[PGT] Pittsburgh Penguins at Vancouver Canucks | Dec. 04, 2021

[Timråfan]

5 minutes ago, PetterssonOrPeterson said:

Better yet, think outside your bubble. 

It is not difficult to realize you need to adapt and make necessary changes when it is needed. That is the same in every/any facet of a job or even life in general.

 

You know you're actually improving my point right?

You're pretty much saying Gillis is a one-trick pony not meant for drafting. Drafting is literally part of every GM's job. Building a future for a team is literally part of a GM's job.

 

So yeah he's such an intelligent guy right? Stop contradicting yourself.

 

 

When did I contradict? 
We have a young core that need the puzzle to be right.

Benning hasn’t done that. 
So? If both Benning and Gillis is one trick ponys it’s time for Gillis now. 
 

Drafting is the work for a whole scouting team. 
The GM just say the final word. 

Benning managed to be god at following a great scouting team led by Brackett and others. 
 

[Sedinyoureyesontheprize]

We need a change.
 

 

Green is a loser coach. only thing he’s good at is avoiding answering legitimate questions he’s been asked giving sad  responses with plenty of excuses mixed in. No accountability whatsoever. 
 

Since the owner doesn’t want to pay more to make changes, at this moment  having player/coaches is better than this pathetic display of coaching.
 

JT miller handles offense

Oel defence

 

Hughes/petey PP

Motte/Oel Pk

 

Try something different ffs

 

 

[IBatch]

4 minutes ago, PetterssonOrPeterson said:

Don't necessarily need to trade the Sedins specifically.

You could make changes earlier when it is needed though.

We had good pieces like Bieksa, Burr, Kesler...etc. who Benning (not Gillis) ended up trading and way too late. 

 

Also, I'm not saying to trade all of them but as a GM you should be quicker to realize and adapt.

Torts even fired shots at the management saying things are and have been, too stale with this core. When Torts manages to prove a point against the guy who hired him, you know you need to wake up.

You can't trade players unless they ask to be waived.   Those guys were almost done by the time they did waive.   What is interesting, Mike Gillis was working on a trade with Tampa Bay's second (Hedman), for Burrows, Bieksa and our first that never happened, which was just before the Sedins got re-signed.   Imagine if that deal went through.   No run to the final.   But we'd have hopefully picked Hedman and who knows where thing would have gone if part of that deal was also to let the Sedins go to Toronto, who had already said they'd sign them.   We'd have gone into a rebuild mode before we even peaked.    Mike Gillis was great at signing that core, putting icing on the cake, but his staff couldn't draft there way out of a paper bag.   9 years between the Nonis first draft with Edler and Horvat.   That's a long time with only Co-ho and Hutton to speak of. 

[bishopshodan]

16 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Did he teach at Queens?  Or get his degree....Think the latter. 

both

 

from the article I posted...

This won’t be Gillis’ first go-round at teaching, but it will be the first time he’s done so as such a public figure. According to a 2008 story from Canada.com, Gillis had previously taught sports law at Queen’s University, the school from which he received his law degree.

Edited December 5, 2021 by bishopshodan

[IBatch]

5 minutes ago, Timråfan said:

When did I contradict? 
We have a young core that need the puzzle to be right.

Benning hasn’t done that. 
So? If both Benning and Gillis is one trick ponys it’s time for Gillis now. 
 

Drafting is the work for a whole scouting team. 
The GM just say the final word. 

Benning managed to be god at following a great scouting team led by Brackett and others. 
 

Sure.   Also managed to draft some good players during the re-tool phase as well which didn't end until 2017.    Benning isn't a great trader.   Best trade was the one he made last off season, but it's not enough.    He's a little gun shy on the tweeners now.    Garland was a modest risk that's worked out great so far.   OEL was obviously to help QHs and replace Edler.     Average just doesn't cut it with this fanbase, and that's ok.    Time to make a change from the top on down ... 

[IBatch]

2 minutes ago, bishopshodan said:

both

 

from the article I posted...

