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Team's offensive problems need a coaching re-think


*Buzzsaw*

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I've been more than willing to give Travis Green and the coaching staff the benefit of the doubt... they are in the learning process... same as the players.

 

But lately the team has been underperforming badly... there is no reason why a roster with the number of shooters the Canucks have should be so challenged to score... especially on the PP.

 

With Boeser, Pettersson and Horvat, along with backups like Leivo, Goldobin and Granlund... all decent shooters... the PP should be able to deliver around the 20% mark, not 15%.  That 5% deficit has been the difference in win/loss in a LOT of games.

 

What I am seeing on the PP is a distinct lack of movement and crispness of passing.  You can't get the defending team off balance with your players standing in one position and sliding leisurely passes back and forth.   When the PK team knows exactly where everyone on the Canucks PP will be, then their job is a LOT easier.  And here's the thing:  That lack of pass speed and failure to change up positioning can be addressed in drills.  So why isn't this being done?  I don't buy that it is a failure of the players.

 

But the key issue in my opinion is the lack of shots.... here we are with two of the best shooters in the game in Petey and Boes... and rarely do they get an opportunity to shoot the puck.  What's wrong with this picture???

 

On the subject of even strength...

 

The other failure I am seeing over and over again is the lack of a breakout system.  No one on the Canuck forward lines ever seems to be every positioned to take the first pass with jump and speed.  Half the time it ends up being the defense who carries the puck out of the zone... by which time the other team is already lined up and waiting.  I don't see any system... the Canucks breakout always seems to be made up on the spot... instead of emerging from positioning and planning.

 

The second big issue even strength is the failure to gain the zone in possession.  Way too often we see a dump and chase game... which the Pettersson line is definitely not built for.  When Petey is digging behind the net and bumping bodies, his real skills are being wasted.  He needs space in front of the net to use his shooting and passing talents.

 

Just about every other team in the league has developed drills to allow them gain entry in possession... we see it regularly... except from the Canucks... whose opportunities are few and far between.  When was the last time you saw a Canuck cross the blue line and immediately drop pass to a trailing forward thus avoiding the poke check or stand up from the D?  No, usually we see one player trying to stickhandle his way into the zone without any support, with the inevitable result being loss of possession.

 

I accept this team has a poor defense, especially when Edler or Tanev is out... goals will be scored on them... but they should be scoring... they do have a lot of offensive talent.  When they are being shut out the number of times they have been... something is wrong.

 

From my perspective it all comes down to coaching.  Now I accept this team has a cr*p schedule, with not a lot of time to practice, but when there is a will, there is a way... and I don't believe enough is being done to put structure to the team's offense. 

 

I am not in favour of firing Green... he has a lot of positive attributes... the players like and respect him, he is good at developing talent.  But he need to put his nose to the video replays for PP/Breakouts and start developing new systems which will allow this team to live up to its potential.

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3 minutes ago, Setyoureyesontheprize said:

Creativity is key

 

:bigblush:

Creativity works best when it is supported by good structures.

 

Anyone can see Petey, Bo and Boes are creative... but they need a system to facilitate their creativity.

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I know some people, including the OP, have been spoiled in recent times with the likes of Boeser and EP40 seamlessly stepping into the NHL and putting up a huge amount of points upon arrival, but it is very important to remember how young the core is that we are building around. Not only are they young and learning how to play in the toughest hockey league in the world on the fly, but they are being relied upon by their team to carry the bulk of the scoring and often times, their scoring outputs determine their team's success.

 

When you ask this from 19, 20, and 21 year olds, they are naturally going to experience a certain level of fatigue, which is what I suspect is happening to many of our young stars right now. Add injuries throughout the season, roster deconstruction through trades or other various roster moves, and wavering motivation levels do to the volatility and bipolar play of this team, and naturally scoring will be much harder to come by. Not gonna dispute the knocks and criticism of the PP because that has been garbage all year, but most of your criticisms are things I have noticed the team perform before at times earlier in the season. 

 

Part of your criticisms certainly fall under coaching to a certain extent, but:

 

46 minutes ago, *Buzzsaw* said:

 

With Boeser, Pettersson and Horvat, along with backups like Leivo, Goldobin and Granlund... all decent shooters... the PP should be able to deliver around the 20% mark, not 15%.  That 5% deficit has been the difference in win/loss in a LOT of games.

 

 

With a supporting cast like that, I'm not surprised at all that some of our young stars are starting to slow down and the team isn't looking as crisp as it once did in the offensive zone, and that falls on management. After the big 3, the next leading scorer on the Canucks is Antoine Roussel with 29pts...that is what we call a lack of offensive depth.

