Israelis and Hamas Conflict/ Netanyahu Out as PM - Coalition Led by Bennett Take Over

[Ilunga]

1 hour ago, Kragar said:

Your aboriginal people say "hi", too.  The differences with our respective aboriginal conflicts and transgressions are that we have all moved far closer to living peacefully than what is seen in Israel.  Maybe they just need more time to get there?  Regardless, the strawman example doesn't fit the discussion.

 

IIRC, Israel is the most democratic country in the ME.  While they have some work to do to improve it, that still gives them a leg up on the rest.

 

I'm guessing we're done here.  Cheers.

I have been the first to point out the injustices done to the indigenous people both here in Aus and in America,checkout the my most recent posts in the US politics thread,what you call living peacefully with them after ethnic cleansing most of them you have consigned the rest to reservations and living conditions that are not far from those of the Palestinians.

As I pointed out in the US politics thread,while missing person statistics are compiled for every demographic,none exist for Native American women.

No one knows how many are missing.

 

If you call my example straw man why do you think Palestine/Israel belongs to the Israeli's/Jews ?

 

So now Israel is just most democratic country in the middle east ?

B'Tselem ,the Israeli Information centre for human rights in the occupied territories,a leading domestic rights group describes Israel 

"  as not a democracy but an apartheid regime that enforces Jewish supremacy over all the land it controls".

 

I guess we are " done here" as you put it because you cannot refute my arguments.

 

Cheers to you..hope you are having a nice long weekend and yes let's hope the habs win that 7th game.

Though as much as I detest the leafs,like my friends in Canada state about french Canadians,at least half of one is alright !

 

Edited May 30, 2021 by Ilunga

[Kragar]

12 hours ago, Ilunga said:

I have been the first to point out the injustices done to the indigenous people both here in Aus and in America,checkout the my most recent posts in the US politics thread,what you call living peacefully with them after ethnic cleansing most of them you have consigned the rest to reservations and living conditions that are not far from those of the Palestinians.

As I pointed out in the US politics thread,while missing person statistics are compiled for every demographic,none exist for Native American women.

No one knows how many are missing.

 

If you call my example straw man why do you think Palestine/Israel belongs to the Israeli's/Jews ?

 

So now Israel is just most democratic country in the middle east ?

B'Tselem ,the Israeli Information centre for human rights in the occupied territories,a leading domestic rights group describes Israel 

"  as not a democracy but an apartheid regime that enforces Jewish supremacy over all the land it controls".

 

I guess we are " done here" as you put it because you cannot refute my arguments.

 

Cheers to you..hope you are having a nice long weekend and yes let's hope the habs win that 7th game.

Though as much as I detest the leafs,like my friends in Canada state about french Canadians,at least half of one is alright !

 

I figured we're done since your previous post had so little bearing on the discussion.  I can only speculate as to why you would include the native people as part of your "argument".

And referring to Israeli terror groups and how bad Netanyahu is nothing new.  

 

You keep insisting I referred to Israel as a "functioning" democracy.  I'm confident I never used that word.  I only said they were the most democratic. I also said they have room for improvement.

 

We're done because we are at an impasse.  You tolerate Hamas because of Israel, and I tolerate Israel because of the actions of Hamas and a couple millennia of mistreatment and persecution of Jews by the rest of those in the ME.  They both have a ways to go before there is peace, we just disagree on who has further to go.

[RUPERTKBD]

Looks like Bibi is on thin ice....

 

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/5/30/israeli-far-right-leader-bennett-joins-anti-netanyahu-camp

Quote

 

Israeli far-right politician Naftali Bennett, a kingmaker whose Yamina party has six key seats in parliament, has said he would join a governing coalition that could end the rule of the country’s longest-serving leader, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.

“It’s my intention to do my utmost in order to form a national unity government along with my friend Yair Lapid, so that, God willing, together we can save the country from a tailspin and return Israel to its course,” Bennett said on Sunday after meeting with his own party, Yamina.

Keep reading

Israel: End of the Benjamin Netanyahu era may be near Why Netanyahu thinks America is stupid

Centrist Lapid has been tasked with forming a new cabinet by 11:59pm (20:59 GMT) Wednesday.