This won’t be Gillis’ first go-round at teaching, but it will be the first time he’s done so as such a public figure. According to a 2008 story from Canada.com, Gillis had previously taught sports law at Queen’s University, the school from which he received his law degree.

That's cool.   Thanks for clarifying. 

[JM_]

20 minutes ago, PhillipBlunt said:

Completely disagree. Hughes has been a lot better. When the forwards aren’t completely blowing it, the defense shows improvement in structure, however the personnel aren’t anywhere near being good enough to compete. Hughes, OEL, and Schenn serve exactly the purpose they’re intended to. 
 

With Green still at the helm of things and BumGardener still (inexplicably) in charge of the defense, seeing Shaw’s full influence isn’t easy. 

I'm having a hard time coming to terms with "historically worst" PK and Green still being employed. I mean ffs, what more reason does a GM need to make a change? 

 

Jimbo is awol or neutered. 

[-DLC-]

24 minutes ago, JM_ said:

I miss the Sedins possession genius. Even when it was just eating minutes it was a joy to watch. But even with that gift we had people bitching 

 

My worry now is demoralizing the guys to the point where trade requests are made, or worse, they stop trying. Despite some noise to the contrary on here, the guys are still trying, at least until the inevitable point in the game comes where Baumer's static box collapses. 

Exactly my thinking.  

[JM_]

2 minutes ago, -DLC- said:

Exactly my thinking.  

I actually want to smack that guy that threw the jersey on the ice. We've never had that before and its a shame to do it to this group of guys. There's so many good character people in the lineup, they don't deserve that. 

 

This can't go on for much longer, can it?

[PetterssonOrPeterson]

Just now, Timråfan said:

When did I contradict? 
We have a young core that need the puzzle to be right.

Benning hasn’t done that. 
So? If both Benning and Gillis is one trick ponys it’s time for Gillis now. 
 

Drafting is the work for a whole scouting team. 
The GM just say the final word. 

Benning managed to be god at following a great scouting team led by Brackett and others. 
 

You literally called Gillis intelligent and yet you said he's not capable of drafting a core. That's how you contradicted yourself.

I don't know how you don't understand that. lol. 

 

You know Brackett was hired in 2008 right? That was exactly when Gillis was hired as the GM. So where's the excuse there?

Brackett was promoted by Benning in 2015 because he realized just how good Brackett was, so if anything Benning was "smarter" in that instance because he realized Brackett's potential as a scouting director.

 

and what are you even saying?

it's like you're proposing that we recycle and re-use them like plastic. Are you serious?

 

im done with you. You make no sense whatsoever.

[eeeeergh]

31 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Myers and Hominic are middle pairing.  OEL/Myers 5 x 5 is just fine.   Poolman is a bottom pairing guy, and the rest depth guys.    We do lack legit top four, or more middle pairing guys.  

Yeah they might actually be, I think they are just underperforming by quite a bit. 

New coach soon plz

[PhillipBlunt]

8 minutes ago, JM_ said:

I'm having a hard time coming to terms with "historically worst" PK and Green still being employed. I mean ffs, what more reason does a GM need to make a change? 

 

Jimbo is awol or neutered. 

He’s as good as gone as well. The way this team is playing is equally on both management and coaching. 

[PetterssonOrPeterson]

15 minutes ago, IBatch said:

You can't trade players unless they ask to be waived.   Those guys were almost done by the time they did waive.   What is interesting, Mike Gillis was working on a trade with Tampa Bay's second (Hedman), for Burrows, Bieksa and our first that never happened, which was just before the Sedins got re-signed.   Imagine if that deal went through.   No run to the final.   But we'd have hopefully picked Hedman and who knows where thing would have gone if part of that deal was also to let the Sedins go to Toronto, who had already said they'd sign them.   We'd have gone into a rebuild mode before we even peaked.    Mike Gillis was great at signing that core, putting icing on the cake, but his staff couldn't draft there way out of a paper bag.   9 years between the Nonis first draft with Edler and Horvat.   That's a long time with only Co-ho and Hutton to speak of. 

