[GDT/PGT] Vancouver Canucks @ Winnterpeg Jets | March 1, 2021 | 5 p.m. PT | SNP, TVAS

[BarnBurner]

6 hours ago, Boudrias said:

Green played 970 NHL games at a 0.47 ppg which is above the norm by anyone's book. It is the coach's job to manage every player. Green often talks about the influence Al Arbour had on his hockey coaching. In an aborted season like this one I think it is a stretch to suggest that Green is losing it. 3 years of steady progression with a very young core. Who knows if there is something in his personality that won't let him take the team further. It will be Benning who will have to make that call. 

 

24 games at 8 - 14 - 2. They have ran the spectrum of 7 - 1 win versus 7-1 losses. A leading scorer who has hit a league leading number of cross bars. A key defender, Hamonic, who has played 3 games? Arguably the worse sched in the NHL to start a season. It sounds like I am making excuses but I think there is a lot of truth to suggest that coach Green, who was the toast of the town, last summer during CUP play, has not lost his cred. The season is half done, their are not likely to make playoffs, play out the season. Deal players who are not in the long term plans, develop and evaluate, rotate the prospects thru the lineup. Worry about the coaching staff after the season is over. Draft a top ten player. Sign Podz and Tryamkin asap. Love to see Tryamkin play 10 games this year.      

First of all, I always appreciate your input. 

 

However, Green was NOT the toast of the town. Me and my buddies were happy and thankful the Canucks went as far they did, but Travis was never in the conversation. Overall, obviously, they performed well in the playoffs, but was that due to the circumstances and energy of the atmosphere, or because Green waved his magic wand?

 

Secondly, I will say, and have already replied to someone questioning this idea - Green obviously had a respectable career, that I knew - but not anywhere what he thought it would be, considering he was a hot shot scorer in the WHL. 

 

And that is my entire idea behind my original thought... if people put you down enough, you start to believe it. 

 

So my point is, maybe it's still lingering within him. Perhaps in some indirect way, he's still holding onto that feeling and channeling it in a very subtle way, which affects the way that he coaches, especially certain players. 

 

I don't know. Do you?

[Angry Goose]

1 minute ago, lmm said:

that would be your opinion

however, I asked you for specifics 

and you give me more opinion

So are you pretending to not recall JV playing with EP and Horvat on multiple occasions throughout the years, or, getting more than enough opportunity in a favorable third line role, or PP time?  How about how you come into the season conditioning wise or what improvement have you shown?  Is Jake earning better looks in practice?

 

What has Jake shown exactly that should earn a consistent top 6 role?  Your answer: not Jakes fault because TG isn't giving him a fair chance. 

[Dumb Nuck]

11 hours ago, SNuck said:

I'll update the lines when we have more info  

Yahtzee!

[GetFocht]

43 minutes ago, lmm said:

name one

Every time he isn't in the press box he is given a chance to earn his playing time. He has become both over rated and over paid. Time to cut bait. 

[rychicken]

52 minutes ago, lmm said:

so you don't have an example better than "everyone knows that" 

to point to 

maybe you could point to one month in time where Jake was not shuffled up and down, in and out of the line up

maybe you could explain to me what it is the coach wants from Jake that would keep him happy

Jake needs to quit cheating on defence by lingering outside the blueline for a couple of seconds - hoping for a breakout that never/rarely happens in the NHL
 

When Jake is in his own zone he needs to intuitively know who his man is - he often comes back into the zone and then stops - like he needs to think for a second "who is my man...oh, it is him" - there isn't time in the NHL to think

When the Canucks obtain possession of the puck in their own zone, Jake needs to support the puck carrier by being a position to take a pass. Jake never seems to create seperation from a check, or when he does, it is because he is too far up-ice for any pass to be successful

shall I go on?

#FlopgunJake

[PhillipBlunt]

1 hour ago, SILLY GOOSE said:

Who are we talking about?

We’re talking about them, as in they. You know........the others. 

[lmm]

2 minutes ago, SILLY GOOSE said:

So are you pretending to not recall JV playing with EP and Horvat on multiple occasions throughout the years, or, getting more than enough opportunity in a favorable third line role, or PP time?  How about how you come into the season conditioning wise or what improvement have you shown?  Is Jake earning better looks in practice?

 

What has Jake shown exactly that should earn a consistent top 6 role?  Your answer: not Jakes fault because TG isn't giving him a fair chance. 

i do not think Jake should be in the top 6.

where did you get that from?

Did Kesler and Burrows start in the top 6?

No.

Did Bo Horvat?

No.

