With the Leafs loss to the Habs, guys like Rick Dhaliwal,Thomas Drance, JD Burke, 650 Sportsnet, and HF Canucks have received VERY huge blows

[EddieVedder]

16 hours ago, oldnews said:

I remember when the Travis Yosts of the hockey world blew a head gasket over the Weber/Subban deal.

 

Simply because smarmies in an echo chamber posture as "pundits" and launch endless tweets - doesn't mean you should listen - doesn't mean you shouldn't think for yourself - do your own 'analyzing' - think of the larger picture - watch the games with your own eyes - and look at the objective outcomes - from an integrative perspective (not simply star gazing).

 

The Toronto loss was somewhat predictable.  If 'history' didn't teach people that - 'analyzing' what it takes to win in the playoffs, might have.

 

The Habs outskated, outhit the Leafs.  People cling to oversimplifications like "the Leafs have more talent" - but that's no more explanatory than the oversimplification I just offered.   The Habs took their time and space away.  Toronto's bread and butter puck movement - turned into flagging under pressure, giving the puck away, an inability to dictate the tempo of the games, and ultimately having their confidence broken, yet again.  They were also unable to force the Habs to cheat the game - and therefore the Habs did not spend as much time in the penalty box as the Leafs needed them to.  The Leafs needed to win that series on the powerplay - because at 5on5, they were, at best, a break even team.  The problem with breaking even against a team like the Habs - is that the Habs have Carey Price - and they have these elements that aren't easy to 'define' - like Gallagher's sheer will, or Suzuki's penchant for the moment, or Perry's ability to drive you nuts while scoring timely goals, or the sheer fear that Shea Weber inspires when you consider entering the hard areas against him....I have a lot of respect for Jack Campbell, and a few guys like Kerfoot, Hyman or Mikheyev - guys that elevated their relative games imo - but the Leafs flagged far too often - as they have countless times over the past half decade.  Nylander bailing out for fear of getting hit, Sandin wilting under the pressure of the forecheck (not on him - he's a good young 20 yr old defenseman, but like Dermott and Gardiner in years past, he was dumped in way over his head).   We can go down the list - Thornton had the series skate by him, Marner was mortified by fear of another collapse, Matthews played some decent two way hockey, but has absolutely no 'next gear' - or at least has not been able to find one thus far in his career.  

 

But 23 year olds - are not responsible - are not to blame - for endless first round exits.   That is on a General Manager and management group - who simply don't appear able to identify their weak spots.  Every team has them.  You need to know your own.  The Leafs overcompensated in a very simplistic way - hoarding 'toughness' and 'veterans' - but the problem is that appeared to be the only weak spot they were able to identify (aside from bringing in Malhotra, who definitely addressed one of their others, as best he could, in one season).

 

It doesn't simply fall on the shoulders of 'stars' imo.   When you have guys like Thornton in the lineup - who can't keep the pace, or Sandin/Dermott who can't handle the heat - those cracks are as critical as alleged star underperformance.  Teams generate offense as teams - it's not in a vacuum - you have units of 5 on the ice at almost all times.  When one or two of those elements are vulnerabilities, it's impacts your top end players as well.

 

Matthews and Marner were not that bad.   Matthews actually played some excellent hockey off the puck - but with it on his stick, he found himself pressured - that's the thing about playoff hockey - the tempo is turned up, the opponent gets in your face, they hit you, they hound you - they take as much of your time and space away as possible - it's the difference between beating up on regular season opponents, and dealing with groups that become harder to play against.   And when you're spending more of your time, effort and energy supporting other players under pressure, defending, you are not necessarily going to run as rampant over your opponents.

 

Price Weber Petry Edmundson Chiarot.

 

Sorry - but anyone that underestimates that battery - that group from the net out - has probably not watched or understood much playoff hockey in their days.

