Bo Horvat is the Canucks best center.

[wai_lai416]

2 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Imagine comparing Bo Horvat to future hall of famer Patrice Bergeron...   

 

That alone discredits your entire post...

lol no one is comparing bo bergeron.. just using it as an example because clearly you value production over defensive ability when determining if a player is better or not and where they play in the team/role to determine who's better.. you using a 1c 2c 3c 4c designation as who's a better player discredit your entire post.

 

is bo better than miller is right now? no

is bo better than miller is at the same age? yes up until the age of 27 when Miller got the opportunity to play on the top line

is bo the better scorer than miller? yes literally every season except 1 in the league

is bo better defensively than miller? yes it's not even close

if bo was given the same opportunity as Miller at 27 to play on the top line in all offensive situation could he get better? don't see why not since most 2/3 of his goals and most of his assist came 5v5 in a defensive role.

will bo be given that opportunity? no because there's no one on this team will put up 30+ goals as a defensive center.. maybe except EP but he's far superior in offense

[VanCan2023]

28 minutes ago, MrCanuck94 said:

Horvat is a better goal scorer but O'Reilly is a better playmaker and drastically better defensive player.

O'Reilly was the biggest bitch in the league prior to St.Louis. Granted playing for Buffalo would be painful, he actually went public and said he has zero passion for hockey anymore. Putting on skates is the worst part of the day. Losing so much has deflated him and done. Gets traded and wins a cup, mvp playoffs and he is cured. Keep that pre madonna and his oh it's me attitude. Bo all day long over that better playmaker, and drastically better defensive player.

[MrCanuck94]

10 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said:

lol no one is comparing bo bergeron.. just using it as an example because clearly you value production over defensive ability when determining if a player is better or not and where they play in the team/role to determine who's better.. you using a 1c 2c 3c 4c designation as who's a better player discredit your entire post.

 

is bo better than miller is right now? no

is bo better than miller is at the same age? yes up until the age of 27 when Miller got the opportunity to play on the top line

is bo the better scorer than miller? yes literally every season except 1 in the league

is bo better defensively than miller? yes it's not even close

if bo was given the same opportunity as Miller at 27 to play on the top line in all offensive situation could he get better? don't see why not since most 2/3 of his goals and most of his assist came 5v5 in a defensive role.

will bo be given that opportunity? no because there's no one on this team will put up 30+ goals as a defensive center.. maybe except EP but he's far superior in offense

Miller 27 season: GP 69 G 27 A 45 P 72

Horvat 27 season: GP 70 G 31 A 21 P 52

 

The prior 4 seasons Miller scored at a 52 point pace and Horvat a 59 point pace.

 

Gauging the production is a fair argument, but I'd argue Horvat has maxed out his skillset ceiling while JT took longer to mature and realize his. He definitely has better hockey IQ and playmaking abilities than Bo. There's a reason Petey and Miller were playing more than Bo when all three were C's, and it's not because Bo is more defensive, they're just better.

 

Also, like mentioned above, Bo has not been a defensive center in his career so far. His defensive analytics went from poor to average over time. It's great that he's improving, but he hasn't been a 2 way center in the NHL. I'm hoping he can keep improving his defensive game and become one however. 

[Elias Pettersson]

14 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said:

lol no one is comparing bo bergeron.. just using it as an example because clearly you value production over defensive ability when determining if a player is better or not and where they play in the team/role to determine who's better.. you using a 1c 2c 3c 4c designation as who's a better player discredit your entire post.

 

is bo better than miller is right now? no

is bo better than miller is at the same age? yes up until the age of 27 when Miller got the opportunity to play on the top line

is bo the better scorer than miller? yes literally every season except 1 in the league

is bo better defensively than miller? yes it's not even close

if bo was given the same opportunity as Miller at 27 to play on the top line in all offensive situation could he get better? don't see why not since most 2/3 of his goals and most of his assist came 5v5 in a defensive role.

will bo be given that opportunity? no because there's no one on this team will put up 30+ goals as a defensive center.. maybe except EP but he's far superior in offense

If Horvat is better than Miller defensively, and it's not even close, then please explain the following:

 

1.  Why is Miller used on the penalty kill twice as often as Horvat?  Isn't the penalty kill role used for players who have superior defensive ability?

