Jonathan Dahlén | C/LW

[Silky mitts]

Chances he lands with Elias pettersons team?

[UticaHockey]

1 hour ago, JamesB said:

 

Was wondering if this might happen (Dahlen to Europe), especially after his name did not appear on the Utica roster posted a couple of days ago.

 

The comment by @Rob_Zepp makes sense, but I think the logjam at wing in Utica is also highly relevant. The idea of sending top prospects to Utica is to "get lots of minutes" and "play in all situations". But Dahlen was going to have a hard time earning a spot as a winger on the top two lines.

 

Assuming Chaput and Megna play center, my depth chart at wing in Utica goes something like this:

 

1. Rodin

2. Goldobin

3. Archibald (yes he can play in the bottom 6 but he led the team in scoring last year and has earned a top 6 spot if anyone has)

4. Boucher

5. Molino

 

Rodin is a former SHL MVP, so he has to ahead of Dahlen, and Goldobin, Archie and Boucher have already proven themselves to be very successful AHL players. And, while Dahlen has more potential than Molino, he is younger and probably further away. I would also expect these guys to dominate the PP winger spots. And when Gaunce gets healthy that probably takes up another spot (either Gaunce himself or someone else gets sent down from the Canucks). And guys like Carcone and D'Aoust are also contending for spots as wingers on the top two lines. Once again, Dahlen is a better long run prospect but he is younger.

 

And I am not sure it is a good idea for Dahlen to play in the bottom 6 in Utica. Also, coming off mono he is probably not feeling his best and as suggested by @Canuck Surfer, being closer to home is probably a positive -- better than being being stuck in Utica playing limited minutes, especially if his energy level is still low.

 

We will have to wait until next year for him to really learn the North American version of the game (smaller rinks, etc.), but that is okay and does not seem like a big cost.

 

It would be nice to see him reunited with Pettersson if that is possible.

I respectfully disagree and here is why.  This to me is the difference between management in Vancouver and Toronto.  If Dahlen was a prospect in the Leafs system you can bet he would be with the Marlies right now just like William Nylander before him and 18 year old Timothy Liljegren who the Comets will face this weekend.  In Vancouver they let the kid have too much influence where he will play where in Toronto management determines what is best for the organization.

 

You thinking that the logjam of left wings in Utica might have pushed him towards Sweden but I say its just the opposite.  In Utica he would be playing for the Canucks coaching staff hired to develop their prospects.  In Sweden he will be playing for a coaching staff with no ties to Vancouver and more concerned with wins and losses than developing NHL prospects.  In Utica he would develop under the systems that the Canucks hired staff want to teach.  In Sweden...not the case.  In Utica he would be learning the North American game and again in Sweden....not the case.

 

I see this as weakness by Vancouver management for not taking complete control of the development of a high end prospect and any discussion otherwise is just rationalization of weakness.

 

This to me is Dahlen realizing that the likelihood of playing in the NHL this year is slim and he wanted to go back and play closer to home with the added benefit of being able to earn more than AHL money.  This is a decision in the interest of a teenage kid and not necessarily in the interest of the Canucks.

[GoodCanadianKideh]

Hopefully he keeps developing chemistry with Elias Pettersson on the Växjö Lakers and gets top line playing time!

 

If not, maybe he gets sent to TPS Turku and starts developing chemistry with Petrus Palmu and Olli Juolevi!

[Crabcakes]

Questions.

 

Does this have something to do with mono?  Sometimes it can take a very long time to regain your strength fully.  Months and months.....close to a year?  Is this move an effort to give him playing time in a less physical league?  Because his father, former NHLer Ulf Dahlen, had counseled him to play in the AHL.  That's what they both wanted to do.

 

So is it all about the ice time that he wouldn't be getting because of Utica depth?

 

Or, all of the above?

 

 

 

 

[JamesB]

5 hours ago, Alflives said:

Do you think it was either SHL or ECHL?  I remember Burr came from the ECHL and he was (as we all know) a heck of a good player.  Maybe the ECHL would be better for development?

