[GDT/PGT] Vancouver Canucks vs Montreal Canadiens | January 23, 2021 | 4 p.m. PT | CBC, SN, CITY, TVAS

[D-Money]

8 hours ago, b3. said:

Regarding the coaching and GM complaints.

 

I would like management to stop hiring these rookies, unless they are proven up until the NHL level. I believe Travis had a good rep. But we haven’t had a seasoned coach since maybe Crow? We developed AV, and Torts had zero chance under Trevor.

 

Regarding GMs, I believe Brian Burke was our last GM that wasn’t wet behind the ears.

 

Vigneault had coached over 3 seasons in Montréal, one of which he was a finalist for the Jack Adams. Torts had tons of experience, and the results were an absolute train wreck - had nothing to do with Linden.

 

[DownUndaCanuck]

It's a real shame because individually I thought everyone had a strong game. On paper we're a solid team, but the way we're being deployed right now, Green's system is setting us up for failure.

 

Top line was buzzing, Miller's best is still yet to come but Petey had his best game in a while. Sure the stumble and breakaway was abyssmal but nice goal and could have had 1 or 2 more. The PP was really clicking nicely generating lots of chances, and Brock was fighting hard on both lines he was on.

 

Pearson I thought fought really well, especially on the PK, and Bo was great all around as well. Hoglander started slow but once he was put back onto the 2nd line he played like a big man - taking players wide then crashing the net. The goal he scored is how we need to play - just quickly throw pucks to the net. He had no right to score, not facing the goal but he knew there was a good screen and Price couldn't see it. Smart player.

 

I thought Sutter was brilliant on the PK and had good moments on 5 on 5 too. Virtanen skated well but did nothing else for me apart from the one flubbed chance. MacEwan played a hell of a game and deserves more time - some nifty in-tight playmaking and threw his body like it was the playoffs. 

 

Our fourth line we're solid too defensively, Beagle and Motte really played Montreal hard, played a good forecheck and defensively got out well.

 

On defence I thought Edler was so solid as usual, we don't appreciate what he does for us still but he only ever gets beaten with top end skill and speed (eg. McDavid) which Montreal don't really have so dealt with them easily. Schmidt for me really hasn't come as advertised, he's missing a lot of pick ups and isn't as crisp as he was in Vegas but obviously needs time to adjust. Myers played well, good to see him throw the body around too, this is the most physical he's ever been in his career. Hughes was decent as usual with some nice keep ins but nothing special, and Benn played very well defensively, wasn't caught out at all. Juolevi played really well too, that post and goal was a very unlucky sequence for a rookie to learn but this guy is going to be solid, we just need to groom him properly and hopefully our gaudy +/- doesn't weigh on him.

 

In net, Holtby made a couple of saves but the first goal and another were freebies we just can't afford. Then we hang him out to dry so can't complain.

 

On the whole, our players played hard tonight, fought well individually but Green is putting them in positions to fail. That Miller cross-blueline pass through two Canadiens is a carbon copy of the Pettersson give away and these are smart players being forced to try to keep the puck in when it's just not going to happen. The way we play is going to gift teams breakaways and the frustrating thing is, we don't need to play that way to have success. Look at Montreal rarely pinching but their D still scoring - that's how we should play. Low risk high reward plays. 3-2 with 10 minutes to play and all we need is a PP and some sustained pressure, not forcing things that lead to a breakaway the other way.

 

These losses are all on Green, the players played their best hockey tonight but the coaching staff set them up to failure. The coaches have to figure out a sweet spot of offence and defence because we can't leave our young D and bad goalies out to dry like this, and don't have to when we have such a good PP.

 

I've always been a fan of Green but if this continues JB has to make a hard decision because it's not 1 or 2 player's fault.

[D-Money]

It was obvious that the team looked poised to take a step back this year. But this is more than that - this is an absolute tire fire so far.

 

There’s not much we can do about it at this point, other than ride it out and hope it improves. The shortened season is already 1/8 finished. Moves are going to be difficult to pull off, because a trade will have to be with a divisional rival, or there will be a 14-day quarantine (after which the season will be another 1/8 over).

 

Silver lining: a Canadian team is assured to make the conference finals this year, and prices will be high at the deadline for players that won’t have to quarantine. We should be able to get decent picks for our expiring UFAs (Pearson, Sutter, and Hamonic...maybe even Edler). Heck, maybe we’re even able to dump an overpaid guy with an extra year (Roussel, Beagle) if a team is desperate. One bad year to load up on assets might help in the long term. And there should be another round of bargains next offseason to fill the holes with some quality depth.

[Joe Blough]

Tough times for the team. It’s hard to learn to play a higher risk, but more dangerous system when you’re a young player.