 

If you expect to skate circles around a healthy Habs team - and score all the goals - you deserve the loser fate you suffer.  You disrespected and underestimated your opponent.  And when that realization starts to take root - when you've been outplayed by a group for 40, 60, 80, 100, 120  minutes - the bulk of a few consecutive critical, elimination games, the fear of facing your overconfidence sets in. 

 

If you watched Matthews and Marner closely as that series progressed - they could feel the haunt of the past, and the fate they were facing, and it further paralyzed them.  Some pop-psychology from their coach was not going to be enough.  Some 'mentorship' from a Jumbo was not going to change what was happening on the ice. 

 

They were facing a stiff, determined, confident opponent - that smelled blood - and smelled the opportunity to take advantage of the Leafs being the Leafs.

 

The Leafs are not cursed.   They are the classic lottery build that left themselves exposed in some key positions - again - and for all the talk of their depth, they simply lacked it.   They improved in a couple areas - but they left a couple equally important stones unturned.   Because of that, they were shocked, and unable to adjust - they kept hoping to draw on their bread and butter - but bread and butter is limited in playoff hockey - you have to make more by playing a complete game.  They had a chance - had chances - but no one should have 'expected' them to roll over the Habs.  That is ignorance imo - a healthy Habs team is nothing resembling a pushover.

 

The Habs are a storied franchise - with a 'foundation' to the way they build teams.  Criticize Bergevin for some missteps, but let's be real - that franchise plays Montreal Canadians hockey - and they should not be underestimated or written off with flippant ignorance - as was typically the case.

 

I thought the Habs would take that series - not because I 'hate' the Leafs, not because I underestimate the Leafs strengths - but because I did not believe the Leafs would be able to dictate that series to their strengths.  The were outskated - outhit - out"heavied" by a team with more intent, more heart, and a better all around two way game (as misleading as all the Leafs talent can be - the reality is that playing defensive hockey is a 'talent' - it's absolutely fundamental to the game - as is goaltending.  Half the game is played without the puck - to underestimate Carey Price, Shea Weber et al - is not "analytical" - it's ignorant.   That's what 'Leafs Nation' was in general - they underestimated their opponent - and they got what they deserved as a result = "shocked".

 

Who cares what some "pundits" say if they can't see the relative strengths and weaknesses of both franchises - and realize that "defense wins championships" is a truism for a reason (it's not the entire truth, but it sure as hell is more 'consistently' the truth than 'score all the goals' - if one is being 'analytical' and looking at large samples. 

 

Kudos to the Habs.  They are a sound team when they're relatively healthy - and they performed when it mattered.

Personally feel the Habs have more talent and depth.  Beyond the top 5 for leafs there isnt much.

[Kragar]

23 hours ago, aGENT said:

I'm also not convinced Matthews is a 'championship' player, as good as he is. So there's that too. I half wonder if they should just bite the bullet on that... He'd return a HELL of a hall if management came to the same conclusion...

 

[aGENT]

20 minutes ago, Kragar said:

 

Haha!

 

Nah, Matthews could do better than that. I'd wager there's a very good chance he's traded in his expiring year, as I doubt he's re-signing. Yet another brilliant Dubas move allowing him to dictate terms of his second deal to expire as a UFA...

[knucklehead91]

On 5/31/2021 at 7:47 PM, Patel Bure said:

With the Leafs loss to the Habs, guys like Sat Shah, Thomas Drance, JD Burke, 650 Sportsnet, and HF Canucks have received VERY huge blows

 

It wasn’t supposed to be this way.  
 

“We” were told by “the pundits” that the Leafs, under “Shanaplan” were rebuilding the correct way and that the Canucks way was absurd.

 

”We” were told by “the pundits” that the Leafs model was a model of excellence and that it would only be a matter of time before the Leafs took the torch from the Pens, Hawks, and Kings.