 

When you make the young stars the focal point of the offense, it also makes them the focal point of the defense, night in, and night out. That is a tough ask for a 6'2, 176lb (I doubt that), 19 year old. 

 

I am glad that you have accepted that this team has poor defense. The next step is accepting that this team is not very good offensively either and over-reliant on it's young stars. Other worldly 3-5 point performances early in the season from EP masked the overall offensive inefficiencies that this team walked into the season with. In reality, the team is 27th in the league in scoring and was 26th a year before that with the Sedin twins. I would say the team is scoring at a clip that is reasonable to expect of them.

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If Green and Benning only have tank in their mind it's easy to understand all the strange decisions/strategies. 

 

Why leave the defence/goalie exposed when we have a lot of injuries and should be more defensive? 

 

Why didn't staff defend DiPietro when he was exposed as he was? 

DiPietro was the the victim of a lousy strategy and stressed team mates. Was it 2 own goals? And 4 goals on turnovers/takeaways? 

DiPietro wasn't bad but fans still talk of him like he was. 

 

The major reason to Dahlens trade is probably that creativity isn't a priority in Utica. 

Inge Hammarström, the scout that got us Petey said to Benning when B asked about Dahlen to take him instantly because then you have the top 2 talents in swedish hockey.  Creativity is the key... 

When Dahlen helped Timrå beat an SHL-team in the play offs he showed that he already was AHL-standard. He should have been tested right away in the Canucks instead of a camp designed for american youth(I assume B)). 

I think that every player of a decent standard should be tested by the Canucks i 5-10 games before Utica becomes an option. 

 

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The better the talent of the players,the better the coaching will become.

Give us another super star player like our one and only in fifty years (P.Bure) and our coaching will improve.

Sometimes I see a lot of chasing the puck around the rink and as far as structure goes it is F#$%^KING NON EXISTENT,and that is definitely on the coach.

Our defense is too scared to lose the puck and they just get rid of it instead of actually making a play to a team-mate with it.

Support the stupid puck would ya!

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4 hours ago, *Buzzsaw* said:

I've been more than willing to give Travis Green and the coaching staff the benefit of the doubt... they are in the learning process... same as the players.

 

But lately the team has been underperforming badly... there is no reason why a roster with the number of shooters the Canucks have should be so challenged to score... especially on the PP.

 

With Boeser, Pettersson and Horvat, along with backups like Leivo, Goldobin and Granlund... all decent shooters... the PP should be able to deliver around the 20% mark, not 15%.  That 5% deficit has been the difference in win/loss in a LOT of games.

 

What I am seeing on the PP is a distinct lack of movement and crispness of passing.  You can't get the defending team off balance with your players standing in one position and sliding leisurely passes back and forth.   When the PK team knows exactly where everyone on the Canucks PP will be, then their job is a LOT easier.  And here's the thing:  That lack of pass speed and failure to change up positioning can be addressed in drills.  So why isn't this being done?  I don't buy that it is a failure of the players.

 

But the key issue in my opinion is the lack of shots.... here we are with two of the best shooters in the game in Petey and Boes... and rarely do they get an opportunity to shoot the puck.  What's wrong with this picture???

 

On the subject of even strength...

 

The other failure I am seeing over and over again is the lack of a breakout system.  No one on the Canuck forward lines ever seems to be every positioned to take the first pass with jump and speed.  Half the time it ends up being the defense who carries the puck out of the zone... by which time the other team is already lined up and waiting.  I don't see any system... the Canucks breakout always seems to be made up on the spot... instead of emerging from positioning and planning.

 

The second big issue even strength is the failure to gain the zone in possession.  Way too often we see a dump and chase game... which the Pettersson line is definitely not built for.  When Petey is digging behind the net and bumping bodies, his real skills are being wasted.  He needs space in front of the net to use his shooting and passing talents.

 

Just about every other team in the league has developed drills to allow them gain entry in possession... we see it regularly... except from the Canucks... whose opportunities are few and far between.  When was the last time you saw a Canuck cross the blue line and immediately drop pass to a trailing forward thus avoiding the poke check or stand up from the D?  No, usually we see one player trying to stickhandle his way into the zone without any support, with the inevitable result being loss of possession.

 

I accept this team has a poor defense, especially when Edler or Tanev is out... goals will be scored on them... but they should be scoring... they do have a lot of offensive talent.  When they are being shut out the number of times they have been... something is wrong.

