Coronavirus outbreak

[Toews]

8 minutes ago, EmilyM said:

I appreciate the answer but will respectfully disagree with your course of action. Of course there will be people on extreme opposite ends of the spectrum for such a tenuous time in our lives (heck, we could barely have a civil discussion on these forums on why Virtanen would get scratched over Loui). At the end of the day, I hope the vast majority supports isolation for this period of our lives and the rest of those, like yourself, do whatever they can within their lifestyle to limit contact with strangers to the best of your ability. I hope that's what you mean by a "measured response".

Nothing would make me happier than seeing you tell me "I told you so" in a month or two

Perhaps you misunderstood my point. I am practicing social distancing and will continue to do so. Other than a walk in the morning where I stay 6ft away from anyone I come across, I am not leaving my house. By not closing the border, the Trudeau government was putting the interests of their benefactors over the health and safety of the public. My point is that if the government's agenda isn't the health and safety of its citizens in this critical time then I and other citizens can disregard any "rules" because not doing so would be enabling hypocrisy. I was living in the Middle East when the Arab Spring occurred, I have experienced lockdowns and martial law being declared. Having lived in countries with authoritarian governments has made me appreciate the freedoms and rights we do possess. People should always be vigilant of their government's actions during situations like this, anyone taking freedom from granted is ignoring history.

[Petey40]

38 minutes ago, samurai said:

Posting fear information or information that is completely wrong is not erring on the side of caution.  I have posted numerous comments on information that people in Canada do not have access to  For example, I reported on the 15 clusters that have been identified in Japan.  I listed them and suggested what the defining features are.   

 

Never claimed to be an authority, but I have been doing my homework on this since early January, and of course the experience   I was here for SARs and knew what was coming.  So did the Taiwanese.   What about the 'authorities' in Canada?   There is nothing wrong with trying to be informed as an authority.   Or is there Deb?    Nothing I have posted is inconsistent with what experts have said.  Show me where?

 

 

 

 

 

 

We appreciate the updates man, anything to do with Covid-19 from any country should be welcomed here. It’s just saying things like “if you have no symptoms you can go out and go about your daily life as normal” is dangerous because we’re being told the complete opposite and to social distance and stay home as much as possible here in Canada. Asymptomatic cases still make up a percentage of the infections and that’s why we’re listening to the Canadian government. If you avoid saying those kinds of things because that is misinformation and dangerous no one will have any issue with you posting about Japan.

[samurai]

Here is what I have been talking about.   This is the road taken and only time will tell.  

 

In Tokyo, while many schools are closed, some large gatherings are canceled, and an unprecedented number of people are working from home, most bars and restaurants are open, lots of people are using crowded public transport, and parents still take their children outside to play, usually without masks. There is plenty of toilet paper on supermarket shelves. In explaining why Japan is not on lockdown, Abe points to Japan's relatively small number of confirmed cases, compared to other countries. It's true the island nation of 125 million people has 873 confirmed cases, compared to 31,506 in Italy, 16,169 in Iran and 8,413 in South Korea.But there is a key difference between Japan and other nations with a skyrocketing infection count: Japan is testing a tiny fraction of people compared to many other countries.

By March 17, Japan tested just 14,525 people, according to the Ministry of Health, although some of those people had been tested multiple times. By contrast, South Korea -- a country that has managed to stabilize a huge outbreak -- can test about 15,000 people a day. Japanese officials have said the country will ramp up its testing capacity to 8,000 people per day by the end of the month.

For an aging society, a significant and rapid spread of coronavirus could have a devastating impact.

Widespread testing is the only way to know for sure if the calm in Tokyo is a true picture of the coronavirus situation in Japan -- or if it is actually the calm before the storm

 

 

[-DLC-]

1 minute ago, samurai said:

Here is what I have been talking about.   This is the road taken and only time will tell.  

 

In Tokyo, while many schools are closed, some large gatherings are canceled, and an unprecedented number of people are working from home, most bars and restaurants are open, lots of people are using crowded public transport, and parents still take their children outside to play, usually without masks. There is plenty of toilet paper on supermarket shelves. In explaining why Japan is not on lockdown, Abe points to Japan's relatively small number of confirmed cases, compared to other countries. It's true the island nation of 125 million people has 873 confirmed cases, compared to 31,506 in Italy, 16,169 in Iran and 8,413 in South Korea.But there is a key difference between Japan and other nations with a skyrocketing infection count: Japan is testing a tiny fraction of people compared to many other countries.