2.  Why did Miller finish 23rd in Selke voting in 2021-2022 while Horvat finished 34th if Horvat is better defensively?  Isn't the Selke trophy awarded to the player who demonstrates the best skill defensively?  Also, Miller finished 19th in Selke voting in 2019-2020 while Horvat didn't finish in the rankings at all.

 

The Frank J. Selke Trophy, or simply the Selke Trophy, is awarded annually to the National Hockey League forward who demonstrates the most skill in the defensive component of the game. 

 

Bo Horvat Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

 

2019-20	24	VAN	NHL	69	22	31	53	-15	21	10	12	0	2	27	4	0	178	12.4	274	1362	19:44	850	633	57.3	66	55	28	27
2020-21	25	VAN	NHL	56	19	20	39	-6	23	11	7	1	3	16	4	0	131	14.5	226	1114	19:53	648	577	52.9	38	64	25	22
2021-22	26	VAN	NHL	70	31	21	52	3	40	17	13	1	4	15	6	0	194	16.0	303	1366	19:31	841	634	57.0	45	96	32	25	Selke-34

 

J.T. Miller Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

 

2019-20	26	VAN	NHL	69	27	45	72	11	47	18	9	0	3	27	16	2	165	16.4	290	1387	20:06	425	293	59.2	38	123	52	36	AS-7,Hart-17,Selke-19
2020-21	27	VAN	NHL	53	15	31	46	-7	43	11	3	1	4	16	15	0	106	14.2	198	1111	20:58	279	247	53.0	24	90	29	47
2021-22	28	VAN	NHL	80	32	67	99	15	47	24	8	0	6	35	30	2	206	15.5	350	1686	21:05	667	566	54.1	56	172	56	62	AS-7,Hart-14,Selke-23

[shiznak]

7 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

If Horvat is better than Miller defensively, and it's not even close, then please explain the following:

 

1.  Why is Miller used on the penalty kill twice as often as Horvat?  Isn't the penalty kill role used for players who have superior defensive ability?

2.  Why did Miller finish 23rd in Selke voting in 2021-2022 while Horvat finished 34th if Horvat is better defensively?  Isn't the Selke trophy awarded to the player who demonstrates the best skill defensively?  Also, Miller finished 19th in Selke voting in 2019-2020 while Horvat didn't finish in the rankings at all.

 

The Frank J. Selke Trophy, or simply the Selke Trophy, is awarded annually to the National Hockey League forward who demonstrates the most skill in the defensive component of the game. 

 

Bo Horvat Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

 

2019-20	24	VAN	NHL	69	22	31	53	-15	21	10	12	0	2	27	4	0	178	12.4	274	1362	19:44	850	633	57.3	66	55	28	27
2020-21	25	VAN	NHL	56	19	20	39	-6	23	11	7	1	3	16	4	0	131	14.5	226	1114	19:53	648	577	52.9	38	64	25	22
2021-22	26	VAN	NHL	70	31	21	52	3	40	17	13	1	4	15	6	0	194	16.0	303	1366	19:31	841	634	57.0	45	96	32	25	Selke-34

 

J.T. Miller Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

 

2019-20	26	VAN	NHL	69	27	45	72	11	47	18	9	0	3	27	16	2	165	16.4	290	1387	20:06	425	293	59.2	38	123	52	36	AS-7,Hart-17,Selke-19
2020-21	27	VAN	NHL	53	15	31	46	-7	43	11	3	1	4	16	15	0	106	14.2	198	1111	20:58	279	247	53.0	24	90	29	47
2021-22	28	VAN	NHL	80	32	67	99	15	47	24	8	0	6	35	30	2	206	15.5	350	1686	21:05	667	566	54.1	56	172	56	62	AS-7,Hart-14,Selke-23

I think Miller is vastly overrated, when talking about his defense.

 

This chart shows, that he’s not even that great of a penalty killer nor his even strength defense results in a positive way.

 

[MrCanuck94]

18 minutes ago, shiznak said:

I think Miller is vastly overrated, when talking about his defense.

 

This chart shows, that he’s not even that great of a penalty killer nor his even strength defense results in a positive way.

 

I've always considered Miller average defensively as well. The weird thing is, I actually think he's good defensively when he's on his game (hence the Selke votes) but his defensive efforts have been inconsistent. IMO I do think overall he is better defensively than Bo.

 

Good to see a huge improvement in his defensive game last season according to that chart. Hope it continues under Bruce.