Speaking of Bo, remember a few years back when we thought he was Selke material?

What happened to that?

Jakes offensive game has not progressed to the point that I think he should be in the top 6.

But by the same token Bo's defensive game is really no better than Jakes.

That is also on the coach IMO.

Bo does score enough to stay in the top 6 but he is not good enough defensively for his team to win.

Bo turns 26 in one month and Kesler won the Selke at 26, what happened to Selke Horvat?

 

This thread isn't about how Jake should be treated better than all the rest, its about coaching and developement errors (deftly hidden in the GDT)

And don't think I don't blame Jim also, this is his mess too.

 

[Angry Goose]

3 minutes ago, PhillipBlunt said:

We’re talking about them, as in they. You know........the others. 

If it seems TG has given others a longer leash at times than Virtanen that's a reasonable point, but I'm still uncertain whether that has really held Jake back up until now.

 

Also appreciate the the laugh emoji.  It really gets me in the mood to enjoy a friendly discussion when people mock your post in such a way.

[CptCanuck16]

43 minutes ago, BarnBurner said:

Perhaps in some indirect way, he's still holding onto that feeling and channeling it in a very subtle way, which affects the way that he coaches, especially certain players. 

Good lord, we're pyschoanalizing Green now? Perhaps we need to find out if he had any child hood trauma. It could explain everything! 

[BarnBurner]

1 minute ago, CptCanuck16 said:

Good lord, we're pyschoanalizing Green now? Perhaps we need to find out if he had any child hood trauma. It could explain everything! 

How would you possibly know? I only made a suggestion, get over it.

[CptCanuck16]

23 minutes ago, rychicken said:

Jake needs to quit cheating on defence by lingering outside the blueline for a couple of seconds - hoping for a breakout that never/rarely happens in the NHL
 

When Jake is in his own zone he needs to intuitively know who his man is - he often comes back into the zone and then stops - like he needs to think for a second "who is my man...oh, it is him" - there isn't time in the NHL to think

When the Canucks obtain possession of the puck in their own zone, Jake needs to support the puck carrier by being a position to take a pass. Jake never seems to create seperation from a check, or when he does, it is because he is too far up-ice for any pass to be successful

shall I go on?

#FlopgunJake

How about how we peels off and skates to the bench in the most inopportune times. 3 on 2 rush going back the other way, Jake peels off and heads to the bench. Line mate battles hard to keep the puck in the zone, Jake skates away and heads to the bench. 

 

[CptCanuck16]

4 minutes ago, BarnBurner said:

, get over it.

You going to pyschoanalyze me next if I don't? 

[Angry Goose]

1 hour ago, lmm said:

they have?

when? 

you mean that one game and one shift he got on Petey's line to start the season?

you remember we won that game.

or the 19 shifts (ya I counted) he played with Bo last game

before being pulled befoore the game ended

 

when has Jake been treated with any consistancy other than being demoted, often to the press box 

 

8 minutes ago, lmm said:

i do not think Jake should be in the top 6.

where did you get that from?

Did Kesler and Burrows start in the top 6?

No.

Did Bo Horvat?

No.

Speaking of Bo, remember a few years back when we thought he was Selke material?

What happened to that?

Jakes offensive game has not progressed to the point that I think he should be in the top 6.

But by the same token Bo's defensive game is really no better than Jakes.

That is also on the coach IMO.

Bo does score enough to stay in the top 6 but he is not good enough defensively for his team to win.

Bo turns 26 in one month and Kesler won the Selke at 26, what happened to Selke Horvat?

 

This thread isn't about how Jake should be treated better than all the rest, its about coaching and developement errors (deftly hidden in the GDT)

And don't think I don't blame Jim also, this is his mess too.

 

What?  

 

You state JV shouldn't be in the top 6 and yet you have a problem with how little time JV had on EPs line to start the season.  You don't think JV should be in the top 6 and cite kesler, burrows and bo all starting in the bottom 6, all of which earned top 6 roles.  

 

You ask me what opportunities JV has been given in his tenure here and there's no doubting Jake has been given looks UP AND DOWN the line up and on the PP.  So how exactly is TG preventing Jake from reaching his ceiling, that which you have been ambiguous about.

 

I would absolutely love to hear you defend the claim that Bo is no better defensively than Jake.  Please, I would love to hear that.

 

The selke point is just confusing-where is that coming from, and is that an expectation because it's news to me.