By March 17, Japan tested just 14,525 people, according to the Ministry of Health, although some of those people had been tested multiple times. By contrast, South Korea -- a country that has managed to stabilize a huge outbreak -- can test about 15,000 people a day. Japanese officials have said the country will ramp up its testing capacity to 8,000 people per day by the end of the month.

For an aging society, a significant and rapid spread of coronavirus could have a devastating impact.

Widespread testing is the only way to know for sure if the calm in Tokyo is a true picture of the coronavirus situation in Japan -- or if it is actually the calm before the storm

 

 

What is the source please?

[oldnews]

One of the critical remaining sites where best practices have to improve are in how the grocery stores handle this threat proactively.

 

They are arguably going to remain among the highest of traffic intersections where people can continue to transmit the virus in spite of efforts to self-isolate and distance ourselves.

It is literally a hand to mouth industry where people enter and come in contact with hundreds of items - as does their cashier, and possibly, grocery packer.

 

What we know about viruses is that typically approximately 80% of transmission is by hand and object/surface.

 

What we now know about this virus - is that it can live for hours airborne and for DAYS outside the body, on surfaces, objects.

 

For those of us who provide health care - self-isolation is not an option.

For people working in the grocery industry - they too are  a 'front line' service that people will need to access on an ongoing basis.

 

Existing precautions are insufficient.

 

I observed outside a nearby grocery store today.

 

1) Virtually no one used the wipes/hand sanitizer provided - which themselves are better than nothing, but inferior to hand washing.

2)  There was no one counting entrants - limits of 50 people were significantly surpassed.  Social 'distancing' inside was not practiced / probably not realistic - which only underlines further pre-emptive measures.

 

Wiping handles of carts, baskets, pin pads etc are worthwhile, but reactive, limited measures that are again, better than nothing, but insufficient.

 

What needs to happen - are point of entry hand washing stations outside the entrances of grocery stores, period.

 

Everyone knows - at this point - that the best measures are decisive, early and preventative.  Until we recognize the ongoing vulnerability at these critical locations, we aren't really being effectively proactive - and we're not limiting transmission as much as we could.

 

Talking about a low-tech improvement here - permanent or even triage hand washing stations -where people can also wipe/clean their card/method of payment - and proceed into a stores.   This is an industry that is additionally pressured in the present - high demand, high traffic - and high exposure of staff.  Nevertheless - it is an area that public officials and private interests need to work and act fast to effectively address this vulnerability as promptly as possible   The industry continues to generate revenue - arguably more now than regularly - and are in a 'front line' position where they need to protect themselves and customers - have a responsibility to do so - and need to look at merely installing point of entry handwashing stations - as an opportunity to step up their preventative measures - and provide additonal safety - and confidence - to the public in the process.

 

Understanding the pressure that grocers are already under - suggest it, insist upon it - in the best form/way you can - now - at your local grocery store.

Now is precisely the critical time when health and food safe standards of cleanliness / best practice need to be instituted society wide.  As a young health care practitioner the very first thing a person is trained to do is wash their hands thoroughly at the point of entry (public or private).  This is common sense best practice that needs to be extended to everyday life - public life - at grocery stores - immediately.

 

We can tell people that one of their best defenses is hand washing - but unless we enable that - provide the facilities - at critical sights - we fail to act upon what we know to be simple common sense.   This needs to move beyond simply instructing/'educating' people about hand washing - it needs to be made accessible at key points of vulnerability (in addition to stores in the present, in the future it probably need be a preventative measure at airports, schools, etc - particularly in the context of outbreaks).

Edited March 19, 2020 by oldnews

[samurai]

Just now, debluvscanucks said:

What is the source please?