 

”We” were told by “the pundits” that the Leafs signing Tavares was a move that would place them closer to the cup, and that signing Tavares to an 11 million dollar cap hit wouldn’t have unforeseen negative circumstances......because the cap always goes up!  Just like real estate and the stock market!  “How is signing an elite franchise center a bad move, lol, omg” was the response.  Although a small portion of Canuck fans tried to warn “the pundits” that signing high ticket superstar  UFA’s to premium contracts BEFORE re-upping your RFA core to cap friendly bridge deals would discourage long term “buy in” (ie taking less money to serve the greater good), and instead, would foster a “he got paid and so I want to get paid too!” mindset, “the pundits” laughed and instead, pointed to the fact that the Canucks had terrible contracts of their own (Sutter, Eriksson, Baertschi, Ferland, Roussel, Beagle, etc.).   Were the pundits right?........yes, but only half right.   The other half of the equation, is that

 

1) Despite the “horridity” of these contracts, the highest paid player on our team is still 6 million dollars.....meaning that an internal cap and/or “buy in” (ie taking less money and term short term to “serve the greater good”) was still a possibility.

 

2) Almost all of our bad/transitional contracts that aided us through the rebuild, would be off the books before the start of the 22-23 season......which would be the exact time when our window of elitehood would begin, with our core players and supporting players at very good cap hits (Boeser still a cost controlled asset + Horvat/Miller/Schmidt/Demko all making less than 6 million + Podz/Hog on ELC’s, etc.).

 

“We” were laughed at by ”The pundits when they claimed that burning a year off of Hughes and Boeser’s ELC’s for such a small amount of games made absolutely no sense, because according to them, “all cup winning teams have their best players on ELC’s” (in actuality, Pittsburgh 2009 was really the last team to do this......all other cups winning teams since then had their top players on relatively cap friendly deals and/or low AAV% relative to the teams’ salary cap + a stronger investment in depth players).

 

”We” were told by “the pundits” that the Leafs actually had built their team correctly and that the only reason why they didn’t have Better results, was because they were playing in the toughest division in the league.   Safe to say that this wasn’t the case this year eh?
 

“We” were told by “the pundits” that the Canucks haven’t had a plan since 2014, and that we are now into year 7 of our rebuild.  “The pundits” neglected to mention that the Canucks made the playoffs during Benning’s first year (thanks to bringing in Ryan Miller, Vrbata, and Bonino), missed the playoffs for 4 seasons after that, and then made the 2nd round in 2020, and have now positioned themselves for a very BIG 2022-2023.    
 

It really does make you wonder though eh?  If the Canucks are supposedly into year 7 of their rebuild “without a plan,” then what does that make Toronto?  Year 17?   Because the aforementioned “pundits” can brag all they want about Toronto’s deep team, but they still haven’t won a round since 2004!   Meanwhile, teams like Edmonton, Calgary, and Vancouver have all made the 2nd round Atleast once.  
 

While Edmonton and Calgary have yet to build on their 2nd round appearances, the jury is still out on Vancouver.  Despite this however, the important point I want to illuminate here is that “the pundits” shouldn’t be celebrating the fact that the Canucks missed the playoffs this year, but rather, recognize the simple truth that progression is almost never  a linear thing.   How did Philadelphia and Dallas do this year by the way?    
 

Remember a few years back when Jason Botchford (RIP) and Trevor Linden praised “The Winnipeg model?”  Winnipeg also serves as proof that progression isn’t linear.  After making the 3rd round in 2018, they lost in the first round a year later and then technically missed the playoffs last season.  
 

So the main points I’m making is this:

 

1) Anyone who praised “Shanaplan” should take this time to apologize for the error of their ways (We forgive you).

 

2) Given all of the other elite teams in the league, and how their progression hasn’t always been linear, fans and pundits should realize that Benning’s rebuild since 2014 is on par with most of the other teams that had to rebuild.  While progression hasn’t always been linear, the moving average has trended upwards.  All rebuilding teams have to eat turds for approximately 6-9 years and the Canucks are of no exception.

 

Sincerely.

