

 

Get the frustration.   We should have won at least one cup with the Sedins.   Didn't happen either.   Best team since expansion not to win a cup really.    TB won't even get into their cap structure - it will never ever ever happen with a Canadian team.   Sure nice to have 16-17% more cap to play with isn't it? 

What else was QH going to say. Give him a few more years of mediocrity and he will say how he chose to move on to a team with a chance of winning. 
‘Players only care about the right now. They don’t care about pics or prospects if they aren’t improving the big club now. 

[Canucks Curse]

Miller is killing it, so trading him could leave a major void, he is PPG plus a beast defensively and it sounds like he is feeling better and there is some chemistry building

 

3Cs

JT compher

Evan Rodrigues

Barbashev 

ROR

 

all great choice, will need to clear cap they will be looking for 4 mill+ other than Rodrigues who may come in Lower, I could see JT comfier and RPR wanting 5mill +

[BPA]

4 hours ago, -DLC- said:

LOL...if that was "fat" Miller, he scored right out of the gate so it didn't seem to matter.

 

I love Bo but you're also really showing a bias against JT and making a story about a guy "fat and out of sync". He had some moments for sure...but it's not like everyone else on the team didn't also. They were all out of sync.

 

JT brings an element that Bo lacked in....the grit and push back that is really important on this team. 

 

It's not about the personal growth (only), but also what you're willing to sacrifice for the team. I did not like Bo turning his head and skating by...even if it was for "discipline's" sake. I want a guy like JT who gets riled up by stuff and doesn't just accept it. We've seen that side of JT recently and with Schenn gone that's an important element that would be missing.

 

You are talking about "this" team without considering the additions that have been made recently. It's not the same team as the start of the year.

 

You're also trying to set up a story about JT that really is showing your bias but not all of us buy it.

 

Admittedly Miller was a near ppg at the start of the season.  But his defensive awareness was atrocious.  
 

However I think Tocchet straightened him out.  Lately, I haven’t seen many lazy passes and giving up on the play that earned the ire of some fans.

 

 

[AK_19]

Blueger would probably fit our budget. Based on what i've seen on Raty, it seems clear he will be ahl bound next year. 

[Elias Pettersson]

4 hours ago, -DLC- said:

LOL...if that was "fat" Miller, he scored right out of the gate so it didn't seem to matter.

 

I love Bo but you're also really showing a bias against JT and making a story about a guy "fat and out of sync". He had some moments for sure...but it's not like everyone else on the team didn't also. They were all out of sync.

 

JT brings an element that Bo lacked in....the grit and push back that is really important on this team. 

 

It's not about the personal growth (only), but also what you're willing to sacrifice for the team. I did not like Bo turning his head and skating by...even if it was for "discipline's" sake. I want a guy like JT who gets riled up by stuff and doesn't just accept it. We've seen that side of JT recently and with Schenn gone that's an important element that would be missing.

 

You are talking about "this" team without considering the additions that have been made recently. It's not the same team as the start of the year.

 

You're also trying to set up a story about JT that really is showing your bias but not all of us buy it.

 

I can’t believe after watching Miller these past few weeks under Tocchet that some people would still try and use the schtick that Miller is the cancer on the team and the root problem. It’s laughable really. The guy literally went after 6’3” Smith and beat the sh*t out of him after he messed around with some of our players. And he did this right after the game where he destroyed Auston Matthews and made him completely irrelevant while playing shinny with Petey on the PK with 2 PK goals to put the Maple Leafs fans at Rogers Arena out of their misery. 
 

Miller is becoming a true leader on this team and it’s not coincidental that we are playing our best hockey of the season during this time. The elephant in the room is gone. Some people need to come to terms with that. 

[IBatch]

3 hours ago, DrJockitch said:

What else was QH going to say. Give him a few more years of mediocrity and he will say how he chose to move on to a team with a chance of winning. 
‘Players only care about the right now. They don’t care about pics or prospects if they aren’t improving the big club now. 

I've watched the Horvat, Henrik and Naslund say enough diplomatic things to find it quite refreshing, get a forthright answer.  EPs comments at the all-star game were also well thought out and measured, not mundane robotic run of the mill statements.  Take away was he'd like to be a Canuck if they  fixed the D.   Tough to do 3-4 years best case via the draft.   Ohlund was drafted in 94.   Hedican and Aucion were better after they left.   It takes a lot of time. 

 

We are actually on the same side Mr. Itch.   Was also hoping for a total rebuild, around QHs and EP.   But get that's not in the cards.   They don't want it, or have the same patience you and I have.    Reality is a bitch.   Maybe eventually we trade both and go there.   That for sure is in the cards if they flop the re-tool. 

Edited March 8, 2023 by IBatch

[86Viking]

18 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

How exactly would Barbashev be our 3C and even replace Miller in the lineup when he has only taken 140 faceoffs this year?

Chill...don't kill the messenger. 

 

Was just mentioned as a player who has same agent as all our canuck russians. I have no clue if he actually played C  full time or rarely!?

 

I am not advocating we run out and do it, was just speculated. Canucks don't have cap flexibility to get a player like Barbashev we did that last summer with Mikheyev.

 

 

[DownUndaCanuck]

Allvin clearly wants younger guys, ideally in the 24-26 year old range.

 

Monahan will be an interesting guy, likely a 2C on most bad teams or 3C on good teams, he's getting paid 6+ mil right now but has always scored at around a 40-60 point pace. We really can't afford to pay a 3C over 5M though.

 

I wouldn't mind Kerfoot if we can sign him for 3-4M, and he's only 27. My personal favourites would be Puis Suter or Sundqvist at around the same price. Young guys, not scoring loads and Sundqvist has said he wants to test free agency despite his trade. Barbashev and Athanasiou are two other good options, as are Jost and Kampf.

 

Basically, Allvin has to get on these and has no excuse not to. No need to trade for one when there's so many good UFA options. We're going to be in cap hell next year with all our injured guys back though so someone's going to have to go, but honestly we'd be a better team even if we traded Boeser or Garland for next to nothing and acquired one of these 3Cs. 

[Junkyard Dog]

First thing he needs to do is clear cap.

[spook007]

On 3/8/2023 at 8:58 PM, IBatch said:

I've watched the Horvat, Henrik and Naslund say enough diplomatic things to find it quite refreshing, get a forthright answer.  EPs comments at the all-star game were also well thought out and measured, not mundane robotic run of the mill statements.  Take away was he'd like to be a Canuck if they  fixed the D.   Tough to do 3-4 years best case via the draft.   Ohlund was drafted in 94.   Hedican and Aucion were better after they left.   It takes a lot of time. 

 

We are actually on the same side Mr. Itch.   Was also hoping for a total rebuild, around QHs and EP.   But get that's not in the cards.   They don't want it, or have the same patience you and I have.    Reality is a bitch.   Maybe eventually we trade both and go there.   That for sure is in the cards if they flop the re-tool. 

Exactly... we have 2-3 years to play with... If we still suck, Petey may force their hand, and in that case they may as well deal from a position of strength and start over...