 

Luckily for Miller, he's elite offensively 

Edited July 31, 2022 by MrCanuck94

[shiznak]

10 minutes ago, MrCanuck94 said:

I've always considered Miller average defensively as well. The weird thing is, I actually think he's good defensively when he's on his game (hence the Selke votes) but his defensive efforts have been inconsistent. IMO I do think overall he is better defensively than Bo.

 

Good to see a huge improvement in his defensive game last season according to that chart. Hope it continues under Bruce.

 

Luckily for Miller, he's elite offensively 

Bo has a lower GA/60 and lower high danger scoring chance against/60 than Miller, while taking twice as much defensive zone faceoffs. He also led the team in minutes against elite competition, before he went down.

 

If Miller was better defensively, you would think BB/Green would put his best defensive player out there against the opposition’s best offensive players. 

[wai_lai416]

 

1 hour ago, Elias Pettersson said:

If Horvat is better than Miller defensively, and it's not even close, then please explain the following:

 

1.  Why is Miller used on the penalty kill twice as often as Horvat?  Isn't the penalty kill role used for players who have superior defensive ability?

2.  Why did Miller finish 23rd in Selke voting in 2021-2022 while Horvat finished 34th if Horvat is better defensively?  Isn't the Selke trophy awarded to the player who demonstrates the best skill defensively?  Also, Miller finished 19th in Selke voting in 2019-2020 while Horvat didn't finish in the rankings at all.

 

The Frank J. Selke Trophy, or simply the Selke Trophy, is awarded annually to the National Hockey League forward who demonstrates the most skill in the defensive component of the game. 

 

Bo Horvat Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

 

2019-20	24	VAN	NHL	69	22	31	53	-15	21	10	12	0	2	27	4	0	178	12.4	274	1362	19:44	850	633	57.3	66	55	28	27
2020-21	25	VAN	NHL	56	19	20	39	-6	23	11	7	1	3	16	4	0	131	14.5	226	1114	19:53	648	577	52.9	38	64	25	22
2021-22	26	VAN	NHL	70	31	21	52	3	40	17	13	1	4	15	6	0	194	16.0	303	1366	19:31	841	634	57.0	45	96	32	25	Selke-34

 

J.T. Miller Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

 

2019-20	26	VAN	NHL	69	27	45	72	11	47	18	9	0	3	27	16	2	165	16.4	290	1387	20:06	425	293	59.2	38	123	52	36	AS-7,Hart-17,Selke-19
2020-21	27	VAN	NHL	53	15	31	46	-7	43	11	3	1	4	16	15	0	106	14.2	198	1111	20:58	279	247	53.0	24	90	29	47
2021-22	28	VAN	NHL	80	32	67	99	15	47	24	8	0	6	35	30	2	206	15.5	350	1686	21:05	667	566	54.1	56	172	56	62	AS-7,Hart-14,Selke-23

lol because pointless 4th and 5th place vote that's all over the map is so important right when only 1st place matters.. because he's so good defensively all his defensive numbers are in the reds in the chart above.. must be his teammate that's causing him to be bad

 

and reasons why Miller have more PK time than horvat?? because Green never used horvat as a penalty killer.. look at all his previous season penalty kill minutes.. it doesn't even break 30mins.. because he saves him for most of the 5v5 mins against other teams top line.. Bo have never really been the go to PK guy on the team.. he was forced into that role with injuries to dickinson and so on.. he used to be more of a win the faceoff clear the puck change center guy.. horvat's penalty kill minutes only started to spike up after boudreau took over.. but you prolly too blind and don't notice his situational usage..

 

bo horvat even strength gave up 48 goals against when he's on the ice against mostly other teams top line and the most defensive start of any forward..

Miller even strength gave up 61 goals against and he doesn't match up against other teams top line most of the time.. 

 

48 goals against top lines vs 61 goals against mostly other lines in less defensive zone starts.. you have to be pretty blind to see whos better defensively.. whatever i don't even care you probably going to argue and say no miller play against the top line of other teams even when it's not true. bo doesn't play as much PK mins therefore he must suck..  

 

1 hour ago, shiznak said:

Bo has a lower GA/60 and lower high danger scoring chance against/60 than Miller, while taking twice as much defensive zone faceoffs. He also led the team in minutes against elite competition, before he went down.