 

Watching this team this year takes me back to another young core with a new coach in Alain Vigneault. AV was using a very straightforward dump and chase, defensive system when he first came here. He adapted his systems and the teams style of play as the players improved. I remember him saying that coaches adjust the teams sytems and style of play to the personnel they have. He was highly criticized early on in his tenure here too.

 

What I’m seeing is Green and company are beginning to loosen the leash for the players now because they have the talent to play a more puck possession game. Unfortunately for a young team learning to play puck possession, the mistakes have a higher cost.  When they play a dump and chase style, they generally have two D back with the forwards moving through the neutral zone at speed and it stretches the puck and puck support out up ice. The D can be back on the D side of the puck as it’s stretched up ice and dumped into the O-zone. If coverage breaks down or possession changes, you have men back to cover.

 

With the possession game (which is waaaay more fun to watch) you have to have the 5 man group playing as a much tighter unit in transition. They also have to have a much higher degree of situational awareness because you may have a Quinn Hughes pushing the play up ice and a forward has to be aware and adjust to drop behind to cover. It’s also riskier in that players are trying more creative plays with smaller margins for error, like a tight seem pass through the middle in the neutral zone.

 

With the young but talented group we have, if they don’t make the right read to cover each other and possession changes, then the group is caught up ice in a tighter configuration than happens in a dump and chase configuration. I think that’s why we’re seeing a much higher degree of odd man rushes and breakaways.

 

I remember watching this same thing happen in the mid to late 2000’s when the team was maturing after the WCE days. I’m not worried. I know we have the players who have the creativity to learn each others tendencies and be able to read off of each other eventually. Unfortunately there’s no easy way to learn a to play possession with a young team. The knowing is in the doing and no success is ever achieved without going through the crucible of failure.

 

That 3-2 goal ultimately won’t happen when they learn, because they’ll make the read that QH is the last man back carrying the puck out of his zone, and the right side player will drop back to ensure an outlet or coverage for him if things go sideways. That goal happened because you had a team trying to break out as a unit up ice playing puck possession through the neutral zone instead of just chipping it up the boards and dumping it in.

 

Which style of play would you rather watch? I’m excited for watching a high skilled, high tempo puck possession team again. Like we were spoiled in watching through the peak Sedin/Kesler era. And I’m willing to watch them go through their growing pains to get there. For me that includes Green, Baumgartner and Brown. They’re much better coaches than they’re given credit for on this board. They’re also human beings. What would it be like for us if in our jobs we had thousands of people watching what we were helping produce and there was media and a website forum for it? And every time something went wrong we had people raging at how useless we were and we should be fired? How would that make us feel? Asking for a friend.

[canuck2288]

Elliott Friedman is a tool that is nowhere close to being a “hockey guy”. Just a media guy with “sources”

 

who is he to urge calm?

 

he is an eastern based leafs lover who wants us to fail 

 

do want is required JB, get Gallant on board 

[canuck2288]

2-5 and embarrassed on National tv multiple times isn’t going to sell season tickets when fans are allowed back

 

who would pay money to watch Green’s tire fire? 

[UKNuck96]

30 minutes ago, Joe Blough said:

Tough times for the team. It’s hard to learn to play a higher risk, but more dangerous system when you’re a young player.

 

Watching this team this year takes me back to another young core with a new coach in Alain Vigneault. AV was using a very straightforward dump and chase, defensive system when he first came here. He adapted his systems and the teams style of play as the players improved. I remember him saying that coaches adjust the teams sytems and style of play to the personnel they have. He was highly criticized early on in his tenure here too.

 

What I’m seeing is Green and company are beginning to loosen the leash for the players now because they have the talent to play a more puck possession game. Unfortunately for a young team learning to play puck possession, the mistakes have a higher cost.  When they play a dump and chase style, they generally have two D back with the forwards moving through the neutral zone at speed and it stretches the puck and puck support out up ice. The D can be back on the D side of the puck as it’s stretched up ice and dumped into the O-zone. If coverage breaks down or possession changes, you have men back to cover.

 

With the possession game (which is waaaay more fun to watch) you have to have the 5 man group playing as a much tighter unit in transition. They also have to have a much higher degree of situational awareness because you may have a Quinn Hughes pushing the play up ice and a forward has to be aware and adjust to drop behind to cover. It’s also riskier in that players are trying more creative plays with smaller margins for error, like a tight seem pass through the middle in the neutral zone.

 

With the young but talented group we have, if they don’t make the right read to cover each other and possession changes, then the group is caught up ice in a tighter configuration than happens in a dump and chase configuration. I think that’s why we’re seeing a much higher degree of odd man rushes and breakaways.

 

I remember watching this same thing happen in the mid to late 2000’s when the team was maturing after the WCE days. I’m not worried. I know we have the players who have the creativity to learn each others tendencies and be able to read off of each other eventually. Unfortunately there’s no easy way to learn a to play possession with a young team. The knowing is in the doing and no success is ever achieved without going through the crucible of failure.