 

 

 

[lmm]

24 minutes ago, rychicken said:

Jake needs to quit cheating on defence by lingering outside the blueline for a couple of seconds - hoping for a breakout that never/rarely happens in the NHL
 

When Jake is in his own zone he needs to intuitively know who his man is - he often comes back into the zone and then stops - like he needs to think for a second "who is my man...oh, it is him" - there isn't time in the NHL to think

When the Canucks obtain possession of the puck in their own zone, Jake needs to support the puck carrier by being a position to take a pass. Jake never seems to create seperation from a check, or when he does, it is because he is too far up-ice for any pass to be successful

shall I go on?

#FlopgunJake

you see, that I can agree with

 

I like when people say things like, "When the Canucks win its always the players and when they lose, its the Coach"

I like that because I think it is true.

I know it is meant to demean posters complaining about the coaching staff, but I think its funny because I think when the team trounces Ottawa for 3 games it actually is the skill of the players more than Green coming up with a brave new plan.

Green is so out of good ideas at this point he is willing to give Jake a chance on a top line.

He does not believe its a good idea, or he wouldn't have shuffled the lines back to normal with 4 minutes to go last game.

Green is in "throw it at the wall and hope it sticks" mode he is so out of ideas. IMO

 

BUt I like your answer better than Silly saying ..."everybody knows..."

There was a thread a while back, "Was Jake mishandled?"

I voted yes

It was not just Green, it was Jim and Willie too.

Jake has been everything for this team in the 6 years he has been here,

The Great White Hope

Local Kid, 6th overall

First kid in the "New Youth movement" (no pressure kid)

goon

Biebers buddy (with his short lived sidekick J-ROD)

1st line

2nd line

3rd line

4th line

5th line

Punching bag

Scape goat

 

BUt like Edgar said, Jake has never had a linemate.

He is mister everything and mister nothing at the same time

And that is why I think the Canucks have failed Jake.

 

Every game I hope he dioes better and every game he lets me down

He just doesn't let me down as badly as Greener and Jim

[DIBdaQUIB]

10 minutes ago, lmm said:

you see, that I can agree with

 

I like when people say things like, "When the Canucks win its always the players and when they lose, its the Coach"

I like that because I think it is true.

I know it is meant to demean posters complaining about the coaching staff, but I think its funny because I think when the team trounces Ottawa for 3 games it actually is the skill of the players more than Green coming up with a brave new plan.

Green is so out of good ideas at this point he is willing to give Jake a chance on a top line.

He does not believe its a good idea, or he wouldn't have shuffled the lines back to normal with 4 minutes to go last game.

Green is in "throw it at the wall and hope it sticks" mode he is so out of ideas. IMO

 

BUt I like your answer better than Silly saying ..."everybody knows..."

There was a thread a while back, "Was Jake mishandled?"

I voted yes

It was not just Green, it was Jim and Willie too.

Jake has been everything for this team in the 6 years he has been here,

The Great White Hope

Local Kid, 6th overall

First kid in the "New Youth movement" (no pressure kid)

goon

Biebers buddy (with his short lived sidekick J-ROD)

1st line

2nd line

3rd line

4th line

5th line

Punching bag

Scape goat

 

BUt like Edgar said, Jake has never had a linemate.

He is mister everything and mister nothing at the same time

And that is why I think the Canucks have failed Jake.

 

Every game I hope he dioes better and every game he lets me down

He just doesn't let me down as badly as Greener and Jim

I think Jake was a big, fast kid with decent hands that dominated in his younger years by playing a physical, simple north south game.  A great candidate for a 3rd or 4th line energy player.  The Nucks were determined to make him worthy of a 6th overall pick and decided to "teach" him to be a "better" player instead of letting him play his game.  He now looks like he doesn't know what to do and is scared to  play the game for fear of doing something wrong  I don't really think he is coasting or lazy, I just think he totally lacks self-confidence in his abilities and yes, I would place that on how he has been developed.   

[ShawnAntoski]

3 hours ago, SILLY GOOSE said:

Ah yes, the blame game.  So if someone unemployed manages to turn things around, do we blame previous social workers beforehand for not getting through to them sooner?  Let's not forget about individual responsibility.  Yeah there are factors that play into it, but it sounds pretty naive to me lay blame solely on TG and JB if JV turns it around.  They've tried to work with the guy and have been pretty darn patient....   

If you read some of past posts, Iam not absolving JV of any responsibilty for his erratic developmental curve.  My main point with the comment is that there are things he can control and there things that are out of his hands.  If he gets traded it is both on him not helping the team and JB deciding it is time to move on. As far as Green & him are concern, it comes down to his deployment and role; ofcourse, he has been given chances (with very short leash) & he hasnt done well (for the most part) but lets face it the staff does have there favorites and the usual suspects of the same player(s) seeing the press box.  