Bennett’s announcement is a key step towards ending Netanyahu’s 12-year rule.

He said he had made the decision to prevent the country from sliding into a fifth consecutive election in just more than two years.

Minutes after Bennett’s announcement, Netanyahu lashed out, calling the plan “a danger for the security of Israel”.

 

 

 

[drummer4now]

19 hours ago, Ilunga said:

I have been the first to point out the injustices done to the indigenous people both here in Aus and in America,checkout the my most recent posts in the US politics thread,what you call living peacefully with them after ethnic cleansing most of them you have consigned the rest to reservations and living conditions that are not far from those of the Palestinians.

As I pointed out in the US politics thread,while missing person statistics are compiled for every demographic,none exist for Native American women.

No one knows how many are missing.

 

If you call my example straw man why do you think Palestine/Israel belongs to the Israeli's/Jews ?

 

So now Israel is just most democratic country in the middle east ?

B'Tselem ,the Israeli Information centre for human rights in the occupied territories,a leading domestic rights group describes Israel 

"  as not a democracy but an apartheid regime that enforces Jewish supremacy over all the land it controls".

 

I guess we are " done here" as you put it because you cannot refute my arguments.

 

Cheers to you..hope you are having a nice long weekend and yes let's hope the habs win that 7th game.

Though as much as I detest the leafs,like my friends in Canada state about french Canadians,at least half of one is alright !

 

Mate you can't compare problems in the first world to problems in the third world... 

 

The indigenous people that live here have way better lives than the Palestinians that I know for certain. 

 

Gaza is under a blockade and the West Bank is being annexed.. 

Edited May 31, 2021 by drummer4now

[CBH1926]

6 hours ago, Kragar said:

I figured we're done since your previous post had so little bearing on the discussion.  I can only speculate as to why you would include the native people as part of your "argument".

And referring to Israeli terror groups and how bad Netanyahu is nothing new.  

 

You keep insisting I referred to Israel as a "functioning" democracy.  I'm confident I never used that word.  I only said they were the most democratic. I also said they have room for improvement.

 

We're done because we are at an impasse.  You tolerate Hamas because of Israel, and I tolerate Israel because of the actions of Hamas and a couple millennia of mistreatment and persecution of Jews by the rest of those in the ME.  They both have a ways to go before there is peace, we just disagree on who has further to go.

Anytime these types of discussions pop up, I don’t disagree that Israel has been very rough with their treatment of the Palestinians. Very few countries besides U.S and Israel would be allowed to get away with extreme renditions, torture, Guantanamo, assassinations etc. With all that being said, few other historical facts come to mind.

 

Grand mufti of Jerusalem was very close with Hitler, Himmler, Eichman, Ribbentrop etc.

Same guy helped recruit thousands of Bosnian Muslims as members of SS Waffen Handschar Division.

Even today, comments how Hitler got it right, are very prevalent on social media amongst Muslims.

 

Grand mufti was fully aware of the final solution, which he denied after Germany lost.

Also during the WW2, many Arab leaders supported Hitler and carried their own attacks on Jews.

Farhud Iraq comes to my mind, Libya, Syria etc, also fun fact, Ba’ath party modeled itself after nazis.

 

During the war and right after, in many Arab countries, Jews weren’t allowed drivers licenses, certain jobs, to sell their property etc. In 1945 there were roughly 880k Jews in Arab nations, today around 8k, sure they all volunteered to move to Israel, just like Palestinians are volunteering to leave Gaza and West Bank today.

 

Protocols of the elders of Zion has been translated to Arabic in 1920s and stories that Jews created Aids, Holocaust is a myth etc. have been broadcasted and published in many official Arab media’s. The only topic where radical Muslims get along with nazis and white supremacists, is that of ZOG. They are locked step in step.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 31, 2021 by CBH1926

[Warhippy]

On 5/29/2021 at 3:46 PM, Kragar said:

I guess you use your phone here more than I do, and don't see my location in Huntington Beach, or have forgotten previous discussions regarding California.  Didn't you used to be in the Bay area at some point?  Regardless, no worries.

