[PGT] Pittsburgh Penguins at Vancouver Canucks | Dec. 04, 2021

[JM_]

49 minutes ago, Timråfan said:

As I heard it he wanted more in pay also… If Tanev was in the team and they did something like 8 at the beginning Kraken wouldn’t have taken him. 
Expansion protection can be dealt in at least two ways.

I disagree - cap wasn't an issue for them, they take Marky for sure.

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, Ghostsof1915 said:

Step 1: Fire Benning, and Green/King/Baumer. Because clearly Benning refuses to make changes. (Unless ownership has said no changes this year)

Step 2: Gear is interm GM, provide him a list of core players that he can't trade unless ownership agrees. Shaw as interm Head Coach. Keep Clark, and find new assistants.

Step 3: If the team can't turn around under new coaching. Trade everyone at the deadline.

Step 4: Hire a President. Who in turn hires the GM, who in turn hires the new head coach. 

 

Welcome back to ground zero. 

Your suggestion plan is fine, except where is fan drinking?  

[Bathgate]

5 hours ago, Timråfan said:

I have no problem if Benning tied up 11 millions in Demko and Marky for six years. 
Marky is worth it and he could have been phased out properly.

That goalie tandem would have scared every team.

That wasn't the issue, the Seattle draft was, could only keep one.

[Maginator]

2 hours ago, IBatch said:

He's been paid like a bottom pairing guy you know that right?   He's not a top four guy, Hamonic is better in that role but hasn't been around.   When it comes to blue chip vets you pay a premium.  Poolman isn't the problem, the problem is Hamonic hasn't been around since the pre-season, and neither has Motte and Sutter, and what remains isn't enough.   Same thing goes for Dickinson.   Ideally he's a bottom pairing winger that can fill in the C role with injuries.   Also not enough. Motte Sutter Dickinson would make a very good shut down fourth line. 

Fair enough. I simply don't think Poolman is worthy of 2.5M, especially when there are cheaper options, who in my opinion are better.

 

Hamonic was a huge loss to start the year, but come on injuries are to be expected somewhere down the line. Good teams face adversity and come out on the other side with W's. They don't crumble. Our back end and bottom six just aren't good enough. That's my stance. 

[PetterssonOrPeterson]

2 minutes ago, Timråfan said:

When a GM going hard for the Cup I can forgive such moves.

Is Benning close to bringing home the Cup? 
He managed to make the prospect pool close to wasteland without the Cup in sight. 

 

lol. Did I say Benning did a good job? No. However, Benning did at least help draft a new future core which Gillis continuously failed at.

Literally the only noteworthy guy drafted during Gillis' time still making an impact on this team today is Horvat, and ironically it was the last draft pick he ever made.

The rest of his picks were failures.

He also never even drafted our core during that time (The Sedins, Kesler, Bieksa, Burrows...etc.) and was gifted those players in their prime. Like I already mentioned, Luongo was even a Nonis transaction.

 

So stop trying over-value Gillis and what he actually did when he was the GM. He built a good supporting cast for a core that was already trending up and that's it. Our prospect pool was about as dead and our core was as "stale" (Tort's words) as can be. 

 

Also, you're really forgetting a key difference. Our core was in their mid-thirties and past their prime when Gillis was nearing his end. 

At this moment, our new "core" of players haven't even reached their primes yet. Petey and Hughes are still 23-22 respectively. Hoglander and Podkolzin are 20, Boeser is 24, and Bo is 26.

It's much more of a worse situation when you have players nearing the end of their careers with no futures in sight, than players who might as well have been drafted yesterday in their early 20's. I'm not trying to praise Benning, but that Gillis team was in much worse shape in terms of where the team was at in terms of age and the prospect pool situation.

 

This was further emphasized when we got bounced by LA in 2012 and SJ in 2013 in the first round. There wasn't going to be another cup run for this team and our pool was a wasteland. Intelligent? lol.

[Ghostsof1915]

13 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Your suggestion plan is fine, except where is fan drinking?  

There will ALWAYS be fans drinking. 

Just might be more heavy for a while. 

[Maginator]

3 hours ago, NewbieCanuckFan said:

Damn, wonder how you will react to finding out Poolman is NOT signed here for two more years but three more years.  He got a four year deal from Benning.