 

From my perspective it all comes down to coaching.  Now I accept this team has a cr*p schedule, with not a lot of time to practice, but when there is a will, there is a way... and I don't believe enough is being done to put structure to the team's offense. 

 

I am not in favour of firing Green... he has a lot of positive attributes... the players like and respect him, he is good at developing talent.  But he need to put his nose to the video replays for PP/Breakouts and start developing new systems which will allow this team to live up to its potential.

dude i don't want to burst your bubble, but if you look at the research on coaching and in general management, it has no statistically significant impact on the outcome of winning or losing. in other word any coach in the league would not fair any better statistically.   The difference with Van this year and last year is we got some EP but the main reasons are marky being one of the best goalies in the league this past 40 games or so and the fact the west sucks.  The team is getting better but we still are not that good and that is really starting to show as teams really start to bring it.   Our offense has basically 2 and half legit offensive threats (Horvat, EP and Boeser).  I would add Sven but he has missed most of the season.  We got nothing from the back end - but Quinn is coming.  I say half as well because Horvat is being deployed as a shut down guy.   But it is pretty easy for good teams to contain us with the limited offensive weapons we have.   My prediction for the next few games is we might see LE back up with EP.  This team is still a few years away from being a legit playoff team.  However, steps were made this year and if could score a top 5 pick then I would call this season a major success.   I think pearson and leivo are very good adds.  Spooner perhaps.  Don't blame the coach!

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Giving the coaches a total reprieve for the offensive woes of the team is foolish. Considering that we were able to score at a higher clip earlier in the season, while we're now struggling to even net 2 goals a game. Sure, the games are tougher now, and sure, the team is pretty tired, but it's the coaches job to get the team ready to play each and every night, and Green just isn't doing that. Every game these days looks like a lethargic death march and that's on the coaching staff. It's one thing to lose, but it's another thing to give up, and it appears as though this group has given up. The completely inept PP certainly doesn't help matters either. Regardless of how immobile our D might be, if you have a PP with Brock Boeser on one side and Elias Pettersson on the other side and can't score, something's fishy.

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Okay so this is about the PP not the offense.

I think predictability is part of the issue especially on the breakout.  They started the season with the whole pass to the late trailer then they bump it up usually to the left side for entry.  Worked great early in the year and a lot of teams were doing it.  Coaches adjusted and we didn't move to second option on the breakout.  Seems to me you start with a structure and you give a few options from there.  Yet you see the Canucks half way up the ice on a spontaneous breakout and then think, stop turn around and dump to the trailer who attempts to slide it in on the left wing.  Let the spontaneity flow within the basic structure.

I think though the big change should come when they bring in Quinn if they let him have the flexibility to be a floater, he can start finding the seams and shifting the PK around from their positions.  When you add a player as smart and skilled as EP with a guy that could play a fantastic role in stressing and destabilizing the structure of the PK by playing a fairly fluid unconventional role like the floater role that Niedermeyer played in Anaheim I think we should see a big shift in the PP.

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3 minutes ago, DrJockitch said:

Okay so this is about the PP not the offense.

I think predictability is part of the issue especially on the breakout.  They started the season with the whole pass to the late trailer then they bump it up usually to the left side for entry.  Worked great early in the year and a lot of teams were doing it.  Coaches adjusted and we didn't move to second option on the breakout.  Seems to me you start with a structure and you give a few options from there.  Yet you see the Canucks half way up the ice on a spontaneous breakout and then think, stop turn around and dump to the trailer who attempts to slide it in on the left wing.  Let the spontaneity flow within the basic structure.

I think though the big change should come when they bring in Quinn if they let him have the flexibility to be a floater, he can start finding the seams and shifting the PK around from their positions.  When you add a player as smart and skilled as EP with a guy that could play a fantastic role in stressing and destabilizing the structure of the PK by playing a fairly fluid unconventional role like the floater role that Niedermeyer played in Anaheim I think we should see a big shift in the PP.

This is great, but the Canuck’s coaches will not let ?Quinn be a floater, or rover.  I just hope our coaches don’t beat the creativity out of Quinn.  

Our PP, like you say, is too structured.  Our players have had the creativity beaten out of them.  Add to that it would be nice to have a point shot that wasn’t a muffin.  

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10 hours ago, *Buzzsaw* said:

I've been more than willing to give Travis Green and the coaching staff the benefit of the doubt... they are in the learning process... same as the players.