 

Patel Bure.

@Patel Bureyou should really stick to these posts and avoid proposals  

That was really well done

[Kragar]

47 minutes ago, aGENT said:

Haha!

 

Nah, Matthews could do better than that. I'd wager there's a very good chance he's traded in his expiring year, as I doubt he's re-signing. Yet another brilliant Dubas move allowing him to dictate terms of his second deal to expire as a UFA...

Agreed.  Not sure AM will do all that much better if/when he gets the chance to sign in AZ, but he'll be closer to home.  Worked well for JT 

 

He's got a full NMC in his final year, so if he is really pissed, he holds all the cards on where to go. 

 

Amazing that it was only a 5 yr contract. You gotta think he wants out.  Also, with some fairly heavy front-loading on the contract (which worked well for ownership, considering COVID), I wonder how that will play into his attitude.  He is taking a 30% pay cut next year, and 20% the year after that.  If he's a me-first, self-entitled brat, the next two years might not be his shiniest.

[Patel Bure]

2 hours ago, knucklehead91 said:

@Patel Bureyou should really stick to these posts and avoid proposals  

That was really well done

Lol fair enough.   
 

I think a large part of the confusion with my proposals stem from the fact that I often posts proposals because these proposals are often thoughts that are going through my head, but that I know is wrong........and so more times than not, I look for opposing responses from others in order to reaffirm my gut feeling of “why the proposal I suggested wouldn’t work or wouldn’t be practical.”  For example - any of my recent Buffalo Sabres proposals on that forum + my idea of using Rathbone and a 1st to trade for Hampus Lindholm (Lindholm would be signed long term before the trade took place to provide us with assurance).

 

Now having said that, there are times when I’m absolutely 100% on board with my proposals and post it with the intent of defending my stance.   For example, I am of the belief that the Canucks should try and do whatever it takes to move Eriksson’s contract this summer *without* having to move a first.

 

For example - if we need to use a 2nd + 3rd + middling prospect (Lockwood?) to get Eriksson off the books, I would bite the bullet and make the move.   Use that freed up money to bring in Wenneberg and/or David Savard.  
 

So that is often “my mindset” behind my proposals (which often gets misconstrued with me trolling), whereas on this forum, my posts are 100% related to how I feel.

[Hairy Kneel]

[Nuxfanabroad]

@Patel Bure Astute & alert OP, we appreciate this thread. As for the rousing title, gonna plead a lil' ignorance. I often get these media talkin' heads mixed up.

 

Would you kindly lay out/emphasize how these 3(in particular) verbally(or online?) trumpeted, and/or promoted the merits & virtues of this ill-fated, Hogtown, Jenga-tower? Would humbly suggest this might provide startling insights for one & all CDC'ers!

 

Hell, If anyone would like to contribute..just how deep was the love & praise for that ill-fated outfit? The incessant SNET daily headlines were enough to amuse, yet also turn stomachs across the nation. I'd love to see plain words that the likes of Drance & Shaw would prefer to stash in unexpected places.

[Alienhuggyflow]

On 5/31/2021 at 7:47 PM, Patel Bure said:

With the Leafs loss to the Habs, guys like Sat Shah, Thomas Drance, JD Burke, 650 Sportsnet, and HF Canucks have received VERY huge blows

 

It wasn’t supposed to be this way.  
 

“We” were told by “the pundits” that the Leafs, under “Shanaplan” were rebuilding the correct way and that the Canucks way was absurd.

 

”We” were told by “the pundits” that the Leafs model was a model of excellence and that it would only be a matter of time before the Leafs took the torch from the Pens, Hawks, and Kings.