Damn. If he's going to have success it'll be with someone solid beside him on the third pairing, or as a 7th dman. However, 2.5 is too much as a 7th.

 

Sigh.

[Ghostsof1915]

1 minute ago, Maginator said:

Damn. If he's going to have success it'll be with someone solid beside him on the third pairing, or as a 7th dman. However, 2.5 is too much as a 7th.

 

Sigh.

Could be worse. Could be $6 million for 6 years. 

Or have Jacob Chychrun for 4 years at $4.6 million by Alf-Logic. 

[Hairy Kneel]

6 minutes ago, PetterssonOrPeterson said:

 

lol. Did I say Benning did a good job? No. However, Benning did at least help draft a new future core which Gillis continuously failed at.

Literally the only noteworthy guy drafted during Gillis' time still making an impact on this team today is Horvat, and ironically it was the last draft pick he ever made.

The rest of his picks were failures.

He also never even drafted our core during that time (The Sedins, Kesler, Bieksa, Burrows...etc.) and was gifted those players in their prime. Like I already mentioned, Luongo was even a Nonis transaction.

 

So stop trying over-value Gillis and what he actually did when he was the GM. He built a good supporting cast for a core that was already trending up and that's it. Our prospect pool was about as dead and our core was as "stale" (Tort's words) as can be. 

 

Also, you're really forgetting a key difference. Our core was in their mid-thirties and past their prime when Gillis was nearing his end. 

At this moment, our new "core" of players haven't even reached their primes yet. Petey and Hughes are still 23-22 respectively. Hoglander and Podkolzin are 20, Boeser is 24, and Bo is 26.

It's much more of a worse situation when you have players nearing the end of their careers with no futures in sight, than players who might as well have been drafted yesterday in their early 20's. I'm not trying to praise Benning, but that Gillis team was in much worse shape in terms of where the team was at in terms of age and the prospect pool situation.

 

This was further emphasized when we got bounced by LA in 2012 and SJ in 2013 in the first round. There wasn't going to be another cup run for this team and our pool was a wasteland. Intelligent? lol.

There was a lot of Province writers that liked Gillis. I wouldn't be surprised if they're using their literary skills on CDC to use in maintaining Gillis as a hockey guru. 

[Maginator]

1 hour ago, DeNiro said:

Need to convince someone to take Myers.

 

If he’s not considered a big capable defenseman why are we paying him $6 million a season…

God I hate that contract.

 

I like his size, and the occasional toughness he brings.. but the on ice errors and lack of hockey iq is appalling for $6M a year. He is not a top 4 defenseman on a good team. 

 

Closing his hand on the puck last night was disgraceful. We all know the rule.

 

Rushing up the ice and making a bone-headed pass, only to turn it over for an odd man rush the other way happens way too often.

 

He is not the 40+ point defenceman he was in his rookie season, and never will be again. The sooner Myers can be dropped for us to find replacement the better.

[Maginator]

1 hour ago, buddhahoodlum said:

Which is on Benning and his constant overpaying for... is it character? Intangibles? Or foundational players? 

Overvalued, overpayed, and overhyped.

 

Time for a change.

[Timråfan]

12 minutes ago, PetterssonOrPeterson said:

 

lol. Did I say Benning did a good job? No. However, Benning did at least help draft a new future core which Gillis continuously failed at.

Literally the only noteworthy guy drafted during Gillis' time still making an impact on this team today is Horvat, and ironically it was the last draft pick he ever made.

The rest of his picks were failures.

He also never even drafted our core during that time (The Sedins, Kesler, Bieksa, Burrows...etc.) and was gifted those players in their prime. Like I already mentioned, Luongo was even a Nonis transaction.

 

So stop trying over-value Gillis and what he actually did when he was the GM. He built a good supporting cast for a core that was already trending up and that's it. Our prospect pool was about as dead and our core was as "stale" (Tort's words) as can be. 

 

Also, you're really forgetting a key difference. Our core was in their mid-thirties and past their prime when Gillis was nearing his end. 

At this moment, our new "core" of players haven't even reached their primes yet. Petey and Hughes are still 23-22 respectively. Hoglander and Podkolzin are 20, Boeser is 24, and Bo is 26.

