[Rumour] Bo Horvat Trade/Contract Talks

[.Naslund]

2 minutes ago, rekker said:

So Brock is at 6.65 per season. Bo is a way more valuable and diffcult to replace player. Bo is easily in the top three centers in the NHL in the faceoff dot. How is he not worth at least 7 per? He's easily worth 7. Probably more like 7.5. I guess his number will start at 7, and Bo's worth every penny. 

So you think about Horvat is worth 500k less than JT miller because he’s good at faceoffs? What else does Horvat do to warrant such a high cap hit? Why does Horvat deserve to get paid a little less than Hughes and at a level similar to Pettersson? If you were an outsider looking in, would you do a one for one trade giving up Hughes or Pettersson to land Horvat and his faceoffs? Also Horvat is not statistically a top 3 faceoff man currently. Top 10 for sure though. There’s a lot more to defence than just winning faceoffs too
 

Brock Boeser is also overpaid, but that doesn’t mean we have to start overpaying all of our players now. Brock had a qualifying offer of over 7 million dollars that he could’ve just accepted, which is why I’m assuming his cap hit is higher than it should be. 

[rekker]

2 minutes ago, .Naslund said:

So you think about Horvat is worth 500k less than JT miller because he’s good at faceoffs? What else does Horvat do to warrant such a high cap hit? Why does Horvat deserve to get paid a little less than Hughes and at a level similar to Pettersson? If you were an outsider looking in, would you do a one for one trade giving up Hughes or Pettersson to land Horvat and his faceoffs? Also Horvat is not statistically a top 3 faceoff man currently. Top 10 for sure though. There’s a lot more to defence than just winning faceoffs too
 

Brock Boeser is also overpaid, but that doesn’t mean we have to start overpaying all of our players now. Brock had a qualifying offer of over 7 million dollars that he could’ve just accepted, which is why I’m assuming his cap hit is higher than it should be. 

True on Brock. The QO has complicated that situation. I do think Bo is worth a tad less than JT, because of the difference in offence numbers. So roughly 7 per. EP is worth roughly 7 as is, but if he cranks out a couple stellar years he will be worth more than JT because of his age. Bo at 7- 7.25, JT at 8, EP at 7 - 7.25 sounds about right. If EP nails it the next could years he will command more than JT. Center depth is everything, especially for a club that historically cannot draft and develop D. So build through goaltending and centers. Fill the wings with what you can. D is a work in progress. Getting rid of Bo turns the strength of the club down the middle to a one injury away from no playoffs scenario. Even if there was a deal out there for Bo that would include a top two Dman, I don't think we are better becuse of the lack of center depth. Bo would easily command 7.5 per in free agency. Easily. 

[Elias Pettersson]

17 minutes ago, .Naslund said:

So you think about Horvat is worth 500k less than JT miller because he’s good at faceoffs? What else does Horvat do to warrant such a high cap hit? Why does Horvat deserve to get paid a little less than Hughes and at a level similar to Pettersson? If you were an outsider looking in, would you do a one for one trade giving up Hughes or Pettersson to land Horvat and his faceoffs? Also Horvat is not statistically a top 3 faceoff man currently. Top 10 for sure though. There’s a lot more to defence than just winning faceoffs too
 

Brock Boeser is also overpaid, but that doesn’t mean we have to start overpaying all of our players now. Brock had a qualifying offer of over 7 million dollars that he could’ve just accepted, which is why I’m assuming his cap hit is higher than it should be. 

Horvat is great at faceoffs but is average defensively, which is why he hardly gets any Selke votes.  He's no Ryan Kesler.  If he's at 60-65 points then he's a $7 million player maximum.  Nobody is paying him $8 million.  He will be 28 if he hits UFA.  His body of work is there to see.  

[Westcoastcanucks777]

8 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Horvat is great at faceoffs but is average defensively, which is why he hardly gets any Selke votes.  He's no Ryan Kesler.  If he's at 60-65 points then he's a $7 million player maximum.  Nobody is paying him $8 million.  He will be 28 if he hits UFA.  His body of work is there to see.  

What!!?