The ECHL is more physical and obviously is played on the smaller North American ice surface. But the SHL is generally regarded as much better in terms of skill level. So I doubt if the ECHL was under consideration.

3 hours ago, UticaHockey said:

I respectfully disagree and here is why.  This to me is the difference between management in Vancouver and Toronto.  If Dahlen was a prospect in the Leafs system you can bet he would be with the Marlies right now just like William Nylander before him and 18 year old Timothy Liljegren who the Comets will face this weekend.  In Vancouver they let the kid have too much influence where he will play where in Toronto management determines what is best for the organization.

 

You thinking that the logjam of left wings in Utica might have pushed him towards Sweden but I say its just the opposite.  In Utica he would be playing for the Canucks coaching staff hired to develop their prospects.  In Sweden he will be playing for a coaching staff with no ties to Vancouver and more concerned with wins and losses than developing NHL prospects.  In Utica he would develop under the systems that the Canucks hired staff want to teach.  In Sweden...not the case.  In Utica he would be learning the North American game and again in Sweden....not the case.

 

I see this as weakness by Vancouver management for not taking complete control of the development of a high end prospect and any discussion otherwise is just rationalization of weakness.

 

This to me is Dahlen realizing that the likelihood of playing in the NHL this year is slim and he wanted to go back and play closer to home with the added benefit of being able to earn more than AHL money.  This is a decision in the interest of a teenage kid and not necessarily in the interest of the Canucks.

 

2 hours ago, Crabcakes said:

Questions.

 

Does this have something to do with mono?  Sometimes it can take a very long time to regain your strength fully.  Months and months.....close to a year?  Is this move an effort to give him playing time in a less physical league?  Because his father, former NHLer Ulf Dahlen, had counseled him to play in the AHL.  That's what they both wanted to do.

 

So is it all about the ice time that he wouldn't be getting because of Utica depth?

 

Or, all of the above?

 

 

 

 

Good point by @UticaHockey. Obviously I have a different theory, but I appreciate reading a thoughtful comment that could be the right answer.

 

However, as @Crabcakes says, it could be all of the above. It is quite likely that, under the circumstances (recovering from mono), Dahlen prefers to be back in Sweden. Chances are the mono will set back his development for a while anyway and he probably would feel more comfortable closer to home. But the Canucks might have been willing to along with it in part because they have so many good wingers in Utica, especially left wing (although most of those guys can play on either wing in a pinch).

 

But even if Dahlen was 100%, Rodin would have to be top priority for PP time and first line minutes as the Canucks are probably hoping he helps them make a playoff push this season. Goldy has to be next in line -- a guy who is very close to making the NHL.Ditto for Boucher. The Canucks are probably happy to be able to give those guys lots of premium ice time. And it is hard to maintain credibility without giving Archie some prime ice time. And Dahlen would be competing with a bunch of other guys as well, even if he was healthy. It is true that wherever he goes in Sweden won't be thinking about his development as much as winning games, but the Canucks might be able to find a spot for him with a team that could really use his skill set. And if does not get much ice time at first, that is probably a good thing as he recovers from mono.

 

And I don't really see a problem with treating players well. Benning has tried to go out of his way to provide some benefits to players (including one-way deals for a bunch of guys headed to Utica) -- more so than most GMs. But I am not sure that is a bad strategy.

[Crabcakes]

43 minutes ago, JamesB said:

The ECHL is more physical and obviously is played on the smaller North American ice surface. But the SHL is generally regarded as much better in terms of skill level. So I doubt if the ECHL was under consideration.

 

Good point by @UticaHockey. Obviously I have a different theory, but I appreciate reading a thoughtful comment that could be the right answer.

 

However, as @Crabcakes says, it could be all of the above. It is quite likely that, under the circumstances (recovering from mono), Dahlen prefers to be back in Sweden. Chances are the mono will set back his development for a while anyway and he probably would feel more comfortable closer to home. But the Canucks might have been willing to along with it in part because they have so many good wingers in Utica, especially left wing (although most of those guys can play on either wing in a pinch).