 

But lately the team has been underperforming badly... there is no reason why a roster with the number of shooters the Canucks have should be so challenged to score... especially on the PP.

 

With Boeser, Pettersson and Horvat, along with backups like Leivo, Goldobin and Granlund... all decent shooters... the PP should be able to deliver around the 20% mark, not 15%.  That 5% deficit has been the difference in win/loss in a LOT of games.

 

What I am seeing on the PP is a distinct lack of movement and crispness of passing.  You can't get the defending team off balance with your players standing in one position and sliding leisurely passes back and forth.   When the PK team knows exactly where everyone on the Canucks PP will be, then their job is a LOT easier.  And here's the thing:  That lack of pass speed and failure to change up positioning can be addressed in drills.  So why isn't this being done?  I don't buy that it is a failure of the players.

 

But the key issue in my opinion is the lack of shots.... here we are with two of the best shooters in the game in Petey and Boes... and rarely do they get an opportunity to shoot the puck.  What's wrong with this picture???

 

On the subject of even strength...

 

The other failure I am seeing over and over again is the lack of a breakout system.  No one on the Canuck forward lines ever seems to be every positioned to take the first pass with jump and speed.  Half the time it ends up being the defense who carries the puck out of the zone... by which time the other team is already lined up and waiting.  I don't see any system... the Canucks breakout always seems to be made up on the spot... instead of emerging from positioning and planning.

 

The second big issue even strength is the failure to gain the zone in possession.  Way too often we see a dump and chase game... which the Pettersson line is definitely not built for.  When Petey is digging behind the net and bumping bodies, his real skills are being wasted.  He needs space in front of the net to use his shooting and passing talents.

 

Just about every other team in the league has developed drills to allow them gain entry in possession... we see it regularly... except from the Canucks... whose opportunities are few and far between.  When was the last time you saw a Canuck cross the blue line and immediately drop pass to a trailing forward thus avoiding the poke check or stand up from the D?  No, usually we see one player trying to stickhandle his way into the zone without any support, with the inevitable result being loss of possession.

 

I accept this team has a poor defense, especially when Edler or Tanev is out... goals will be scored on them... but they should be scoring... they do have a lot of offensive talent.  When they are being shut out the number of times they have been... something is wrong.

 

From my perspective it all comes down to coaching.  Now I accept this team has a cr*p schedule, with not a lot of time to practice, but when there is a will, there is a way... and I don't believe enough is being done to put structure to the team's offense. 

 

I am not in favour of firing Green... he has a lot of positive attributes... the players like and respect him, he is good at developing talent.  But he need to put his nose to the video replays for PP/Breakouts and start developing new systems which will allow this team to live up to its potential.

Whats wrong with the Canucks is the Defense cannot stand up at the blue line force turnovers and then get the puck up to the forwards on the move, The successful teams in the league not only can defend their goal but also transition in a hurry. Its the way to win in the NHL. Most teams can defend. Its not overly hard to keep the shots to the outside and not allow the opposition prime shots in front of the net. What is difficult is to generate offense from the D. Turning the puck over either at your blue line or the opponents blue line is how teams score.Look at the two goals scored in the Colorado game where the puck didn't make it out of the zone and with one pass they scored. Mackinnons goal was a rocket after the forward had his pocket picked.

I agree with the need for speed on the attack. other teams recognize the players the Canucks want to handle the puck and distribute it. Petterson is number 1 , they take his space away. Horvat is number two, slow him before he gets going. Its what we do to McDavid that has Ken Hitchcock all agog. On the power play take away Peteys one timer and post someone on Brock and we dont have anyone else capable of shooting the puck. Our D is not a legitimate threat to shoot the puck. Edler always gets it blocked.

Until we have more than two credible threats on the power play we will not be more successful at scoring.

On the power play we have one D man that can get the puck through with regularity and his name is Biega. He is the only one that seems to have it figured out. you dont need the huge slap shot just get it thru the first wave.

Coaching has very little to do with our lack of offense, we have hit out fair share of posts this last 20 games. when they go post and in we win, when they go post and out we get shut out.

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10 hours ago, *Buzzsaw* said:

I've been more than willing to give Travis Green and the coaching staff the benefit of the doubt... they are in the learning process... same as the players.

 

But lately the team has been underperforming badly... there is no reason why a roster with the number of shooters the Canucks have should be so challenged to score... especially on the PP.

 

With Boeser, Pettersson and Horvat, along with backups like Leivo, Goldobin and Granlund... all decent shooters... the PP should be able to deliver around the 20% mark, not 15%.  That 5% deficit has been the difference in win/loss in a LOT of games.