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/03/18/asia/japan-coronavirus-intl-hnk/index.html

[EmilyM]

1 minute ago, Toews said:

Perhaps you misunderstood my point. I am practicing social distancing and will continue to do so. Other than a walk in the morning where I stay 6ft away from anyone I come across, I am not leaving my house. By not closing the border, the Trudeau government was putting the interests of their benefactors over the health and safety of the public. My point is that if the government's agenda isn't the health and safety of its citizens in this critical time then I and other citizens can disregard any "rules" because not doing so would be enabling hypocrisy. I was living in the Middle East when the Arab Spring occurred, I have experienced lockdowns and martial law being declared. Having lived in countries with authoritarian governments has made me appreciate the freedoms and rights we do possess. People should always be vigilant of their government's actions during situations like this, anyone taking freedom from granted is ignoring history.

Ah, I did misunderstand. I thought you were complaining about today's border closing for non-essential travel, but you were referring to their earlier half-assed "closure". I am in total agreement that our government's initial stance was misguided, wishy-washy, and sending mixed messages to an already vulnerable society.

[Petey40]

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.citynews1130.com/2020/03/18/save-on-foods-limits-hours-purchasing/amp/
 

Save on has started an early hour from 7AM-8AM for seniors and at risk people only at all 178 stores. Good stuff!

[Templeton Peck]

 

[spur1]

An interesting Covid story. I live in a rural area about 5 minutes by vehicle from a small town with a post office, a school, and a store/gas station/liquor. Yesterday as the story goes a couple came into the store and as often happens in small town stores when new people come into the store a conversation was struck up and it turns out the couple had just arrived from Italy via Calgary the day before. When asked about the 14 day quarantine they just chuckled and said ...oh we are fine...well guess what...today the store is closed.

Now I have to go to a bigger center to get my scotch...friggen idiots.

Just goes to show we can shut it down and stop this virus in it's tracks but it only takes a couple idiots to fire it right back up.

Edited March 19, 2020 by spur1

[samurai]

54 minutes ago, Petey40 said:

We appreciate the updates man, anything to do with Covid-19 from any country should be welcomed here. It’s just saying things like “if you have no symptoms you can go out and go about your daily life as normal” is dangerous because we’re being told the complete opposite and to social distance and stay home as much as possible here in Canada. Asymptomatic cases still make up a percentage of the infections and that’s why we’re listening to the Canadian government. If you avoid saying those kinds of things because that is misinformation and dangerous no one will have any issue with you posting about Japan.

If you look at the recent paste of mine it is from an article on CNN about Tokyo.   At this moment in Van people need to mindful of what is happening and how it is being perceived.  Someone on here suggested photo shaming on people that don't obey, that is not the way you go about things.   I have since early January tried to limit outings and that is definitely what you see in Tokyo.  However, as the article explains things are pretty normal.  Now, again time will tell.  But weeks into this things are pretty stable.  

 

I completely believe that asymptomatic people probably transmit (that is not an issue), however most health officials do not believe it is the main driver.  What that means to me is still try and limit things and especially be careful with the elderly and high risk people - I cancelled a visit to my in-laws.  So if you can delay events and so forth do it.  Does it mean raid the supermarket, stop work and lock yourself up for the next month,  no, I don't think so.  You saw my cluster data from Japan.  Those type of settings are ones that i think people in Canada should avoid for the time being.  I have been doing with my family for quite a while now.  Most Japanese are.   

 

I am going to stop posting on here.  The moderator keeps threatening me for not having similar views as her.   

 

I understand your positions and I think we probably have very common ground and understanding on this.  Some people probably got some use out of it.   

 

If you do see a big spike in Japan over the next little while then obviously I was wrong.  If not well  . . .  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 19, 2020 by samurai

[oldnews]

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-study/new-coronavirus-can-persist-in-air-for-hours-and-on-surfaces-for-days-study-idUSKBN2143QP

 

Quote

On plastic and stainless steel, viable virus could be detected after three days. On cardboard, the virus was not viable after 24 hours. On copper, it took 4 hours for the virus to become inactivated.

Quote

The tests show that when the virus is carried by the droplets released when someone coughs or sneezes, it remains viable, or able to still infect people, in aerosols for at least three hours.

 

The previous of those references - that Coronavirus can survive for up to three days on surfaces like plastic and stainless steel - is why it's critically important that people are very careful when they go to their grocery stores.  It makes it extremely challenging  - all the more important that asymptomatic carriers that are not in contact with items after not having washed their hands.  Because asymptomatic carriers generally do not know they carry the virus - most people have not been tested - it is therefore critical that everyone conducts themselves with that care - as if presuming to be an asymptomatic carrier.