 

”We” were told by “the pundits” that the Leafs signing Tavares was a move that would place them closer to the cup, and that signing Tavares to an 11 million dollar cap hit wouldn’t have unforeseen negative circumstances......because the cap always goes up!  Just like real estate and the stock market!  “How is signing an elite franchise center a bad move, lol, omg” was the response.  Although a small portion of Canuck fans tried to warn “the pundits” that signing high ticket superstar  UFA’s to premium contracts BEFORE re-upping your RFA core to cap friendly bridge deals would discourage long term “buy in” (ie taking less money to serve the greater good), and instead, would foster a “he got paid and so I want to get paid too!” mindset, “the pundits” laughed and instead, pointed to the fact that the Canucks had terrible contracts of their own (Sutter, Eriksson, Baertschi, Ferland, Roussel, Beagle, etc.).   Were the pundits right?........yes, but only half right.   The other half of the equation, is that

 

1) Despite the “horridity” of these contracts, the highest paid player on our team is still 6 million dollars.....meaning that an internal cap and/or “buy in” (ie taking less money and term short term to “serve the greater good”) was still a possibility.

 

2) Almost all of our bad/transitional contracts that aided us through the rebuild, would be off the books before the start of the 22-23 season......which would be the exact time when our window of elitehood would begin, with our core players and supporting players at very good cap hits (Boeser still a cost controlled asset + Horvat/Miller/Schmidt/Demko all making less than 6 million + Podz/Hog on ELC’s, etc.).

 

“We” were laughed at by ”The pundits when they claimed that burning a year off of Hughes and Boeser’s ELC’s for such a small amount of games made absolutely no sense, because according to them, “all cup winning teams have their best players on ELC’s” (in actuality, Pittsburgh 2009 was really the last team to do this......all other cups winning teams since then had their top players on relatively cap friendly deals and/or low AAV% relative to the teams’ salary cap + a stronger investment in depth players).

 

”We” were told by “the pundits” that the Leafs actually had built their team correctly and that the only reason why they didn’t have Better results, was because they were playing in the toughest division in the league.   Safe to say that this wasn’t the case this year eh?
 

“We” were told by “the pundits” that the Canucks haven’t had a plan since 2014, and that we are now into year 7 of our rebuild.  “The pundits” neglected to mention that the Canucks made the playoffs during Benning’s first year (thanks to bringing in Ryan Miller, Vrbata, and Bonino), missed the playoffs for 4 seasons after that, and then made the 2nd round in 2020, and have now positioned themselves for a very BIG 2022-2023.    
 

It really does make you wonder though eh?  If the Canucks are supposedly into year 7 of their rebuild “without a plan,” then what does that make Toronto?  Year 17?   Because the aforementioned “pundits” can brag all they want about Toronto’s deep team, but they still haven’t won a round since 2004!   Meanwhile, teams like Edmonton, Calgary, and Vancouver have all made the 2nd round Atleast once.  
 

While Edmonton and Calgary have yet to build on their 2nd round appearances, the jury is still out on Vancouver.  Despite this however, the important point I want to illuminate here is that “the pundits” shouldn’t be celebrating the fact that the Canucks missed the playoffs this year, but rather, recognize the simple truth that progression is almost never  a linear thing.   How did Philadelphia and Dallas do this year by the way?    
 

Remember a few years back when Jason Botchford (RIP) and Trevor Linden praised “The Winnipeg model?”  Winnipeg also serves as proof that progression isn’t linear.  After making the 3rd round in 2018, they lost in the first round a year later and then technically missed the playoffs last season.  
 

So the main points I’m making is this:

 

1) Anyone who praised “Shanaplan” should take this time to apologize for the error of their ways (We forgive you).

 

2) Given all of the other elite teams in the league, and how their progression hasn’t always been linear, fans and pundits should realize that Benning’s rebuild since 2014 is on par with most of the other teams that had to rebuild.  While progression hasn’t always been linear, the moving average has trended upwards.  All rebuilding teams have to eat turds for approximately 6-9 years and the Canucks are of no exception.

 

Sincerely.

 

Patel Bure.