[Gurn]

2 hours ago, AnthonyG said:

Seeing Mackinnon take a team friendly deal and then go on to win a cup, i

Imo, Mackinnon's last deal was good value, not a team friendly deal at all.

There has been a lot of talk about Mac's deal being team friendly, but reality is he signed a decent deal for the value he had brought at the time.

He ended up exceeding that value, but that was because of his growth, not the contract being great for the team.

His newest deal isn't team friendly either.

Edited September 23, 2022 by gurn

[J-Dizzle]

16 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Horvat is great at faceoffs but is average defensively, which is why he hardly gets any Selke votes.  He's no Ryan Kesler.  If he's at 60-65 points then he's a $7 million player maximum.  Nobody is paying him $8 million.  He will be 28 if he hits UFA.  His body of work is there to see.  

I think he could get low to mid 7 million as a free agent. Centers who can score 30+ goals don’t grow on trees and certainly don’t come available very often. 
 

Ideally for us he would be somewhere in the 6 range, but who knows…

[Metal Face Doom]

Bo will get between 7 and 8.  

[AnthonyG]

34 minutes ago, gurn said:

Imo, Mackinnon's last deal was good value, not a team friendly deal at all.

There has been a lot of talk about Mac's deal being team friendly, but reality is he signed a decent deal for the value he had brought at the time.

He ended up exceeding that value, but that was because of his growth, not the contract being great for the team.

His newest deal isn't team friendly either.

If Mackinnon wanted to bet on himself, he would have taken a bridge deal to prove himself and ink a monster deal. He took a long term contract right out of his ELC that gave good value to the team, which in a sense a team friendly deal. Lets be honest here, its not that Mackinnon “ended up exceeding” the value. He was a 1st overall pick, we arent talking about a late 1st or 2nd rounder who came out of nowhere. His new deal is by no means team friendly in any way shape or form, its going to destroy that team in a few years and they are going to go through the issues TOR and EDM have, high end talent on a couple lines and zero depth and used parts in the bottom of the roster or in net. But luckily for Mackinnon and Colorado, they already got their cup. He just put money ahead of another cup.

[BPA]

52 minutes ago, J-Dizzle said:

I think he could get low to mid 7 million as a free agent. Centers who can score 30+ goals don’t grow on trees and certainly don’t come available very often. 
 

Ideally for us he would be somewhere in the 6 range, but who knows…

I heard the same on SN650.  Some female analyst mentioned the same thing: C in is prime age, 30+g, PP1, PK1, etc.

 

Think it’ll be $6.75 x 8yrs ($54M).  Full NMC and last 2yrs a limited NTC.

 

 

[IBatch]

3 hours ago, AnthonyG said:

Bo took a pretty friendly deal the first time imho.

Seeing Mackinnon take a team friendly deal and then go on to win a cup, is probably some inspiration for Bo, as it probably was for JT in a way. Sure Mackinnon showed after winning a cup that it was now all about the money, but hey, at least he raised a cup beforehand.

There is enough influence on this roster to leave money on the table with all the other guys who took paycuts and mentorship from the twins and guys who were part of that 2010-11 team that all took pay cuts to build one of the best teams. He is the leader of this team and if everyone else is taking a paycut to stay and to try and win a cup, Bo would look pretty bad if he didnt take a discount. I feel like that is quite a bit of pressure to encourage him to sign for less, which is a very positive thing for this club moving forward, several guys willing to take paycuts in order to win a cup and cement themselves in history. Bo could go down in history for ages and ages as the first ever Vancouver Canuck captain to hoist the Stanley cup. This team can be and will be remembered for generations as the first to do it in Canuck colours

 

 

Umm both Bo and McKinnon took a large chunk of money for what they'd done so far in this league at the time.   One exploded and it became a huge team friendly deal, the other was just fair and that's it.   RFA deals are not UFA deals, teams expect value for taking the risk for not a lot proven yet.   Horvat didn't exactly light it up.    The team doesn't owe him anything.    

[Canucklehead73]

All I will add is.... there's no way Bo doesn't deserve more than  Boeser... not possible.