 

I don't argue the bolded, and I never have.  Since other terror organizations or states insist on supplying Hamas with weapons, a blockade to that end is not unreasonable, although it would be good to see their humanitarian needs better fulfilled.  And, the blockade is not solely enforced by Israel, FWIW.  

 

Regardless, I still think the rest of the bolded pales in comparison to Palestinian atrocities in the last 70+ years.  Apparently you don't.  And I guess we can leave it at that.

 

I wasn't trying to bait you, I just haven't read everything you wrote on the subject to know where you stood.  Some people think that is a valid position, and could probably find plenty of historical facts to defend it.  I'm glad you don't share it.  However, I could argue your comment about "higher class" of citizen is also childish.  My comment was solely based on maintaining Israel as a Jewish state, per its origins, and NOT an attempt to classify Palestinians as lesser.  If the Jews become outnumbered in their own country, the Jewish state will cease to exist.  If you think the laws in Israel are unjust to Arabs (and I'm sure we could find some common ground there), what do you think would happen when Jews are a minority in their own country... something that the Right to Return would definitely lead to.  I don't want to see a repeat of 1930's Germany in Israel.  I am guessing you don't either, but you appear unwilling or unable to see what any 2-state solution acceptable to the Palestinians would result in.

 

I'm off to enjoy the long weekend, and hope the Habs take it in 7.  

Need I remind you of the founding of Israel and the King david event.

 

Israel was FOUNDED on appropriated land and blood.  For every "atrocity" you attest the Palestinians have committed I can show you 5 punishments the Israeli's have handed them, many until the 6 day war justified 

 

Everything since has been creeping annexation at the hands of the IDF, the ultra orthodox sects holding power wishing a return to the promised land scenario and the American and until recently British vetos.

 

We are well past the time for tit for tat, that ended the moment Israel lied about their nuclear program and got away with it.  Any other ME nation risking attacking the Israeli borders or people would be turned in to glass in short order.

With overwhelming arms, armaments, money and the backing of the largest military presence in the world that has effectively ringed every ME nation with a massive air force, naval force AND ground forces; it is time for Israel to stop all encroachment and start actually actively seeking a two part solution to this because they hold every single card in the deck and still take more.

 

Any movement towards peace now lies in the hands of the player with the biggest pointiest stick.

Edited May 31, 2021 by Warhippy

[Alflives]

55 minutes ago, CBH1926 said:

Anytime these types of discussions pop up, I don’t disagree that Israel has been very rough with their treatment of the Palestinians. Very few countries besides U.S and Israel would be allowed to get away with extreme renditions, torture, Guantanamo, assassinations etc. With all that being said, few other historical facts come to mind.

 

Grand mufti of Jerusalem was very close with Hitler, Himmler, Eichman, Ribbentrop etc.

Same guy helped recruit thousands of Bosnian Muslims as members of SS Waffen Handschar Division.

Even today, comments how Hitler got it right, are very prevalent on social media amongst Muslims.

 

Grand mufti was fully aware of the final solution, which he denied after Germany lost.

Also during the WW2, many Arab leaders supported Hitler and carried their own attacks on Jews.

Farhud Iraq comes to my mind, Libya, Syria etc, also fun fact, Ba’ath party modeled itself after nazis.

 

During the war and right after, in many Arab countries, Jews weren’t allowed drivers licenses, certain jobs, to sell their property etc. In 1945 there were roughly 880k Jews in Arab nations, today around 8k, sure they all volunteered to move to Israel, just like Palestinians are volunteering to leave Gaza and West Bank today.

 

Protocols of the elders of Zion has been translated to Arabic in 1920s and stories that Jews created Aids, Holocaust is a myth etc. have been broadcasted and published in many official Arab media’s. The only topic where radical Muslims get along with nazis and white supremacists, is that of ZOG. They are locked step in step.

 

 

 

 

Until the Arab nations recognize the Jewish State of Israel, will this violence (and suffering of the innocent) see an end?  