It's much more of a worse situation when you have players nearing the end of their careers with no futures in sight, than players who might as well have been drafted yesterday in their early 20's. I'm not trying to praise Benning, but that Gillis team was in much worse shape in terms of where the team was at in terms of age and the prospect pool situation.

 

This was further emphasized when we got bounced by LA in 2012 and SJ in 2013 in the first round. There wasn't going to be another cup run for this team and our pool was a wasteland. Intelligent? lol.

To draft a new core you either be a magician or draft low numbers. Benning drafted pretty low and drafted thereafter.

Gillis wasn’t meant to draft a new core.

As the new GM won’t do either. 
They go for the playoffs and look what happens with the excisting core. 

[WHL rocks]

WoW !!!!

[eeeeergh]

4 minutes ago, Maginator said:

God I hate that contract.

 

I like his size, and the occasional toughness he brings.. but the on ice errors and lack of hockey iq is appalling for $6M a year. He is not a top 4 defenseman on a good team. 

 

Closing his hand on the puck last night was disgraceful. We all know the rule.

 

Rushing up the ice and making a bone-headed pass, only to turn it over for an odd man rush the other way happens way too often.

 

He is not the 40+ point defenceman he was in his rookie season, and never will be again. The sooner Myers can be dropped for us to find replacement the better.

The only top 4 defensemen we have:

- Hughes
- OEL

Bottom pairing guys we have:
- Myers
- Poolman
- Hamonic
- Burroughs
- Schenn

[King Heffy]

6 minutes ago, eeeeergh said:

The only top 4 defensemen we have:

- Hughes
- OEL

Bottom pairing guys we have:
- Myers
- Poolman
- Hamonic
- Burroughs
- Schenn

Hard for anyone to look good when Nolan Baumgartner is there sabotaging the defence.

[PetterssonOrPeterson]

1 minute ago, Timråfan said:

To draft a new core you either be a magician or draft low numbers. Benning drafted pretty low and drafted thereafter.

Gillis wasn’t meant to draft a new core.

As the new GM won’t do either. 
They go for the playoffs and look what happens with the excisting core. 

What do you mean Gillis wasn't meant to draft a new core as if its not his duty?

 

You need to know when the time is up for the core as a GM and make trades to invest in the future.

That's literally what makes a good GM is knowing when to propose a larger change with the team because the formula isn't working anymore. 

The two consecutive first round exits should've been an eye-opener.

 

Kesler was literally begging to leave and probably could've fetched more in terms of a higher pick/propects had he been traded even a year earlier when Gillis was in charge.

I'm not saying he should sell off then entire core but he could've made some smart moves and taken advantage of it. He made the Schneider/Horvat trade but he realized he should be making those types of bold moves too late in his tenure.

He could've made the necessary transactions when players were in high demand to fetch more picks in higher positions but he stuck to the same old stale formula. That's entirely his fault.

[Timråfan]

6 minutes ago, PetterssonOrPeterson said:

What do you mean Gillis wasn't meant to draft a new core as if its not his duty?

 

You need to know when the time is up for the core as a GM and make trades to invest in the future.

That's literally what makes a good GM is knowing when to propose a larger change with the team because the formula isn't working anymore. 

The two consecutive first round exits should've been an eye-opener.

 

Kesler was literally begging to leave and probably could've fetched more in terms of a higher pick/propects had he been traded even a year earlier when Gillis was in charge.

I'm not saying he should sell off then entire core but he could've made some smart moves and taken advantage of it. He made the Schneider/Horvat trade but he realized he should be making those types of bold moves too late in his tenure.

He could've made the necessary transactions when players were in high demand to fetch more picks in higher positions but he stuck to the same old stale formula. That's entirely his fault.

Think of it like drifferent stages.

An aggressive and one passive.

Very few can adapt and do both equally as good. 

[ABNucksfan]

2 hours ago, -DLC- said:

TBL - They had a #1 & 2 .... 12 & 13 years ago.   In the past 10 years they've had one #3 and the rest are all out of the top 10

 

St. Louis - Highest pick in the past 10 years = #17 (this year)

 

Washington -  Highest pick in past 10 years = #11

 

Penguins - Highest pick in past 10 years was...Derrick Pouliot at #8!  (Sure you have Crosby and Malkin but that was 16 & 17 years ago...I don't know that his fanbase has given OUR #1 picks a fair shake yet!)