[Coconuts]

Bo at 7 would still be a fair deal for both sides given who he can use as comparables. And I mean, really, for those who fuss about paying him, who are you going to replace him with? We don't have a single center in the system who can do what he does for this team and good luck grabbing one via UFA or trade. It's not enough to be like "yeah he's good at faceoffs but he's no Kesler defensively" when Kesler was consistently in the Selke mix at his peak. Most players aren't as good as Bo in the dot now, most players weren't Kesler defensively then. Bo takes the lions share of this teams draws and if he'd played as many games as Miller his draw numbers would have been even higher. Faceoffs lead to possession, possession is key for any team that wants to have success, particularly for a team coached by a more offensive minded coach in Boudreau. 

 

Miscast as a center who eats more defensive minutes than he should or not, we simply don't have anyone in the system who's been able to take those minutes away from him and that's a problem. Bo makes life easier for every center on the roster, Miller simply doesn't have the season he had last season if Horvat isn't in the lineup doing his thing because take Bo out of the lineup and suddenly Miller's having to play an even larger two-way role. Give Bo more favourable offensive zone minutes and his numbers likely go up, this might be the first season of his NHL career he'll have anything resembling two consistent top six caliber linemates. 

 

Some folks see what he does for the Canucks as some sort of luxury when that simply isn't the case. We're a better team with him as our 2C and Miller's a better player with Bo eating the minutes he does. He should easily surpass Boeser in terms of pay, center's are more valuable and Bo's contributions to this team are more valuable than what Boeser brings. 

[N4ZZY]

6 hours ago, AnthonyG said:

Does Bo strike you as a money kinda guy? A lot of posters here crap on him for having no personality. With personality comes ego and ego’s get in the way and that usually involves money. Personally I dont see Bo as the money grubbing type. 
 

These are the questions Bo will be asking himself.

Do you want to win? Do you want to risk being moved to meet your demands and possibly never come close to achieving the ultimate goal? You’ve been to the playoffs twice in your career and its been a few years since the last time you made the post season, you know it isnt easy to get there. You see all these guys here leaving money on the table? JT, Demko, Hughes, Petey, Boeser etc…. They want to win, do you? Leave money on the table and go for a cup. Or enjoy a nice big contract, a new home and a team either over the hump or starting over.

 

(this is how I’m lookin at it and pumpin myself up and pretending im JR and PA in negotiations and going to get a deal done)

I mean, nobody really knows right. None of us know him personally, so how could you say for certain? 

 

These players are professionals, and they're essentially business people. I know it's not only about money, but he's going to want to get paid what he feels he's worth. The Canucks supposedly offering him 5M is a slap in his face. 

 

[Gurn]

9 minutes ago, N4ZZY said:

The Canucks supposedly offering him 5M is a slap in his face. 

If true, the team screwed up, big time.

If he were me, he'd leave  and sign elsewhere.

[JM_]

3 minutes ago, gurn said:

If true, the team screwed up, big time.

If he were me, he'd leave  and sign elsewhere.

its why they have agents, so you don't have to lose it working through the numbers 

[AnthonyG]

1 hour ago, IBatch said:

Umm both Bo and McKinnon took a large chunk of money for what they'd done so far in this league at the time.   One exploded and it became a huge team friendly deal, the other was just fair and that's it.   RFA deals are not UFA deals, teams expect value for taking the risk for not a lot proven yet.   Horvat didn't exactly light it up.    The team doesn't owe him anything.    

And you look around the league at what other guys were signing for and what they had accomplished. Not to mention quality of linemates. Which was Horvats best linemate leading up to his contract extension, Baertschi? Kenins? 35 year old Burrows? Hansen?

Some of these guys who all inked deals BEFORE Horvat and set the market, played with highly skilled linemates. 