Hell of a post. You must be one of the 10 normal HF Nuck posters, well 9 I'm currently banned lol. But seriously, most of us realize that the we in fact are not in year seven of a rebuild considering year one we were what a 104 point team? And that the team would never fully commit as long as the twins were still playing. Or how about the simple truth of it was never our vet contracts that forced TT out but a pandemic that stagnated the cap. Are highest-paid contract that is negative value is 6 million and is at worst done next season.

We have zero expansion worries and are one of maybe 3 teams that have legit #1s in all the critical areas and a 2c that looks to be the type that will carry a team in the post-season and a young core that unlike the laughs, and oilers actually bring it in the playoffs.

The leafs have 12 million in cap with 14 players signed and a bunch of B prospects.

People can say whatever they want about Benning but a simple search into the moves the leafs and oilers have made in trades and drafting compared to Benning are laughable. Odds are we end up lapping the leafs, oilers, sabres, devils, flames, jets, yotes, and more on the back of a rebuild that started when the twins retired without a top 4 pick while the rest of those teams except the coyotes and jets have had multiple top 3 picks and all were crap when we were a top  team for 5+ years. I mean jeez it's laughable how stupid some people in this market can be when you look at our core and the potential next summer to add big-ticket pieces while a team like the leafs will be unable to add anything but league min garbage or a team like the oilers will continue to waste Mcdrai and even with cap space they will lose key pieces and anyone they can convince to play there will be overlaid via ufa while we will, as usual, be a top destination.

You can book them offering Anderson 7+ to join Koskinen.

We took our lumps this season but the ones who have truly supported this team will have the last laugh and the pretend fans who actively cheer for us to lose or hope any move made backfires so they can point and puff their chest will look like idiots when threads are made showing their idiotic posts, much like the JT and petey threads. Like that one loser on HF who changed his name to jmillerforafirst and ended up looking like the tool he was.

[Sergei Shirokov]

Honestly, I don't think any of the Canadian teams had a solid long term plan. Winnipeg benefitted from years of Atlanta being a trash team, and then getting a few high picks near the start of their franchise, and slowly building up a half decent roster. Their roster, while sweeping another inept organization, is about to have their lunch handed to them by a washed up Montreal Canadiens teams, who will eventually get owned by Vegas or Colorado.  Toronto basically took the Edmonton route, were a crap team for a decade, got a first overall pick, tried to do a rush patch job (Taveras), and ended up with a choke job for the last 4 years. Nobody, even on this board, is envious of toronto. Having said all of this, you gotta give the Canucks credit. W/O a first overall pick, they landed the best player in the 2017 and 2018 drafts, probably 2019 as well (I'm rushing to judgement), and turned their 2015 pick into a top 10 pick. Sure, they struck out on Juolevi, and Virtanen. But at least they won a playoff series in the last decade (Sorry Toronto and Calgary, you are epic losers.)

 

[wai_lai416]

34 minutes ago, Sergei Shirokov said:

Honestly, I don't think any of the Canadian teams had a solid long term plan. Winnipeg benefitted from years of Atlanta being a trash team, and then getting a few high picks near the start of their franchise, and slowly building up a half decent roster. Their roster, while sweeping another inept organization, is about to have their lunch handed to them by a washed up Montreal Canadiens teams, who will eventually get owned by Vegas or Colorado.  Toronto basically took the Edmonton route, were a crap team for a decade, got a first overall pick, tried to do a rush patch job (Taveras), and ended up with a choke job for the last 4 years. Nobody, even on this board, is envious of toronto. Having said all of this, you gotta give the Canucks credit. W/O a first overall pick, they landed the best player in the 2017 and 2018 drafts, probably 2019 as well (I'm rushing to judgement), and turned their 2015 pick into a top 10 pick. Sure, they struck out on Juolevi, and Virtanen. But at least they won a playoff series in the last decade (Sorry Toronto and Calgary, you are epic losers.)