[Warhippy]

1 minute ago, Alflives said:

Until the Arab nations recognize the Jewish State of Israel, will this violence (and suffering of the innocent) see an end?  

At this stage, has anything, does anything or will anything they say actually come to any sort of conflict?

We're literally speaking of only Iran now and Iran can't do jack because the US has a fleet in their backyard.

Jordan, Egypt, Syria...all either out of the conflict or out of the fight entirely due to in nation instability.

 

The constant "arab nations need to recognize" is a farce because they ALL do.  Even Iran has recognized their right to exist and statehood except for their ayatollah who, let's face it is little more than a mouthpiece right now

 

Israel IS recognized and nothing will change that.  All of Israels surrounding nations are on to bigger and better things and know better than to mess with the only nuclear power in the ME while their nations are literally surrounded and infested with US air and military bases while an entire battle fleet sits in the Persian Gulf permanently.  

 

 

[Ilunga]

4 hours ago, drummer4now said:

Mate you can't compare problems in the first world to problems in the third world... 

 

The indigenous people that live here have way better lives than the Palestinians that I know for certain. 

 

Gaza is under a blockade and the West Bank is being annexed.. 

 

Brother I can assure the first nations people of America and Australia do not feel like members of " the first world",even though they are the people who were here first.

 

I suggest you research how first nations people are treated in the US and my country.

Sure we did our Ethnic cleansing 150-200 years ago.

While the rest who are still alive do not live under military occupation,they live in conditions that are ghetto like in their own right.

For starters check out the Forbes article whose title is, 5 Ways the Government Keeps Native Americans in Poverty.

 

 

Koori people represent 3 percent of our population yet 17 percent of them are in jail apart from Western Australia were they make up 43 percent of people in jail and the Northern Territory were they make up 84 percent of the people in jail.

There has been a terrible problem of deaths while in custody.

 

I do not want to offend you however I am very passionate about this subject.

Now you sitting in your nice home might not identify them with the Palestinians, however they certainly do.

 

 

[Ilunga]

11 hours ago, Kragar said:

I figured we're done since your previous post had so little bearing on the discussion.  I can only speculate as to why you would include the native people as part of your "argument".

And referring to Israeli terror groups and how bad Netanyahu is nothing new.  

 

You keep insisting I referred to Israel as a "functioning" democracy.  I'm confident I never used that word.  I only said they were the most democratic. I also said they have room for improvement.

 

We're done because we are at an impasse.  You tolerate Hamas because of Israel, and I tolerate Israel because of the actions of Hamas and a couple millennia of mistreatment and persecution of Jews by the rest of those in the ME.  They both have a ways to go before there is peace, we just disagree on who has further to go.

You stated that you believed Israel belonged to the Jews.

I believe you meant this to mean you thought this because they had a longer presence there.

 

I have insisted nothing.

You claimed that Israel was the only Democracy in the middle east,I presented evidence that refuted that.

 

I do not tolerate Hamas !

I have condemned them as a terrorist organisation that uses the Palestinians people for its own ends to the detriment of the Palestinian people.

 

You seem to be forgetting the point I am making.

My point is

 not just about peace but more about Israel's treatment of the Palestinian people.

You would believe that a people,that as you stated have been persecuted for a couple of millennia would not persecute others in the way they have been persecuted.

However that is what sapiens do,we repeat patterns of behaviour we have witnessed or endured.

[4petesake]

7 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

Brother I can assure the first nations people of America and Australia do not feel like members of " the first world",even though they are the people who were here first.

 

I suggest you research how first nations people are treated in the US and my country.

Sure we did our Ethnic cleansing 150-200 years ago.

While the rest who are still alive do not live under military occupation,they live in conditions that are ghetto like in their own right.

For starters check out the Forbes article whose title is, 5 Ways the Government Keeps Native Americans in Poverty.

 

 

Koori people represent 3 percent of our population yet 17 percent of them are in jail apart from Western Australia were they make up 43 percent of people in jail and the Northern Territory were they make up 84 percent of the people in jail.

There has been a terrible problem of deaths while in custody.