 

But even if Dahlen was 100%, Rodin would have to be top priority for PP time and first line minutes as the Canucks are probably hoping he helps them make a playoff push this season. Goldy has to be next in line -- a guy who is very close to making the NHL.Ditto for Boucher. The Canucks are probably happy to be able to give those guys lots of premium ice time. And it is hard to maintain credibility without giving Archie some prime ice time. And Dahlen would be competing with a bunch of other guys as well, even if he was healthy. It is true that wherever he goes in Sweden won't be thinking about his development as much as winning games, but the Canucks might be able to find a spot for him with a team that could really use his skill set. And if does not get much ice time at first, that is probably a good thing as he recovers from mono.

 

And I don't really see a problem with treating players well. Benning has tried to go out of his way to provide some benefits to players (including one-way deals for a bunch of guys headed to Utica) -- more so than most GMs. But I am not sure that is a bad strategy.

I think that you're getting at some of the difficulty that management has in deciding on who gets the breaks and who doesn't.  Who gets priority etc

 

I don't think Benning is playing Santa with  Aquilini money when he signs various contracts.  This is the price of the kind of depth that they want.  All parties are always negotiating for the best contracts they can get.  You get what you pay for.  Management and ownership get this.

 

We obviously know less than Canuck management.  Dahlen going back to Sweden for the season is good asset management.  We all really want to know why but they're not about to tell all nor are they obliged to.

 

  

Edited October 7, 2017 by Crabcakes

[Canuck Surfer]

7 hours ago, JamesB said:

 

Was wondering if this might happen (Dahlen to Europe), especially after his name did not appear on the Utica roster posted a couple of days ago.

 

The comment by @Rob_Zepp makes sense, but I think the logjam at wing in Utica is also highly relevant. The idea of sending top prospects to Utica is to "get lots of minutes" and "play in all situations". But Dahlen was going to have a hard time earning a spot as a winger on the top two lines.

 

Assuming Chaput and Megna play center, my depth chart at wing in Utica goes something like this:

 

1. Rodin

2. Goldobin

3. Archibald (yes he can play in the bottom 6 but he led the team in scoring last year and has earned a top 6 spot if anyone has)

4. Boucher

5. Molino

 

Rodin is a former SHL MVP, so he has to ahead of Dahlen, and Goldobin, Archie and Boucher have already proven themselves to be very successful AHL players. And, while Dahlen has more potential than Molino, he is younger and probably further away. I would also expect these guys to dominate the PP winger spots. And when Gaunce gets healthy that probably takes up another spot (either Gaunce himself or someone else gets sent down from the Canucks). And guys like Carcone and D'Aoust are also contending for spots as wingers on the top two lines. Once again, Dahlen is a better long run prospect but he is younger.

 

And I am not sure it is a good idea for Dahlen to play in the bottom 6 in Utica. Also, coming off mono he is probably not feeling his best and as suggested by @Canuck Surfer, being closer to home is probably a positive -- better than being being stuck in Utica playing limited minutes, especially if his energy level is still low.

 

We will have to wait until next year for him to really learn the North American version of the game (smaller rinks, etc.), but that is okay and does not seem like a big cost.

 

It would be nice to see him reunited with Pettersson if that is possible.

This was an excellent post James.  Lots of good discussion points!

 

Critical issue; was he ready for the AHL? Return to health from mono inclusive... Even if he was. Would the staff in Utica be prepared to get him into a Top 6 role. When fundamentally he will not have been able to have participated in any degree at their training camp? 

 

If there was doubt as to him playing top 6 AHL minutes > there is too many other positives about being back home.

 

Although I take on board R Zepp's suggestion it may / probably would have been better to amp up Dahlen for the competitive way hockey is played here. And him going home is a sign, probably the mono, that he is not quite there?

 

 

[DrJockitch]

13 hours ago, GoodCanadianKideh said:

Hopefully he keeps developing chemistry with Elias Pettersson on the Växjö Lakers and gets top line playing time!

 

If not, maybe he gets sent to TPS Turku and starts developing chemistry with Petrus Palmu and Olli Juolevi!

I was thinking same thing, hoping he ends up playing with one of those teams.

[Putgolzin]

His 20th birthday is late December, that disqualifies him for World Juniors, right?