 

It is literally impossible for grocery stores to keep every plastic surface in their stores clean - countless products come in plastic, literally thousands of items in every store.

 

You need to touch only what you buy and assume it has been touched already - ie be careful with everything that you then take into your homes.

 

But the bottom line remains - the best preventative, proactive way to deal with this is to provide hand washing stations at point of entry to prevent as much carriage into stores as possible.

 

 

 

[nuckin_futz]

US and South Korea detected their first coronavirus case on the same day -

Thu 19 Mar 2020 01:51:38 GMT

 

Here's a bit of reading via Reuters on the starkly different response to the threat from the two countries. 

• South Korea's swift action

vs,

• delayed and chaotic testing in the United States will cost lives

 

Lengthy story in the link

Link here.

[spur1]

4 minutes ago, oldnews said:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-study/new-coronavirus-can-persist-in-air-for-hours-and-on-surfaces-for-days-study-idUSKBN2143QP

 

 

The previous of those references - that Coronavirus can survive for up to three days on surfaces like plastic and stainless steel - is why it's critically important that people are very careful when they go to their grocery stores.  It makes it extremely challenging  - all the more important that asymptomatic carriers that are not in contact with items after not having washed their hands.  Because asymptomatic carriers generally do not know they carry the virus - most people have not been tested - it is therefore critical that everyone conducts themselves with that care - as if presuming to be an asymptomatic carrier.

 

It is literally impossible for grocery stores to keep every plastic surface in their stores clean - countless products come in plastic, literally thousands of items in every store.

 

You need to touch only what you buy and assume it has been touched already - ie be careful with everything that you then take into your homes.

 

But the bottom line remains - the best preventative, proactive way to deal with this is to provide hand washing stations at point of entry to prevent as much carriage into stores as possible.

 

 

 

When going to grocery stores wear gloves...do not touch your face(easier said than done). Upon arriving home disinfect the products and gloves.

[NewbieCanuckFan]

12 minutes ago, spur1 said:

When going to grocery stores wear gloves...do not touch your face(easier said than done). Upon arriving home disinfect the products and gloves.

If you can still find them, get a box of disposable gloves & use them when out grocery shopping or 'doing an errand that needs to be done outside somewhere'.

[King Heffy]

36 minutes ago, oldnews said:

One of the critical remaining sights where best practices have to improve are in how the grocery stores handle this threat proactively.

 

They are arguably going to remain among the highest of traffic intersections where people can continue to transmit the virus in spite of efforts to self-isolate and distance ourselves.

It is literally a hand to mouth industry where people enter and come in contact with hundreds of items - as does their cashier, and possibly, grocery packer.

 

What we know about viruses is that typically approximately 80% of transmission is by hand and object/surface.

 

What we now know about this virus - is that it can live for hours airborne and for DAYS outside the body, on surfaces, objects.

 

For those of us who provide health care - self-isolation is not an option.

For people working in the grocery industry - they too are  a 'front line' service that people will need to access on an ongoing basis.

 

Existing precautions are insufficient.

 

I observed outside a nearby grocery store today.

 

1) Virtually no one used the wipes/hand sanitizer provided - which themselves are better than nothing, but inferior to hand washing.

2)  There was no one counting entrants - limits of 50 people were significantly surpassed.  Social 'distancing' inside was not practiced / probably not realistic - which only underlines further pre-emptive measures.

 

Wiping handles of carts, baskets, pin pads etc are worthwhile, but reactive, limited measures that are again, better than nothing, but insufficient.

 

What needs to happen - are point of entry hand washing stations outside the entrances of grocery stores, period.

 

Everyone knows - at this point - that the best measures are decisive, early and preventative.  Until we recognize the ongoing vulnerability at these critical locations, we aren't really being effectively proactive - and we're not limiting transmission as much as we could.

 

Talking about a low-tech improvement here - permanent or even triage hand washing stations -where people can also wipe/clean their card/method of payment - and proceed into a stores.   This is an industry that is additionally pressured in the present - high demand, high traffic - and high exposure of staff.  Nevertheless - it is an area that public officials and private interests need to work and act fast to effectively address this vulnerability as promptly as possible   The industry continues to generate revenue - arguably more now than regularly - and are in a 'front line' position where they need to protect themselves and customers - have a responsibility to do so - and need to look at merely installing point of entry handwashing stations - as an opportunity to step up their preventative measures - and provide additonal safety - and confidence - to the public in the process.