 

I do not want to offend you however I am very passionate about this subject.

Now you sitting in your nice home might not identify them with the Palestinians, however they certainly do.

 

 

 

Two headlines further  to your point...this first one is a story very much in the news locally. The second is widespread across Canada.  I’ll only post the headlines since we are here in this thread.

First Nation in Kamloops, B.C., confirms bodies of 215 children buried at former residential school site

By James Peters  CFJC Today

Posted May 27, 2021 5:48 pm

 Updated May 28, 2021 7:33 pm

      
 

                                                                                   *****

 

Too many First Nations lack clean drinking water and it's Ottawa's fault, says auditor general

Liberal government won't meet goal to lift all boil-water advisories for several years, audit finds

 

[Ilunga]

9 minutes ago, 4petesake said:

 

Two headlines further  to your point...this first one is a story very much in the news locally. The second is widespread across Canada.  I’ll only post the headlines since we are here in this thread.

First Nation in Kamloops, B.C., confirms bodies of 215 children buried at former residential school site

By James Peters  CFJC Today

Posted May 27, 2021 5:48 pm

 Updated May 28, 2021 7:33 pm

      
 

                                                                                   *****

 

Too many First Nations lack clean drinking water and it's Ottawa's fault, says auditor general

Liberal government won't meet goal to lift all boil-water advisories for several years, audit finds

 

All this breaks my heart Pete.

 

I often think if people wonder why our countries were pristine when white first people came here.

It's because the first nations people lived in harmony with the environment-flora-fauna-they lived with.

There was conflict at times but never like European wars.

One act of bravery for plains native Americans in conflict was "counting coup",to actually touch your combatant in mortal combat thereby shaming them rather than killing them.

That was considered far more "honourable".

Edited May 31, 2021 by Ilunga

[Ilunga]

7 hours ago, CBH1926 said:

Anytime these types of discussions pop up, I don’t disagree that Israel has been very rough with their treatment of the Palestinians. Very few countries besides U.S and Israel would be allowed to get away with extreme renditions, torture, Guantanamo, assassinations etc. With all that being said, few other historical facts come to mind.

 

Grand mufti of Jerusalem was very close with Hitler, Himmler, Eichman, Ribbentrop etc.

Same guy helped recruit thousands of Bosnian Muslims as members of SS Waffen Handschar Division.

Even today, comments how Hitler got it right, are very prevalent on social media amongst Muslims.

 

Grand mufti was fully aware of the final solution, which he denied after Germany lost.

Also during the WW2, many Arab leaders supported Hitler and carried their own attacks on Jews.

Farhud Iraq comes to my mind, Libya, Syria etc, also fun fact, Ba’ath party modeled itself after nazis.

 

During the war and right after, in many Arab countries, Jews weren’t allowed drivers licenses, certain jobs, to sell their property etc. In 1945 there were roughly 880k Jews in Arab nations, today around 8k, sure they all volunteered to move to Israel, just like Palestinians are volunteering to leave Gaza and West Bank today.

 

Protocols of the elders of Zion has been translated to Arabic in 1920s and stories that Jews created Aids, Holocaust is a myth etc. have been broadcasted and published in many official Arab media’s. The only topic where radical Muslims get along with nazis and white supremacists, is that of ZOG. They are locked step in step.

 

 

 

 

As I read this post I note that the group's you mention have radical fundamental beliefs.

 

Christians,Muslims, Nazis even the Jews/Israeli's since the formation of their state.

War/conflict to these guys is like how they describe their god,was/is/always will be.

 

 

Makes me feel good about being a agnostic humanist.

We don't $#@$ with others,in many cases like myself we help others who do not have the quality of life we do.

 

We actually act in the the way religious dudes preach,we treat others the way we wish to be treated ourselves,unlike so many of them.

 

That's why the conflict between the Isreali's and Palestinians and our treatment of our first nations people here in our countries upsets me so much.

I would not want to be treated this way myself and I am certain that the Israeli's would not want to be treated the way they treat the Palestinians.

White Americans,Australians and Canadians would not want to be treated ourselves in the way we treat our first nations people.