 

That 3-2 goal ultimately won’t happen when they learn, because they’ll make the read that QH is the last man back carrying the puck out of his zone, and the right side player will drop back to ensure an outlet or coverage for him if things go sideways. That goal happened because you had a team trying to break out as a unit up ice playing puck possession through the neutral zone instead of just chipping it up the boards and dumping it in.

 

Which style of play would you rather watch? I’m excited for watching a high skilled, high tempo puck possession team again. Like we were spoiled in watching through the peak Sedin/Kesler era. And I’m willing to watch them go through their growing pains to get there. For me that includes Green, Baumgartner and Brown. They’re much better coaches than they’re given credit for on this board. They’re also human beings. What would it be like for us if in our jobs we had thousands of people watching what we were helping produce and there was media and a website forum for it? And every time something went wrong we had people raging at how useless we were and we should be fired? How would that make us feel? Asking for a friend.

Some of that I agree with but I think you are seeing what they are trying to do, and attribute it to them doing it, ie breaking out as a team - they were not doing that, we were lucky if a winger circled back for a breakout 9/10 the D had the puck the forwards were towards the offensive side of the neutral zone, a three man forecheck came in and the forwards were not coming back to support, causing the D to either try and thread it through the bodies or circle back and cross ice it to the other d man under pressure.

 

if the forwards made them selves available the outlet pass would be better,  even more so if they actually circled back to create a more structured breakout rather than relying on Hughes or Schmidt to thread a wonderpass through to actually get possession.

 

yes the team is young yes they are playing a high risk game, but to do so you have to bury your chances and work as a team, so far this season and especially so last night we have seen the forwards work and the D work but they do not seem to be working as a 5 man unit. 

I don’t think they are trying to play possession hockey I think they hit the offensive zone and don’t really know what to do with it, if it’s not come from a rush or breakaway. They are often very static and move the puck but the bodies and players often don’t move, it makes taking the passing lanes away easier, forces us back to the outside and then we throw the centre pass along the blue line for a turnover. For me it’s not possession but lack of imagination.

 

they plan seems to be here t a wonder pass through from the d to hit the blue line at speed with the puck and create rush chances on entry. We don’t have a team at the moment that has the vision and experience to put together a play like ‘the shift’

 

[canuck2288]

When you take away Marky and games against weak Conference/Division teams you are left with our lack of structure exposed

 

many are now seeing it but many others are still in denial buying the cr&p Green spews at his pressers 

 

the sooner we admit we need a coaching overhaul the sooner we can start to play to our potential 

 

or we can just blindly cheer on right? 

[Joe Blough]

I agree, but I attribute much of that to young guys thinking the game too much. Paralysis through analysis. I bet they’re stuck between the old system and executing the new one. Hockey is so fast that processing it has to get to an instinctive, intuitive level. To me it looks like they’re thinking the game instead of playing it.

 

You don’t get plays like ‘the shift’ overnight. I remember watching the Sedins in the early 2000s when they were still learning the game. There was a game I was at against the Sakic/Forsberg/Roy Avalanche and Vancouver lost 4-1. Crow was throwing the Sedins over the boards constantly and they were getting run over, knocked down and stripped of the puck constantly. I was so frustrated watching it that I yelled down to Crow from the stands: “Hey Crow! Why don’t you put the Sedins out again?” Yes, I was one of those fans then. The arena was so quiet that he heard me from the upper bowl too.

 

I figured out that Crow has forgotten more about hockey than I’ll ever know. Watching Green and this young group of Canucks reminds me of that very same thing. I’m looking forward to the progression and the outcome from this that I know we’re all going to be seeing in a couple of years.

 

Wasn’t the general tenor of this board a mere few months ago, that we’re early in our timeline for competing and what we’ve seen so far is gravy? There’s still a lot of learning to come for this group before we see them at their best. They’re going to figure this out. I doubt we make the playoffs this season, but I’m okay with that. I know a lot of fans aren’t. That’s their prerogative.

Edited January 24, 2021 by Joe Blough

[canuck2288]

On 1/23/2021 at 1:09 AM, Convincing John said:

I know it’s super cool and fashionable to freak out and say how ugly this is going to be but I’m going to be a troll here and say it’s going to be a good bounce back game by the boys. 

Ummmmm 

 

did you forget who coaches this team ?

[canuck2288]

10 minutes ago, Joe Blough said:

I agree, but I attribute much of that to young guys thinking the game too much. Paralysis through analysis. I bet they’re stuck between the old system and executing the new one. Hockey is so fast that processing it has to get to an instinctive, intuitive level. To me it looks like they’re thinking the game instead of playing it.