 

Chicago - Kane & Toews drafted 14 & 15 years ago / they have one top 3 pick in the last 10 years

 

LA - Their top picks were just acquired the past 3 years (highest being #3)...you have to go back 12+ years for their difference makers

 

Boston - Dougie Hamilton at #9 was the top pick in the past 10 years

 

So the point here being that top 3 picks don't provide immediate results...it can take years for them to develop and find the right chemistry/mix in a roster.  Some here just won't be able to withstand that I'm sure.

 

So we tank and collect picks and then what?....sit and wait for them to make a difference in a decade.  Our instant gratification fans don't have the stamina for that.  Our fanbase screams for change (which is fine, I'm ok with it and it's time to try something new that doesn't involve swapping bottom 6 in/out), but it could be years of suffering before we see the results that come with that.  I'm not sure this "I want it all and I want it now" fanbase we have here can exercise the patience for that.  I mean, many have called OUR top picks a bust already and it's been what....4 years since they were drafted? 

 

Which is why I advocate for a coaching change as a first step in turning things around, because we haven't given this roster enough of a chance.  Our bottom 6 has not been good enough for some time, and that's on Benning (to some degree).  But I also understand that you take a gamble at times on players and it's hit and miss.  Sad but true.  This isn't EA NHL where it's just say it and it happens.  But there's no denying he's put us in some tough positions and forced our hand.

 

Some of our players who ARE top picks need the fanbase to support them and booing impacts them more than anyone else.  Losing's tough enough on players, to have your fanbase kick you when you're down (which is what booing does), just seems counterproductive to me.  

 

Let's face it, Aquilini is stubborn and quite set in his ways....boo'ing fans likely isn't going to be the breaking point here  So that crap just lands on the players' shoulders.

 

Enough fans will still show up and support the team...the reason I do so is because I've learned to accept the things I can't control. and I love hockey.  Period. I feel that some of our fanbase (not all, we have some much smarter hockey minds than me) just love to be disruptive.  The late night Granville street drunken crowd mentality in this town of entitlement and instant gratification is definitely a factor.  A bunch of spoiled rich kids who equate money to success (rather than hard work).  The team's trying....when you're frustrated and it isn't working it's easy to get deflated at times (and it shows).

 

Just because some of us still support the boys doesn't mean we're idiots or that it's all roses and sunshine for us either.  But we're not turning on our team because we know it's likely not going to help in the here and now to throw them under the bus (and their jerseys on the ice).  And those who cry for tanking like it's a cure all don't understand how long those picks can take to produce results in the form of a SC.  Catch phrases snowball here and, for some anyways, it's more about being the loudest voice in the room.  The attention.  This idea that you "just draft all the players"  isn't a guarantee for instant success...far from it.  You have to build around them and that's where it gets tougher.

 

 

So basically you neglected to post when the teams won the cups and with how many top picks they had… And how miserable of teams they were for years before they won. In fact teams that won multiple cups (other than Detroit and their drafting wizardry) won those cups with top 3 picks in the lineup in those players primes.

 

In fact it was so successful that the NHL had to put in the “Edmonton” draft lottery rules due to Toronto and Edmonton intentionally tanking for top players.

 

Now look at those two teams. They are tearing it up and one or both may win a cup 

[longsuffering]

1 hour ago, Ghostsof1915 said:

Step 1: Fire Benning, and Green/King/Baumer. Because clearly Benning refuses to make changes. (Unless ownership has said no changes this year)

Step 2: Gear is interm GM, provide him a list of core players that he can't trade unless ownership agrees. Shaw as interm Head Coach. Keep Clark, and find new assistants.

Step 3: If the team can't turn around under new coaching. Trade everyone at the deadline.

Step 4: Hire a President. Who in turn hires the GM, who in turn hires the new head coach. 

 

Welcome back to ground zero. 

Not Shaw... he is part of the problem... no sign that he brought any added value to the coaching this year.

[King Heffy]

12 minutes ago, longsuffering said:

Not Shaw... he is part of the problem... no sign that he brought any added value to the coaching this year.

Hughes has played better defensively.  He sure as hell didn't learn that from Baumgartner or Green.