 

 

 

Edited May 31, 2021 by Ilunga

[Kragar]

10 hours ago, Ilunga said:

You stated that you believed Israel belonged to the Jews.

I believe you meant this to mean you thought this because they had a longer presence there.

 

I have insisted nothing.

You claimed that Israel was the only Democracy in the middle east,I presented evidence that refuted that.

 

I do not tolerate Hamas !

I have condemned them as a terrorist organisation that uses the Palestinians people for its own ends to the detriment of the Palestinian people.

 

You seem to be forgetting the point I am making.

My point is

 not just about peace but more about Israel's treatment of the Palestinian people.

You would believe that a people,that as you stated have been persecuted for a couple of millennia would not persecute others in the way they have been persecuted.

However that is what sapiens do,we repeat patterns of behaviour we have witnessed or endured.

What I said was: Israel was established as a Jewish state.  I also said that the continued existence of Israel depends on its maintaining its Jewish majority.  Since Hamas, the elected leadership of Palestinians in Gaza, demands Right of Return for those that you were worried were displaced in 1948, plus their millions of descendants, that would immediately end this majority, Israel would be gone. 

 

When you repeatedly claim I refer to Israel as a "functioning" democracy, I took that as insisting, especially because I never said it.  Nor did I ever say they were the only democracy. I did say they were the most democratic, and that they needed improvement.  Your evidence, mixed with opinion, doesn't refute anything, but does provide detail for the improvement I referred to.  

 

Your point about Israel's treatment of Palestinians has been clear to me throughout the discussion.  My point is that it pales in comparison to Israel's treatment by the hands of Palestinians AND the rest of their neighbors in the ME.   

 

Yes, you might well draw that conclusion, that Israel might not persecute others given what they had experienced for millennia.  But then, they didn't invade their neighbors as soon as Israel was formed 1948.  They didn't initiate the blockade that led to war in 1967.  They didn't invade their neighbors on Yom Kippur 1973.  Let's not forget 3 decades of Palestinian insurgencies and a couple Intifadas.  Aren't all of these in contradiction to the UN as well?  Gaza elects a terrorist organization as its leadership, an organization that pledges the destruction of Israel.  Is it not imaginable that these repeated offenses be met with (even violent) persecution from time to time.

 

Since it appears you take more offense at Israel's persecution of Palestinians than at what I list in the previous paragraph (and more), that's why we're at an impasse. 

[Kragar]

15 hours ago, Warhippy said:

Need I remind you of the founding of Israel and the King david event.

 

Israel was FOUNDED on appropriated land and blood.  For every "atrocity" you attest the Palestinians have committed I can show you 5 punishments the Israeli's have handed them, many until the 6 day war justified 

 

Everything since has been creeping annexation at the hands of the IDF, the ultra orthodox sects holding power wishing a return to the promised land scenario and the American and until recently British vetos.

 

We are well past the time for tit for tat, that ended the moment Israel lied about their nuclear program and got away with it.  Any other ME nation risking attacking the Israeli borders or people would be turned in to glass in short order.

With overwhelming arms, armaments, money and the backing of the largest military presence in the world that has effectively ringed every ME nation with a massive air force, naval force AND ground forces; it is time for Israel to stop all encroachment and start actually actively seeking a two part solution to this because they hold every single card in the deck and still take more.

 

Any movement towards peace now lies in the hands of the player with the biggest pointiest stick.

And, in spite of all that, you still support the existence of Israel?

 

The UN had to appropriate land from somewhere to set up Israel.  Also, doesn't the prompt reaction to this establishment of Israel by Iraq, Syria, Egypt, Lebanon, Transjordan, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, and Palestinians stand as an affront to the UN?

 

What does their secrecy over their nuclear program have to do with anything?  Their nuclear weapons didn't prevent the Yom Kippur War.  

 

The fact remains that Palestinians have chosen to be represented by a terrorist organization, whose long-term goal is the extermination of Israel, and short-term goal is a two-state solution with Right of Return (which makes their long-term goal actually a medium-term goal).  If there is no negotiation away from Right of Return, there is no viable two-state solution.  Period.