 

What I am seeing on the PP is a distinct lack of movement and crispness of passing.  You can't get the defending team off balance with your players standing in one position and sliding leisurely passes back and forth.   When the PK team knows exactly where everyone on the Canucks PP will be, then their job is a LOT easier.  And here's the thing:  That lack of pass speed and failure to change up positioning can be addressed in drills.  So why isn't this being done?  I don't buy that it is a failure of the players.

 

But the key issue in my opinion is the lack of shots.... here we are with two of the best shooters in the game in Petey and Boes... and rarely do they get an opportunity to shoot the puck.  What's wrong with this picture???

 

On the subject of even strength...

 

The other failure I am seeing over and over again is the lack of a breakout system.  No one on the Canuck forward lines ever seems to be every positioned to take the first pass with jump and speed.  Half the time it ends up being the defense who carries the puck out of the zone... by which time the other team is already lined up and waiting.  I don't see any system... the Canucks breakout always seems to be made up on the spot... instead of emerging from positioning and planning.

 

The second big issue even strength is the failure to gain the zone in possession.  Way too often we see a dump and chase game... which the Pettersson line is definitely not built for.  When Petey is digging behind the net and bumping bodies, his real skills are being wasted.  He needs space in front of the net to use his shooting and passing talents.

 

Just about every other team in the league has developed drills to allow them gain entry in possession... we see it regularly... except from the Canucks... whose opportunities are few and far between.  When was the last time you saw a Canuck cross the blue line and immediately drop pass to a trailing forward thus avoiding the poke check or stand up from the D?  No, usually we see one player trying to stickhandle his way into the zone without any support, with the inevitable result being loss of possession.

 

I accept this team has a poor defense, especially when Edler or Tanev is out... goals will be scored on them... but they should be scoring... they do have a lot of offensive talent.  When they are being shut out the number of times they have been... something is wrong.

 

From my perspective it all comes down to coaching.  Now I accept this team has a cr*p schedule, with not a lot of time to practice, but when there is a will, there is a way... and I don't believe enough is being done to put structure to the team's offense. 

 

I am not in favour of firing Green... he has a lot of positive attributes... the players like and respect him, he is good at developing talent.  But he need to put his nose to the video replays for PP/Breakouts and start developing new systems which will allow this team to live up to its potential.

It's almost as if there's a reason for these losing skids they go on

 

Whatever could it be?  Hmmmmmm?

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2 hours ago, Alflives said:

This is great, but the Canuck’s coaches will not let ?Quinn be a floater, or rover.  I just hope our coaches don’t beat the creativity out of Quinn.  

Our PP, like you say, is too structured.  Our players have had the creativity beaten out of them.  Add to that it would be nice to have a point shot that wasn’t a muffin.  

Oops yeah meant rover.

Will be fun to see them figuring things out.  

Green has always wanted to attack and play a game that suits Hughes.  He has just had a defence that was a bit ill fitted for that.  

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Baertschi first line left wing                         out with concussion

Virtanen  second or third line right wing   out with broken rib

Tanev first line defense man                      out with ?

Sutter third line center.                                out with?

 

Edler first pair d man just back

Demko back up goalie just back

 

 

What is wrong with the offense, can somebody tell me?:ph34r:

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Just now, gurn said:

Baertschi first line left wing                         out with concussion

Virtanen  second or third line right wing   out with broken rib

Tanev first line defense man                      out with ?

Sutter third line center.                                out with?

 

Edler first pair d man just back

Demko back up goalie just back

 

 

What is wrong with the offense, can somebody tell me?:ph34r:

So wvy doesn't Green play with a defensive strategy. It's all in, go go go and don't stop... And then we loose because of turnovers/takeaways when all our players are stuck in offense and can't help out in defense. 

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4 minutes ago, gurn said:

Baertschi first line left wing                         out with concussion

Virtanen  second or third line right wing   out with broken rib

Tanev first line defense man                      out with ?

Sutter third line center.                                out with?

 

Edler first pair d man just back

Demko back up goalie just back

 

 

What is wrong with the offense, can somebody tell me?:ph34r:

You forgot most of the team's names.

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6 minutes ago, Timråfan said:

So wvy doesn't Green play with a defensive strategy. It's all in, go go go and don't stop... And then we loose because of turnovers/takeaways when all our players are stuck in offense and can't help out in defense. 

Please tell me just what kind of strategy Green is asking the players to play.

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