 

You don’t get plays like ‘the shift’ overnight. I remember watching the Sedins in the early 2000s when they were still learning the game. There was a game I was at against the Sakic/Forsberg/Roy Avalanche and Vancouver lost 4-1. Crow was throwing the Sedins over the boards constantly and they were getting run over, knocked down and stripped of the puck constantly. I was so frustrated watching it that I yelled down to Crow from the stands: “Hey Crow! Why don’t you put the Sedins out again?” Yes, I was one of those fans then. The arena was so quiet that he heard me from the upper bowl too.

 

I figured out that Crow has forgotten more about hockey than I’ll ever know. Watching Green and this young group of Canucks reminds me of that very same thing. I’m looking forward to the progression and the outcome from this that I know we’re all going to be seeing in a couple of years.

 

Wasn’t the general tenor of this board a mere few months ago, that we’re early in our timeline for competing and what we’ve seen so far is gravy? There’s still a lot of learning to come for this group before we see them at their best. They’re going to figure this out. I doubt we make the playoffs this season, but I’m okay with that. I know a lot of fans aren’t. That’s their prerogative.

Oh you mean young players like:

Sutter

Beagle

Roussel

Edler

Myers

Holtby

Motte

Miller

Schmidt

stop drinking the Green koolaid. Every team has “young players” in the cap world. Most, unfortunately, have real coaches 

[JoGuitar]

12 hours ago, timmylu1 said:

I know leafs fans so have been fans for over 50 years and still watch every game. Be like them or take a hike. 

The good thing is your opinion doesn’t count for anything... I’ll be around 

[EddieVedder]

2 hours ago, D-Money said:

It was obvious that the team looked poised to take a step back this year. But this is more than that - this is an absolute tire fire so far.

 

There’s not much we can do about it at this point, other than ride it out and hope it improves. The shortened season is already 1/8 finished. Moves are going to be difficult to pull off, because a trade will have to be with a divisional rival, or there will be a 14-day quarantine (after which the season will be another 1/8 over).

 

Silver lining: a Canadian team is assured to make the conference finals this year, and prices will be high at the deadline for players that won’t have to quarantine. We should be able to get decent picks for our expiring UFAs (Pearson, Sutter, and Hamonic...maybe even Edler). Heck, maybe we’re even able to dump an overpaid guy with an extra year (Roussel, Beagle) if a team is desperate. One bad year to load up on assets might help in the long term. And there should be another round of bargains next offseason to fill the holes with some quality depth.

Who are you going to replace Edler and Hamonic with?

[Joe Blough]

4 minutes ago, canuck2288 said:

Oh you mean young players like:

Sutter

Beagle

Roussel

Edler

Myers

Holtby

Motte

Miller

Schmidt

stop drinking the Green koolaid. Every team has “young players” in the cap world. Most, unfortunately, have real coaches 

I’m not drinking any koolaid thanks. I’m sorry if I don’t share your opinion. The world isn’t a binary, simple, reductive place. There are countless variables in relationship to each other that create any particular condition. Having veterans on the team doesn’t negate what I said. What I said is simply my opinion based on my experience over decades and my recent observations of this team based on that experience. I find it frustrating to watch them struggle, but I also find it interesting to watch the learning taking place.

 

Just like golf, I enjoy the good, the bad and the ugly. If it made me angry and upset to watch their games to the point I’m vilifying people, I would question myself as to why I’m watching them?

[73 Percent]

Every game we lost this season (theres been alot), has been due to the lack of specialness on special teams. 

[Chris12345]

11 hours ago, Squamfan said:

What u mean?

Who was offered $1m by other teams? Myers? 

Edited January 24, 2021 by Chris12345

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, canuck2288 said:

Elliott Friedman is a tool that is nowhere close to being a “hockey guy”. Just a media guy with “sources”

 

who is he to urge calm?

 

he is an eastern based leafs lover who wants us to fail 

 

do want is required JB, get Gallant on board 

Elliote Friedman cut his teeth reporting on Canucks games...can't forget his cringeworthy interviews early.    Now he's regarded up their with McKenzie...

[Chris12345]

11 hours ago, iceman64 said:

Lots of people here have no idea how to run a hockey team either so I wouldn't get too far into that..

I'd have no clue but I'll complain.

 

In all seriousness other than hockey what does a GM do? Do they make travel arrangements? Do they order food for the team? 

 

On hockey central Doug McLean said he had to deal with hockey parents a lot and their complaints. 1 hour per day I think he said. 

 

I know there is a ton of pr. There is always a powerful season ticket holder that needs a hug or an event to go to.

Edited January 24, 2021 by Chris12345

[Convincing John]

39 minutes ago, canuck2288 said:

Ummmmm 

 

did you forget who coaches this team ?

Who made bigger changes from last season? The coach or the GM? 

[canuck2288]

8 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Elliote Friedman cut his teeth reporting on Canucks games...can't forget his cringeworthy interviews early.    Now he's regarded up their with McKenzie...

Not even close to a legend like Bmac