[Gnarcore]

16 hours ago, Ilunga said:

All this breaks my heart Pete.

 

I often think if people wonder why our countries were pristine when white first people came here.

It's because the first nations people lived in harmony with the environment-flora-fauna-they lived with.

There was conflict at times but never like European wars.

One act of bravery for plains native Americans in conflict was "counting coup",to actually touch your combatant in mortal combat thereby shaming them rather than killing them.

That was considered far more "honourable".

In North America is was pretty much perpetual conflict. Sure it wasn't n the scale of Europe but the wholesale slaughter and/or enslavement of certain nations is a well documented thing. Especially here on the west coast. 

 

http://admin.itsmysite.com/cgi-bin/itsmy/itsmy.exe?trnsid=0&previewmode=1&extval=file.dat&page=2&sessid=112101110116105099116111110116119111A108097119115111110&sesstm=049053058052054058048053032050048049050

 

I had to laugh at this part...reminds me of some people I knew from the Cape back when I lived in Campbell River. But the name used for their nation is not what I remember. 

 

Quote

The factor told the young Scotsman that it was a dangerous mission; the natives were not well-known to the company but their relatives at Cape Mudge, the Euclataws, had a very bad reputation for treachery and theft. If the
Qualicums refused to give him any information, he was to leave their camp at once and use his own discretion in completing the assignment.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 31, 2021 by Gnarcore

[Ilunga]

7 hours ago, Kragar said:

What I said was: Israel was established as a Jewish state.  I also said that the continued existence of Israel depends on its maintaining its Jewish majority.  Since Hamas, the elected leadership of Palestinians in Gaza, demands Right of Return for those that you were worried were displaced in 1948, plus their millions of descendants, that would immediately end this majority, Israel would be gone. 

 

When you repeatedly claim I refer to Israel as a "functioning" democracy, I took that as insisting, especially because I never said it.  Nor did I ever say they were the only democracy. I did say they were the most democratic, and that they needed improvement.  Your evidence, mixed with opinion, doesn't refute anything, but does provide detail for the improvement I referred to.  

 

Your point about Israel's treatment of Palestinians has been clear to me throughout the discussion.  My point is that it pales in comparison to Israel's treatment by the hands of Palestinians AND the rest of their neighbors in the ME.   

 

Yes, you might well draw that conclusion, that Israel might not persecute others given what they had experienced for millennia.  But then, they didn't invade their neighbors as soon as Israel was formed 1948.  They didn't initiate the blockade that led to war in 1967.  They didn't invade their neighbors on Yom Kippur 1973.  Let's not forget 3 decades of Palestinian insurgencies and a couple Intifadas.  Aren't all of these in contradiction to the UN as well?  Gaza elects a terrorist organization as its leadership, an organization that pledges the destruction of Israel.  Is it not imaginable that these repeated offenses be met with (even violent) persecution from time to time.

 

Since it appears you take more offense at Israel's persecution of Palestinians than at what I list in the previous paragraph (and more), that's why we're at an impasse. 

I never used the word "functioning".

Probably the only society' on this planet with the closet thing to a functioning democracy are the Scandinavian countries and like all things human they are not perfect.

 

Israel was founded on terrorist acts by terrorist groups and the Palestinians responded in kind.

So while we can argue about events last century their can be no arguments about what has happened on this century.

 

When did the Israeli's ever live in ghetto like conditions in Israel ?

Never.

The Palestinians have and continue to live in ghetto like conditions.

How can you say 6000 odd casualties and deaths can compare with 115,000 casualties and deaths.

And that's only since 2008

If you had been promised your land and the people that promised it to you kept on taking it away and killing your loved ones what would you do ?

In the last 20 years which people do you think have suffered and are still suffering the most ?

 

 

I will put it to you this way if you had a choice of only 2 places to live right now on this planet ,Gaza or Tel Aviv which place would you choose and why ?

[Ilunga]

2 hours ago, Gnarcore said:

In North America is was pretty much perpetual conflict. Sure it wasn't n the scale of Europe but the wholesale slaughter and/or enslavement of certain nations is a well documented thing. Especially here on the west coast. 