 

If Miller was better defensively, you would think BB/Green would put his best defensive player out there against the opposition’s best offensive players. 

they don't care about those stats.. all they care about is Miller scores more points therefore he is a better defensive player when really he's one of the worse defensive player in the top 6 other than faceoff.. his defensive effort have been atrocous.. if you watch his play in the defensive zone if and when he decides to go back he doesn't pressure the puck at all.. bo plays against the mcdavids mackinnons of the world 5v5 whenever possible.. Miller plays against everyone else.. somehow bo manage to give up less high danger chance and less goals against when he's on the ice than miller but somehow Miller is the superior defensive center giving up more chances and more goals against other teams 2/3/4th line

[wai_lai416]

2 hours ago, MrCanuck94 said:

Miller 27 season: GP 69 G 27 A 45 P 72

Horvat 27 season: GP 70 G 31 A 21 P 52

 

The prior 4 seasons Miller scored at a 52 point pace and Horvat a 59 point pace.

 

Gauging the production is a fair argument, but I'd argue Horvat has maxed out his skillset ceiling while JT took longer to mature and realize his. He definitely has better hockey IQ and playmaking abilities than Bo. There's a reason Petey and Miller were playing more than Bo when all three were C's, and it's not because Bo is more defensive, they're just better.

 

Also, like mentioned above, Bo has not been a defensive center in his career so far. His defensive analytics went from poor to average over time. It's great that he's improving, but he hasn't been a 2 way center in the NHL. I'm hoping he can keep improving his defensive game and become one however. 

bo isn't by any mean a great defensive center.. but he's been played like one majority of the time under green and boudreau.. coz simply there's no one else better.. and like i've said at 27 Miller got the opportunity to be a top line guy playing with EP and Boeser.. Horvat never gotten that opportunity really to play on the top line with the more offensively gifted player.. hypothetical if Bo spent the entire year playing with a healthy EP and boeser.. u don't think he can get maybe 5-10 more goals 10-15 more assist? between EP and boeser that's what? 30 more goals ev right there.. u don't think he would have at least assisted on 1/3-1/2 of them? and if they have a healthy EP feeding him the puck u don't think he can squeeze out 5-10 more goals vs playing with guys that doesn't really have much playmaking ability or finishing ability. 

 

based on what we have seen.. horvat definitely have the capability to score 35-40.. he hit 31 this year in 70 games.. and that's mostly playing with 0 playmakers that gets him the puck in scoring position.. whether he have the playmaking ability? i have no idea he did in jrs before drafted but he never really had the chance in the NHL with anyone capable of finishing so i've no idea..

 

again with the horvat have maxed out and peaked.. so everyone in the league usually continues to get better till 29-30.... horvat is the exception he already maxed out well before that?? and Miller is also the other exception he'll continue to get better well past 30? you guys seriously only likes to see what you want to see.. his goals total have been slowly increasing each year so i have no idea where the he have already peaked is coming from.. unless you are looking at point total only.. goals is a lot harder than assist.. only 1 guy gets credit for goals while there's 2 guy that can get credited for assist.

[48MPHSlapShot]

7 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Yeah I am also confused as to the overhype on BO's defensive game.  If we are talking about play inside our defensive zone then I will take Petey's defensive zone coverage over BO's 10 times out of 10.  In fact, Petey is now playing on the PK along with Miller while BO is not, which tells you who is actually more responsible defensively...

 

As for the Selke, BO finished 34th last year, while Miller finished 23rd, so how is BO even better defensively than Miller?

I think it just comes down to hype from his draft year when he was touted as a strong two way center. Miller is at least as good defensively as Horvat, and Petey is probably better. The only issues with Petey are that he's not great in the circle and he's not as strong as Bo, but if Petey bulks up (which he seems to have) and improves in the circle, I think he has higher potential as a two way center than Bo does. 

[Vermette9]

19 hours ago, bigbadcanucks said:

I wouldn't say best, but I would say most versatile.  Can play in all situations, fairly durable, can play the game any style.

 

If Bo didn't go on his usual 20-game disappearing act every season, he would be the best centerman on the Canucks roster and could be spoken in the same category as Patrice Bergeron and Ryan O'Reilly and Claude Giroux.

Claude giroux  is nowhere near bergy and O'Reilly. Anze Kopitar would be 

[-DLC-]

Hate that we feel a need to compare our players against each other.