 

Understanding the pressure that grocers are already under - suggest it, insist upon it - in the best form/way you can - now - at your local grocery store.

Now is precisely the critical time when health and food safe standards of cleanliness / best practice need to be instituted society wide.  As a young health care practitioner the very first thing a person is trained to do is wash their hands thoroughly at the point of entry (public or private).  This is common sense best practice that needs to be extended to everyday life - public life - at grocery stores - immediately.

 

We can tell people that one of their best defenses is hand washing - but unless we enable that - provide the facilities - at critical sights - we fail to act upon what we know to be simple common sense.   This needs to move beyond simply instructing/'educating' people about hand washing - it needs to be made accessible at key points of vulnerability (in addition to stores in the present, in the future it probably need be a preventative measure at airports, schools, etc - particularly in the context of outbreaks).

Yep.  Great ideas.  Personally, I'm wearing gloves while I shop and using my keys to enter my PIN.  I'm also letting the elderly cut ahead of me in the lineup; get them out of there as soon as possible.  Definitely want to see the belts sanitized more often, as well as the removal of cash as a payment option for manned tills.  I don't want anyone handling cash and then my food.  Finally, cordon off the bulk food and have a staff member dispense orders, similar to the deli.  Way too many hands in the bins.

[oldnews]

7 minutes ago, spur1 said:

When going to grocery stores wear gloves...do not touch your face(easier said than done). Upon arriving home disinfect the products and gloves.

If everyone wore gloves - into clean stores - that would be a good measure.

 

However, not everyone has gloves - in fact a lot of people don't.  Items like gloves have been subject to the same kind of hoarding/rush buying as hand sanitizers, etc.

And I have spoken with store owners and managers who themselves are having difficulty acquiring basics like hand sanitizers at this point to offer to clients at point of entry.

Gloves are essential to a number of industries, including deli, meat, etc departments in stores.  

 

Those things are supply dependent.  Whether it is practical in these circumstances to rely on them - for everyone's use - is debatable.

 

Old fashioned soap and water - not so much - and not as expensive in the long run.

 

Grocery stores are increasingly going to need to evolve to be more 'food safe' from the front door in.

[Petey40]

34 minutes ago, samurai said:

If you look at the recent paste of mine it is from an article on CNN about Tokyo.   At this moment in Van people need to mindful of what is happening and how it is being perceived.  Someone on here suggested photo shaming on people that don't obey, that is not the way you go about things.   I have since early January tried to limit outings and that is definitely what you see in Tokyo.  However, as the article explains things are pretty normal.  Now, again time will tell.  But weeks into this things are pretty stable.  

 

I completely believe that asymptomatic people probably transmit (that is not an issue), however most health officials do not believe it is the main driver.  What that means to me is still try and limit things and especially be careful with the elderly and high risk people - I cancelled a visit to my in-laws.  So if you can delay events and so forth do it.  Does it mean raid the supermarket, stop work and lock yourself up for the next month,  no I don't think so.  You saw my cluster data from Japan.  Those type of settings are ones that i think people in Canada should avoid for the time being.  I have been doing with my family for quite a while know.  Most Japanese are.   

 

I am going to stop posting on here.  The moderator keeps threatening me for not having similar views as her.   

 

I understand your positions and I think we probably have very common ground and understanding on this.  Some people probably got some use out of it.   

 

If you do see a big spike in Japan over the next little while then obviously I was wrong.  If not well  . . .  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/brucelee/2020/03/18/what-percentage-have-covid-19-coronavirus-but-do-not-know-it/amp/

 

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.livescience.com/amp/coronavirus-undiagnosed-spread.html

 

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/03/14/health/coronavirus-asymptomatic-spread/index.html
 

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/03/200316143313.htm
 

https://www.repubblica.it/salute/medicina-e-ricerca/2020/03/16/news/coronavirus_studio_il_50-75_dei_casi_a_vo_sono_asintomatici_e_molto_contagiosi-251474302/?ref=RHPPTP-BH-I251454518-C12-P3-S2.4-T1
 

There have been quite a few stories about asymptomatic carries coming out and that’s why I think a lot of people are reinforcing the point about it. The one in Italian from an immunology professor at a university is particularly grim. It states 50-75% of cases in the region are asymptomatic carriers. 
 

cheers man.