LOL I forgot about Gillis' endless NTC's like they were shopping giveaways

 

Thanks for reminding me. He pretty much kept screwing himself over when push came to shove.

Edited December 5, 2021 by PetterssonOrPeterson

[Curmudgeon]

1 hour ago, PetterssonOrPeterson said:

You need to know when the time is up for the core as a GM and make trades to invest in the future.

That's literally what makes a good GM is knowing when to propose a larger change with the team because the formula isn't working anymore. 

The two consecutive first round exits should've been an eye-opener.

All available evidence points to the fact that Gillis advocated a rebuild but Aquilini said no. And you are correct; the two first round exits were an eye-opener.

 

1 hour ago, PetterssonOrPeterson said:

Kesler was literally begging to leave and probably could've fetched more in terms of a higher pick/propects had he been traded even a year earlier when Gillis was in charge.

Gillis had a deal in place with Pittsburgh that would have seen Sutter, a defensive prospect and a couple of draft picks come to Vancouver for Kesler. Aquilini said no.

 

1 hour ago, PetterssonOrPeterson said:

He could've made the necessary transactions when players were in high demand to fetch more picks in higher positions but he stuck to the same old stale formula. That's entirely his fault.

The flaw in this argument is that players are in high demand when the team is winning and the players are playing well. I can't think of any really good team that sells off its best players just because they could fetch draft picks. Isn't the whole point of playing well to help your team win? Can you see Julien Brisebois saying "You know, we've won two Stanley Cups in a row, so let's trade Stamkos, Hedman or Vasilevskii while they still have value?" I don't think so.

 

 

[longsuffering]

4 hours ago, -DLC- said:

TBL - They had a #1 & 2 .... 12 & 13 years ago.   In the past 10 years they've had one #3 and the rest are all out of the top 10

 

St. Louis - Highest pick in the past 10 years = #17 (this year)

 

Washington -  Highest pick in past 10 years = #11

 

Penguins - Highest pick in past 10 years was...Derrick Pouliot at #8!  (Sure you have Crosby and Malkin but that was 16 & 17 years ago...I don't know that his fanbase has given OUR #1 picks a fair shake yet!)

 

Chicago - Kane & Toews drafted 14 & 15 years ago / they have one top 3 pick in the last 10 years

 

LA - Their top picks were just acquired the past 3 years (highest being #3)...you have to go back 12+ years for their difference makers

 

Boston - Dougie Hamilton at #9 was the top pick in the past 10 years

 

So the point here being that top 3 picks don't provide immediate results...it can take years for them to develop and find the right chemistry/mix in a roster.  Some here just won't be able to withstand that I'm sure.

 

So we tank and collect picks and then what?....sit and wait for them to make a difference in a decade.  Our instant gratification fans don't have the stamina for that.  Our fanbase screams for change (which is fine, I'm ok with it and it's time to try something new that doesn't involve swapping bottom 6 in/out), but it could be years of suffering before we see the results that come with that.  I'm not sure this "I want it all and I want it now" fanbase we have here can exercise the patience for that.  I mean, many have called OUR top picks a bust already and it's been what....4 years since they were drafted? 

 

Which is why I advocate for a coaching change as a first step in turning things around, because we haven't given this roster enough of a chance.  Our bottom 6 has not been good enough for some time, and that's on Benning (to some degree).  But I also understand that you take a gamble at times on players and it's hit and miss.  Sad but true.  This isn't EA NHL where it's just say it and it happens.  But there's no denying he's put us in some tough positions and forced our hand.

 

Some of our players who ARE top picks need the fanbase to support them and booing impacts them more than anyone else.  Losing's tough enough on players, to have your fanbase kick you when you're down (which is what booing does), just seems counterproductive to me.  

 

Let's face it, Aquilini is stubborn and quite set in his ways....boo'ing fans likely isn't going to be the breaking point here  So that crap just lands on the players' shoulders.