 

No "I" in team stuff.

[bigbadcanucks]

1 hour ago, Vermette9 said:

Claude giroux  is nowhere near bergy and O'Reilly. Anze Kopitar would be 

Giroux's 923 career points in 1,018 games, career +34 on questionable teams, F/O win pct. of 55.8%, ability to do this over 13+ seasons, matched up against top opposing centres say otherwise (81 points in 95 playoff games).  His numbers are comparable to Anze Kopitar (1,067 points in 1,210 games; career +63 and 52.8% faceoffs, plus 70 points in 86 playoff games).  Only thing missing from Giroux's resume is a Stanley Cup. 

 

Giroux may be one of the most underrated players of his day.  Thanks for your opinion.

[NewbieCanuckFan]

4 hours ago, wai_lai416 said:

 

lol because pointless 4th and 5th place vote that's all over the map is so important right when only 1st place matters.. because he's so good defensively all his defensive numbers are in the reds in the chart above.. must be his teammate that's causing him to be bad

 

and reasons why Miller have more PK time than horvat?? because Green never used horvat as a penalty killer.. look at all his previous season penalty kill minutes.. it doesn't even break 30mins.. because he saves him for most of the 5v5 mins against other teams top line.. Bo have never really been the go to PK guy on the team.. he was forced into that role with injuries to dickinson and so on.. he used to be more of a win the faceoff clear the puck change center guy.. horvat's penalty kill minutes only started to spike up after boudreau took over.. but you prolly too blind and don't notice his situational usage..

 

bo horvat even strength gave up 48 goals against when he's on the ice against mostly other teams top line and the most defensive start of any forward..

Miller even strength gave up 61 goals against and he doesn't match up against other teams top line most of the time.. 

 

48 goals against top lines vs 61 goals against mostly other lines in less defensive zone starts.. you have to be pretty blind to see whos better defensively.. whatever i don't even care you probably going to argue and say no miller play against the top line of other teams even when it's not true. bo doesn't play as much PK mins therefore he must suck..  

 

they don't care about those stats.. all they care about is Miller scores more points therefore he is a better defensive player when really he's one of the worse defensive player in the top 6 other than faceoff.. his defensive effort have been atrocous.. if you watch his play in the defensive zone if and when he decides to go back he doesn't pressure the puck at all.. bo plays against the mcdavids mackinnons of the world 5v5 whenever possible.. Miller plays against everyone else.. somehow bo manage to give up less high danger chance and less goals against when he's on the ice than miller but somehow Miller is the superior defensive center giving up more chances and more goals against other teams 2/3/4th line

Yeah it's much the same arguments Ive seen when comparing Miller & Lack's numbers.  It's far different pressure when you're just considered the backup than the starting goalie.  Much like a C facing most of the other team's top forwards.  To Miller's credit, he's fully taken advantage of that fact.

[ilduce39]

I’ve always thought Bo was deployed in the matchup role and while his results are “average” that’s pretty good.  
 

I do think Petey’s ceiling is a 1A centre who can go head to head.  He’s datsyukian at his peak. I think Miller’s more of an out score the opposition guy rather than having any real two way chops - but all 3 are effective in their own way. One of the best centre-trios in the league if we keep them together.

[Guest]

22 hours ago, MtnHockeyGuy said:

Trading Bo away will set this franchise back SO much further than people realize. 

1475 Face-off taken with a 57% FOW. 4th most Face-offs in the entire league. Losing this, I don't even know how the team can make this up. 

 

Bo is elite. And coming off his 30 goal campaign I am REALLY excited to see how he does going into next year. I don't care if he doesn't fight or hit, a good leader doesn't have to and everything JR has eluded to states his Captaincy is very beneficial to the team.

 

Horvat should be looking at a very similar contract to Landeskog in my opinion. 7m x 8. Which is extremely doable with the teams cap structure.

 

I'd love Bo to be here forever. The team needs him. It's going to be a great year. 

Extremely similar to Landeskog as you say and I think Bo would be very happy with that contract.  

Money has dried up big time around the league, 7 mil x 8 years would be a huge deal to hand out in today's landscape.  

 

Ryan Nugent-Hopkins signed an 8 year, 5.125 mil deal.  He scores at a slightly higher clip then Bo however both of them seem to score most of their points on the power play and Edmonton's had a lethal one recently.  If I get bored I might look at their 5 v 5 numbers later. 