 

Preferably, I hope he gets a chance with a different staff before getting traded and he is underperforming under Greens' & JBs' tenure. 

 

Edited March 1, 2021 by ShawnAntoski

[ShawnAntoski]

11 hours ago, BigTramFan said:

Virtanen has been with the Canucks for 6 seasons now. Two different coaching teams. The NHL is not a development league, we can't hold a spot forever hoping that a player will put it all together. He is what he is. Time for JB to move him on. Good luck to Jake in all that he does.

It has been frustrating to cheer for him but it seems his lack of preparedness due to perhaps poor off ice habits had hurt his on ice performance and trade value.  At this point, he is not winning alot of fans with his on ice play but if the rumoured drama between him & the staff are (somewhat) true then JB has to decide which side he will support (although, it seems odd that he decided to sign a two year deal to stay (?)).

 

Imo, he is a talented player gifted with physical attributes but struggles to create opportunities for himself & others.  The team should know this about him and coaches should just stop putting him in a role he doesnt want to play.  A fourth line of him with Mac seems very intriguing but that line needs a center.

Edited March 1, 2021 by ShawnAntoski

[TNucks1]

 

[BMorrison 7]

12 hours ago, debluvscanucks said:

 

Looks like we’re gonna see more interceptions between peety and brock with that formation 

[lmm]

2 hours ago, EdgarM said:

Everyone? Yeah OK. Jake showed he could produce last year and yet he was demoted back to being a checker. He actually had chemistry with Miller and Petey. That line has basically never tried again. Jake also plays well with Sutter, Green ensures they don't play together anymore. 

You cannot guarantee anything, Jake showed many times he could play but then was demoted as usual.

The playoffs started last year and Jake was benched before it even started! How did he play himself off the roster when the playoffs hadn't even started yet. He was playing during the regular season? 

I can honeslty say Jake has no regular line or regular line mates in the years he has played here, how many of the rest of the Canucks can say that. 

Jake looks beat mentally and I always thought the Coach was there to get the best out of his players, not sure that is happening.

If Green was able to develope this player like he was supposed to do, he would be a force for us and there would be no reason to go after a Toffoli or a Pearson or a Ferlund to compliment our top 6. People look to blame to Jake but he is young player who should have had been brought in an environment that promoted his development. That hasn't happened. 

I agree with everything Edgar says. Especially the bolded.

23 minutes ago, DIBdaQUIB said:

I think Jake was a big, fast kid with decent hands that dominated in his younger years by playing a physical, simple north south game.  A great candidate for a 3rd or 4th line energy player.  The Nucks were determined to make him worthy of a 6th overall pick and decided to "teach" him to be a "better" player instead of letting him play his game.  He now looks like he doesn't know what to do and is scared to  play the game for fear of doing something wrong  I don't really think he is coasting or lazy, I just think he totally lacks self-confidence in his abilities and yes, I would place that on how he has been developed.   

I agree with DibdaQuib also. Especially the bolded  for the sake of Silly's argument.

 

Great candidate for 3-4th line. I agree, but here is where Jim comes in. 

What value (other than being the central piece of the Toffoli trade) did Tim Schaller play on this team?

maybe that is the 4th line spot for Jake in 2018-19, Jake was 22 years old.

for comparison sake Tom Wilson was the12 leading scorer among Caps forwards at 20 and 22 years of age. He is 2 years older than Jake and a 1st round pick.

38 minutes ago, SILLY GOOSE said:

 

What?  

 

You state JV shouldn't be in the top 6 and yet you have a problem with how little time JV had on EPs line to start the season.  You don't think JV should be in the top 6 and cite kesler, burrows and bo all starting in the bottom 6, all of which earned top 6 roles.  

 

You ask me what opportunities JV has been given in his tenure here and there's no doubting Jake has been given looks UP AND DOWN the line up and on the PP.  So how exactly is TG preventing Jake from reaching his ceiling, that which you have been ambiguous about.

 

I would absolutely love to hear you defend the claim that Bo is no better defensively than Jake.  Please, I would love to hear that.

 

The selke point is just confusing-where is that coming from, and is that an expectation because it's news to me.

 

 

 

the first bolded is where we differ in what is an opportunity.

 

5 shifts here and 3 shifts there is not what I call an opportunity, especially when taken in the context given by DibdaQuib about what kind of player Jake might be. 

 

And if you missed the Bo will be a Selke candidate, you either were not here or were not paying attention. It was posted, but too long ago to be found now.

At the time he was being compared to JToews, Selke/Smythe/Messier(i am puking slightly) winner