 

Enough fans will still show up and support the team...the reason I do so is because I've learned to accept the things I can't control. and I love hockey.  Period. I feel that some of our fanbase (not all, we have some much smarter hockey minds than me) just love to be disruptive.  The late night Granville street drunken crowd mentality in this town of entitlement and instant gratification is definitely a factor.  A bunch of spoiled rich kids who equate money to success (rather than hard work).  The team's trying....when you're frustrated and it isn't working it's easy to get deflated at times (and it shows).

 

Just because some of us still support the boys doesn't mean we're idiots or that it's all roses and sunshine for us either.  But we're not turning on our team because we know it's likely not going to help in the here and now to throw them under the bus (and their jerseys on the ice).  And those who cry for tanking like it's a cure all don't understand how long those picks can take to produce results in the form of a SC.  Catch phrases snowball here and, for some anyways, it's more about being the loudest voice in the room.  The attention.  This idea that you "just draft all the players"  isn't a guarantee for instant success...far from it.  You have to build around them and that's where it gets tougher.

 

 

As a very long and longsuffing fan (still) I agree with almost all of this Deb.... But... at some point the players have to be accountable too. For example from last night's game -

 I watched  #40 carefully and if his name wasn't Pettersson and he was earning such a large salary would you even play him at all? Saw one good shot and one good defensive play but other than that he seemed to be drifting around like he was lost out there. Boeser wasn't much better... one shot, no hits... and Myers was a nightmare all on his own. What can you say about Dickinson and Poolman...yikes! At some point it comes down to the players regardless of the coaching or management.

 

[King Heffy]

4 minutes ago, JM_ said:

I actually want to smack that guy that threw the jersey on the ice. We've never had that before and its a shame to do it to this group of guys. There's so many good character people in the lineup, they don't deserve that. 

 

This can't go on for much longer, can it?

It's also a shame to subject this group of guys to Green, Baumer, and King, three incompetent clowns who are doing their best to destroy any confidence the players have left.  The damage caused by a guy like Green throwing the team under the bus is far worse than what this jersey toss will do; the sooner the players have a head coach worthy of respect instead of a locker room cancer, the better.  The jersey toss is sadly necessary in order to lessen the damage Green is able to cause, as ownership seems to think his continued employment is acceptable. 

 

Tossing the jersey sucks, but it doesn't disgrace the franchise nearly as badly as Green and the rest of his clown college crew.

[Alflives]

Just now, longsuffering said:

As a very long and longsuffing fan (still) I agree with almost all of this Deb.... But... at some point the players have to be accountable too. For example from last night's game -

 I watched  #40 carefully and if his name wasn't Pettersson and he was earning such a large salary would you even play him at all? Saw one good shot and one good defensive play but other than that he seemed to be drifting around like he was lost out there. Boeser wasn't much better... one shot, no hits... and Myers was a nightmare all on his own. What can you say about Dickinson and Poolman...yikes! At some point it comes down to the players regardless of the coaching or management.

 

Does Petey look a bit heavier than before?  

[Fan since 82]

16 hours ago, Coconuts said:

I get it, but the paying fanbase filling those seats isn't big on the product that's been on the ice this season either and it's their right to call for change. 

Probably more effective to stop buying tickets and merchandise. 

[Alflives]

Just now, King Heffy said:

It's also a shame to subject this group of guys to Green, Baumer, and King, three incompetent clowns who are doing their best to destroy any confidence the players have left.  The damage caused by a guy like Green throwing the team under the bus is far worse than what this jersey toss will do; the sooner the players have a head coach worthy of respect instead of a locker room cancer, the better.  The jersey toss is sadly necessary in order to lessen the damage Green is able to cause, as ownership seems to think his continued employment is acceptable. 

 

Tossing the jersey sucks, but it doesn't disgrace the franchise nearly as badly as Green and the rest of his clown college crew.

Only a drunk idiot throws his team sweater on the ice.  It was a loser move by a loser person. 

[longsuffering]

3 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Does Petey look a bit heavier than before?  

Slower for sure....skates straight into traps and loses the puck .... other times gets caught standing still and gets knocked off the puck... not the same player from two seasons ago for sure.

Edited December 5, 2021 by longsuffering