 

Ideally Bo would slide in somewhere between those two numbers, but yeah I agree that if he were to leave, we would be left with a big hole to fill at center.  Teams go years and years without solving their issues at center (and goaltending).  

 

8 years x 6.5 million would be a deal that both team and player should be happy with IMO (I know it's splitting hairs from the Landeskog numbers). 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Vermette9 said:

Claude giroux  is nowhere near bergy and O'Reilly. Anze Kopitar would be 

Exactly why LA Kings shot up in the rankings all of a sudden.  

 

Kopitar and Danault down the middle is so so good.  This whole notion that their rebuild is what got them here is a bit misguided.  Yes, they have nice complementary pieces that are young, but really their strength begins and ends down the middle of the ice...  and they also play a really well structured game.  Although we beat them a couple of times, I remember one loss to LA Kings where they completely neutralized our offensive game.  

 

Speaking of centers, Ryan O'Reilly is going into the last year of his contract.  He's 31 at the moment and I do wonder what kind of a deal he'll get this upcoming summer.  I think that Kadri's lack of a big deal will be a cautionary tale for a lot of upcoming free agents.  I expect to see a lot of players forego their upcoming free agency and sign big extensions with their clubs.  

 

List of next summer's centers that will be free agents:  

 

1. Jonathan Toews	35	C	UFA	$10,500,000
2. Ryan O'Reilly	32	C	UFA	$7,500,000
3. Mathew Barzal	26	C	RFA	$7,000,000
4. Dylan Larkin	26	C	UFA	$6,100,000
5. Jordan Staal	34	C, LW	UFA	$6,000,000
6. Pierre-Luc Dubois	25	C	RFA	$6,000,000
7. Bo Horvat	28	C	UFA	$5,500,000
8. Lars Eller	34	C	UFA	$3,500,000
9. Dylan Strome	26	C, LW	RFA	$3,500,000

 

You can also add JT Miller, Nick Foligno, and JT Compher to that list as they were primarily listed at wingers instead of centers.  

[EdgarM]

I have said this in another discussion that Bo is our over paid 3rd line center. Miller is currently our #1 Center and Petey will certainly take over that role at some point. Bo is our Manny Maholtra with a little bit more offensive ability. I don't think anyone seen Manny as our #1 Center when he was here.

Bo is missing too many other attributes that many have already mentioned. He is inconsistent at times, does not play an aggressive role as a leader and lacks that #1 center offensive ability. As a shut down guy, i believe he was utilized as such mainly because there was no one on the team that could fill that role. Hank was never going to be that person and there was no one else really before Miller came along. Petey is still developing.

I really think Bo has carried on that "Country Club" mentality as well that has carried over from past leaders. 

There should be a realignment on this team where we save cap space and change the mentality of this team at the same time. 

Many seem to forget that when this team was in total disarray at the beginning of last season, Miller was the only one who was carrying this team and Bo was no where to be found. I would say that Miller has been the most consistent center on this team since he arrived , who coincidentally plays in every situation whether it be PP, PK, over time or taking a key faceoff. These are true signs of a #1 Center IMO.

[SilentSam]

3 hours ago, -DLC- said:

Hate that we feel a need to compare our players against each other.

 

No "I" in team stuff.

Hate is a powerful word too Deb.

 

Thats why I prefer “flipping the tables”,

it used to be popular at the old house wrecking parties I went to  .

 

its a system,   Leaving all emotions motionless on the floor.

 

Edited July 31, 2022 by SilentSam

[SilentSam]

23 hours ago, 48MPHSlapShot said:

Alright, I'll tag him. 

 

@SilentSam

I think this thread is actually exposing why I think Horvat is the better player to trade over Miller.

….  

too add to any of my opinions on this , I’ve realized why Horvat is not on the PK,  and Miller is.

 

Horvat is “club” footed on his side to side motion in a defensive situation..  his static to side to side is slow and easily beatable in tight.

Trips over himself.

He is a tradition forward , straight liner , who has learned to shoulder drop off he gets the outside step..    rarely see him skating backwards.

Skating was his knock when he arrived here,. He has learned to work his strengths,. But there is still this major weakness.

 

it’s like “flipping tables”,   They don’t work so well upside down .

 

@Ghostsof1915,  you guys still in Church

 

Edited July 31, 2022 by SilentSam