Edited March 19, 2020 by Petey40

[oldnews]

Really - what I'm talking about goes beyond the responsibility of grocers - who have become a 'front line' in a crisis that they weren't necessarily prepared, nor responsible for.

 

The measures of point of entry hand washing - should be approached imo at the level of health ministers and health officers - who should mandate this change - and then provide assistance and resources - in a public private partnership - to get this done asap.

 

Governors are talking about things like utilizing national guard, military, federal military engineers - to build triage or permanemt health care faciilities to prepare for an over-capacitiization of their resources.

 

But right now - we can and should be acting with a similar preventative urgency - at those sites where we remain vulnerable.   While grocers are making some changes - mostly reactive imo - I think there needs to be significantly more done at an intersection where we do actually have an 'opportunity' to proactively 'attack' the spread - in the areas where we are simply not able to social isolate.

[AlwaysACanuckFan]

56 minutes ago, oldnews said:

One of the critical remaining sites where best practices have to improve are in how the grocery stores handle this threat proactively.

 

They are arguably going to remain among the highest of traffic intersections where people can continue to transmit the virus in spite of efforts to self-isolate and distance ourselves.

It is literally a hand to mouth industry where people enter and come in contact with hundreds of items - as does their cashier, and possibly, grocery packer.

 

What we know about viruses is that typically approximately 80% of transmission is by hand and object/surface.

 

What we now know about this virus - is that it can live for hours airborne and for DAYS outside the body, on surfaces, objects.

 

For those of us who provide health care - self-isolation is not an option.

For people working in the grocery industry - they too are  a 'front line' service that people will need to access on an ongoing basis.

 

Existing precautions are insufficient.

 

I observed outside a nearby grocery store today.

 

1) Virtually no one used the wipes/hand sanitizer provided - which themselves are better than nothing, but inferior to hand washing.

2)  There was no one counting entrants - limits of 50 people were significantly surpassed.  Social 'distancing' inside was not practiced / probably not realistic - which only underlines further pre-emptive measures.

 

Wiping handles of carts, baskets, pin pads etc are worthwhile, but reactive, limited measures that are again, better than nothing, but insufficient.

 

What needs to happen - are point of entry hand washing stations outside the entrances of grocery stores, period.

 

Everyone knows - at this point - that the best measures are decisive, early and preventative.  Until we recognize the ongoing vulnerability at these critical locations, we aren't really being effectively proactive - and we're not limiting transmission as much as we could.

 

Talking about a low-tech improvement here - permanent or even triage hand washing stations -where people can also wipe/clean their card/method of payment - and proceed into a stores.   This is an industry that is additionally pressured in the present - high demand, high traffic - and high exposure of staff.  Nevertheless - it is an area that public officials and private interests need to work and act fast to effectively address this vulnerability as promptly as possible   The industry continues to generate revenue - arguably more now than regularly - and are in a 'front line' position where they need to protect themselves and customers - have a responsibility to do so - and need to look at merely installing point of entry handwashing stations - as an opportunity to step up their preventative measures - and provide additonal safety - and confidence - to the public in the process.

 

Understanding the pressure that grocers are already under - suggest it, insist upon it - in the best form/way you can - now - at your local grocery store.

Now is precisely the critical time when health and food safe standards of cleanliness / best practice need to be instituted society wide.  As a young health care practitioner the very first thing a person is trained to do is wash their hands thoroughly at the point of entry (public or private).  This is common sense best practice that needs to be extended to everyday life - public life - at grocery stores - immediately.

 

We can tell people that one of their best defenses is hand washing - but unless we enable that - provide the facilities - at critical sights - we fail to act upon what we know to be simple common sense.   This needs to move beyond simply instructing/'educating' people about hand washing - it needs to be made accessible at key points of vulnerability (in addition to stores in the present, in the future it probably need be a preventative measure at airports, schools, etc - particularly in the context of outbreaks).

Those hand washing stations is a great idea if people actually use them. Case in point, there were I'd say at least 20 people walking in front of me. Half of those looked at the station but kept on walking, other half didn't even look. I squirted two shots in my hands. As I looked behind me others followed suit.