[flickyoursedin]

I think this is just a case of sharing the minutes. The Canucks have a lot of NHL potential playing on the wings in Utica. There’s familiarity with Dahlen and playing overseas so instead of diluting the minutes of the crowded Utica top 6 why not just send Dahlen back to Europe to play with Pettersson.

[nergish]

I wanted Dahlen in Utica for selfish reasons, but he was not going to get the ice time required for him to keep developing at his torrid pace. I still believe he has the potential to be the most hyped young player in all of Sweden this season, and that’s what we want for him right now: Goals, cellies, local fame, blonde women, etc.

 

The only bummer is that he could conceivably lead the SHL in goals and STILL be a question mark for NA hockey, because his size/strength is what’s in question, not his skill.

 

If he plays with Pettersson, look out. That’s not just fun for our fanbase, that’s fun for Swedish hockey on the whole.

Edited October 8, 2017 by nergish

[Gaudette Celly]

 

[SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME]

Linköping HC can definitely use the help.

 

Plus this move will allow Dahlén to play with notable Canucks/Comets alumni like Derek Roy, Andrew Gordon, Chad Billins, and Patrick Mullen.  

[UticaHockey]

32 minutes ago, SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME said:

Linköping HC can definitely use the help.

 

Plus this move will allow Dahlén to play with notable Canucks/Comets alumni like Derek Roy, Andrew Gordon, Chad Billins, and Patrick Mullen.  

I don't know how Derek Roy is at this point in his career or much of anything about Andrew Gordan but I can tell you that Chad Billins and Patrick Mullen are not even good AHL players.  I don't see how this is a better situation for the Canucks over having Dahlen playing in North America for their coaching staf in the AHL. 

[richado]

41 minutes ago, SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME said:

Linköping HC can definitely use the help.

 

Plus this move will allow Dahlén to play with notable Canucks/Comets alumni like Derek Roy, Andrew Gordon, Chad Billins, and Patrick Mullen.  

Maybe Roy-baby can make him Dahlen-baby?

[SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME]

39 minutes ago, UticaHockey said:

I don't know how Derek Roy is at this point in his career or much of anything about Andrew Gordan but I can tell you that Chad Billins and Patrick Mullen are not even good AHL players.  I don't see how this is a better situation for the Canucks over having Dahlen playing in North America for their coaching staf in the AHL. 

I agree that it's not a better situation than having him in Utica. Not that it's terrible. He can still develop pretty well in the SHL and it's a quality league. But he could probably gain more ground towards becoming an NHL player if he spent this year with the Comets.

[Gaudette Celly]

Perhaps like Toronto with Nylander they can bring him back over later on.  Does not their season end earlier?

[coastal.view]

he's still a kid

let's not rush him

he may mature more sensibly nearer family and in the culture he grew up with

with more maturity he might adjust better to canada and north america

people who live here assume the transition is easy

it really is not

and it is becoming harder at time goes on

i'm sure he, his agent, and all those involved in his development

assisted in making this decision

[Toews]

19 minutes ago, Hutton Wink said:

Perhaps like Toronto with Nylander they can bring him back over later on.  Does not their season end earlier?

Nylander left during the middle of the year mostly because Modo was in disarray at the time. The SHL regular season ends early but there is the playoffs as well if his team makes it. Even if his team makes the playoffs and goes fairly deep it should end before the AHL playoffs begin. 

[Noble 6]

6 hours ago, nergish said:

I wanted Dahlen in Utica for selfish reasons, but he was not going to get the ice time required for him to keep developing at his torrid pace. I still believe he has the potential to be the most hyped young player in all of Sweden this season, and that’s what we want for him right now: Goals, cellies, local fame, blonde women, etc.

 

The only bummer is that he could conceivably lead the SHL in goals and STILL be a question mark for NA hockey, because his size/strength is what’s in question, not his skill.

 

If he plays with Pettersson, look out. That’s not just fun for our fanbase, that’s fun for Swedish hockey on the whole.

 

Could Dahlen actually be one of the best young players in the SHL? He's not even the best European Canuck prospect in Sweden.