 

Horvat 5.5mil Sep 8 2017

231GP 49G 69A 117pts 24PPP

 

Mackinnon 6.3mil in 2016

218 GP 59G 94A 153PTS 40PPP

 

Barkov 5.9mil in 2016

191 GP 52G 67A 119pts 29PPP

 

Wennberg 4.9mil Sep 1 2017 (6 days before Bo)

217 GP 25G 94A 119pts 40PPP

 

Trochek 4.75mil in 2016

146 GP 37G 46A 83pts 15PPP

 

Zibenejad 5.35mil July 2017

(6 years in the league)

337 GP 78G 109A 187pts 49PPP

 

Scheifele 6.125mil in 2016

227 GP 58G 87A 145pts 31PPP

 

Granlund 5.75mil August 2017

(5 years in the league)

321 GP 57G 144A 201pts 53PPP

 

Kuznetsov 7.8mil July 2017

You want to talk about taking a big chunk without proving much and being on a stacked team too

261 GP 52G 129A 182pts 49PPP

 

Horvat didnt have the greatest quality linemates and was still able to put up similar numbers on a rebuilding team. His contract was very fair and wasnt an overpayment. Sure he didnt light it up, but none of these guys were lighting it up, but Horvat was playing with much weaker linemates than most of these guys. 
 

I’m saying or insinuating the team owes Horvat anything either. Horvat was the last guy to sign out of all of these players and his stats are just as impressive and he signed in the middle of those numbers. So yea, I would say he did take a bit of a discount.

[AnthonyG]

29 minutes ago, N4ZZY said:

I mean, nobody really knows right. None of us know him personally, so how could you say for certain? 

 

These players are professionals, and they're essentially business people. I know it's not only about money, but he's going to want to get paid what he feels he's worth. The Canucks supposedly offering him 5M is a slap in his face. 

 

That was a false rumour, if we couldnt hear a single accurate rumour about JTs extension, how the hell do you believe that rumour? Management has kept the lid sealed on their negotiations

[AnthonyG]

30 minutes ago, N4ZZY said:

I mean, nobody really knows right. None of us know him personally, so how could you say for certain? 

 

These players are professionals, and they're essentially business people. I know it's not only about money, but he's going to want to get paid what he feels he's worth. The Canucks supposedly offering him 5M is a slap in his face. 

 

You look at character on and off ice and you can get a sense of what the person is like and wether or not they give a crap about getting paid or going for a cup. Does Bo strike you as the kinda guy who could care less about a cup and is fine getting shipped to some middle of the pack or lower team and be satisfied getting paid. Or do you see the kinda guy who went from a slow and weak skater in his rookie year, to a very strong and powerful skater in just one off season who is giving it all he has to reach his goals? I see the hungry player who isnt satisfied with everything he has done and is hungry to push harder and win a cup

[cripplereh]

1 hour ago, Canucklehead73 said:

All I will add is.... there's no way Bo doesn't deserve more than  Boeser... not possible.

Bo is the better player so he deservers the same for team friendly deal or a bit more.

Edited September 23, 2022 by cripplereh

[Viper007]

22 hours ago, Coconuts said:

Iggy's been mentioned because he's a legendary player and he was a fantastic captain. He fits the mold of what a lot of hockey fans would like in a player, and a captain. 

 

I loved Linden as a Canuck and have nothing but respect for what he accomplished here but let's be real, he's a Canuck icon only. Iginla was the superior player and it's not really close. 36th all-time for points at 1300, tied with Joe Sakic at 16-17 for goals all-time at 625. 11 straight 30+ goal seasons preceded by 28 and 29 goal seasons. 15 seasons with 25 goals ore more, 17 seasons with 20 goals or more. Iginla was front and center during his time in Calgary and regularly put that team on his back, I'd argue he's one of the better Canadian captains to have ever captained an NHL team. 

 

I started watching hockey in the early 2000's so I got to see a lotttt of Iginla during his prime. I've heard never heard anything bad about him and he's generally well regarded around the league. Iginla is the one Calgary player I reckon a good chunk of the Canuck fanbase respects, in my eyes he had the perfect blend of skill and intangibles. I always wanted to see him with the Sedin's.

 

And no, I've zero qualms about giving respect where it's due to players who played for other organizations. 

You fail to mention that Linden was PA president.  A true leader during one of the toughest times to lead.  All the players have respect for him (except the douchebag that will not be names "cough Messier cough").  So ya not just a Canuck icon.  Maybe not respected in terms of captain by other teams fans.