 

http://admin.itsmysite.com/cgi-bin/itsmy/itsmy.exe?trnsid=0&previewmode=1&extval=file.dat&page=2&sessid=112101110116105099116111110116119111A108097119115111110&sesstm=049053058052054058048053032050048049050

 

I had to laugh at this part...reminds me of some people I knew from the Cape back when I lived in Campbell River. But the name used for their nation is not what I remember. 

 

 

 

 

 

Sounds like the young Scotsman had found the Indian tribe that resembled clan Campbell.

 

Don't get me wrong I hold my Scottish identity dear.

However the clans of Scotland and the Indian tribes of western Canada seem to have a lot in common.

[Kragar]

15 hours ago, Ilunga said:

I never used the word "functioning".

Probably the only society' on this planet with the closet thing to a functioning democracy are the Scandinavian countries and like all things human they are not perfect.

 

Israel was founded on terrorist acts by terrorist groups and the Palestinians responded in kind.

So while we can argue about events last century their can be no arguments about what has happened on this century.

 

When did the Israeli's ever live in ghetto like conditions in Israel ?

Never.

The Palestinians have and continue to live in ghetto like conditions.

How can you say 6000 odd casualties and deaths can compare with 115,000 casualties and deaths.

And that's only since 2008

If you had been promised your land and the people that promised it to you kept on taking it away and killing your loved ones what would you do ?

In the last 20 years which people do you think have suffered and are still suffering the most ?

 

 

I will put it to you this way if you had a choice of only 2 places to live right now on this planet ,Gaza or Tel Aviv which place would you choose and why ?

We're both wrong.  You only said it once, so it wasn't repeatedly.  I guess I just read it enough times.

 

On 5/29/2021 at 8:10 PM, Ilunga said:

The Native American people such as the Yuroks,Karoks,Maidu amongst others lived where you now live for over 20,000 years before you got there.

Want to hand your land back to them ?

 

Earlier in this thread I listed about a dozen Israeli terror groups that are or have been active since the 1980's.

 

As for your comment that Israel has a functioning democracy,they have had 4 elections in the last 2 years, their longest serving leader  Ben netanyahu is the corrupt middle eastern version of trump and while the Israeli president Reuven Rivlin has asked Yair Lapid to form a government we will have to wait and see whether it can function.

However, you do continue to make irrelevant, tangential comments and put words in my mouth.  Please stop.

 

If you had been promised your land, and the next day all your neighbors try to take it away, how are you going to treat your neighbors in the future, especially the ones that still want to kill you and take your land?

 

If the Palestinians get rid of Hamas, give up on Right of Return, and give up on River to the Sea, and stop instigating anything, then the rest of the world will join in the disgust of Israel, assuming they continue their distasteful actions. 

 

Since Palestinians choose Hamas to lead them, and Hamas wants to destroy Israel, Israel will continue to get the benefit of the doubt for most/any illegal action they take.  I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Palestinians need to start taking the high road.

 

I really am done now.  And the Habs made us both smile.  So, at least we have that.

[UKNuck96]

44 minutes ago, Kragar said:

We're both wrong.  You only said it once, so it wasn't repeatedly.  I guess I just read it enough times.

 

However, you do continue to make irrelevant, tangential comments and put words in my mouth.  Please stop.

 

If you had been promised your land, and the next day all your neighbors try to take it away, how are you going to treat your neighbors in the future, especially the ones that still want to kill you and take your land?

 

If the Palestinians get rid of Hamas, give up on Right of Return, and give up on River to the Sea, and stop instigating anything, then the rest of the world will join in the disgust of Israel, assuming they continue their distasteful actions. 

 

Since Palestinians choose Hamas to lead them, and Hamas wants to destroy Israel, Israel will continue to get the benefit of the doubt for most/any illegal action they take.  I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Palestinians need to start taking the high road.

 

I really am done now.  And the Habs made us both smile.  So, at least we have that.

Thing is when the plo gave up arms they did exactly this, didn’t turn out that well for them