 

winnipeg benefitted on hitting on all their 1st round draft picks since coming back to winnipeg in the first 5 years and then lucked out on laine in the 6th and most are able to contribute almost right away and at a high level.. while vancouver only really hit on pettersson hughes and boeser.. all the 2014 1st rounder are wasted, 2015 is still a question mark 6 years later.. and podz will prolly be decent but he's not gonna be a difference maker and we didn't even have a 1st rounder last year. and i dunno about you laughing at calgary about not winning a playoff series last decade.. pretty sure they embarassed the canucks in the 1st round with ferland running the canucks out of the arena.. and no we don't have the best player in 2017 or 2018 draft lol.. cale makar i'm sure 31 out of the 32 teams would take over pettersson.. 2018 is a wash svechnikov is looking great in carolina, Dahlin who knows if he was on a different team. Brady thachuk is a beast in ottawa.. the jury is out for 2018 who's the best player.. we'll know in a few years if Hughes can gain some weight maybe and improve on his defense. no one is envious of Edm or Tor.. but i'm sure no one is envious of Vancouver either.. since JB took over vancouver have the 5th worse record for a team that never committed to a rebuild till couple seasons ago when sedins retired according to people. and never drafted higher than 7th overall during the rebuild and have less draft picks 1st and 2nd rounders than what they suppose to have.. not sure if that's what a *rebuild* looks like.

[ShawnAntoski]

On 5/31/2021 at 8:01 PM, Patel Bure said:

The funny thing about the Leafs is that they probably would have been better off avoiding Tavares altogether.   
 

Committing to depth players like JVR, Bozak, and Kadri, would not only have given the team more depth but also wouldn’t have blown the lid off the internal cap.  Guys like Nylander, Marner, Matthews, etc., would have been far more likely to take friendlier cap deals in order to “build a winner and serve the greater good” (a la LA, Chicago, Boston, etc.)

 

Cost controlled elite talent + depth = championships has been the model since 2010 Chicago.

Good point - that Tavares signing (probably) sent the message to there young core that market value is what they should go after; I guess, Dubas taught he can draft well enough to fill there roster ?   
 

[ShawnAntoski]

1 hour ago, Sergei Shirokov said:

Honestly, I don't think any of the Canadian teams had a solid long term plan. Winnipeg benefitted from years of Atlanta being a trash team, and then getting a few high picks near the start of their franchise, and slowly building up a half decent roster. Their roster, while sweeping another inept organization, is about to have their lunch handed to them by a washed up Montreal Canadiens teams, who will eventually get owned by Vegas or Colorado.  Toronto basically took the Edmonton route, were a crap team for a decade, got a first overall pick, tried to do a rush patch job (Taveras), and ended up with a choke job for the last 4 years. Nobody, even on this board, is envious of toronto. Having said all of this, you gotta give the Canucks credit. W/O a first overall pick, they landed the best player in the 2017 and 2018 drafts, probably 2019 as well (I'm rushing to judgement), and turned their 2015 pick into a top 10 pick. Sure, they struck out on Juolevi, and Virtanen. But at least they won a playoff series in the last decade (Sorry Toronto and Calgary, you are epic losers.)

 

Yeah, perhaps the one asset JB has gotten the Canucks is a goalie.   

[Patel Bure]

47 minutes ago, ShawnAntoski said:

Good point - that Tavares signing (probably) sent the message to there young core that market value is what they should go after; I guess, Dubas taught he can draft well enough to fill there roster ?   
 

My guess is that Dubas  banked on three things:

 

1) Good drafting to ensure that talented kids on ELC’s would fill out the bottom of the roster (as you said)

2) The cap would keep going up which would make the AAV% of Marner, Matthews, and Tavares more palpable down the road (similar to what happened over time with the Penguins and their contracts with Crosby, Malkin, Letang, and Kessel and how they won back to back cups in 16 and 17.

3) Old fart vets like Thornton and Spezza see Toronto as a realistic cup contender and would be willing to sign at minimum to play there to get “one last kick at the can.”

 

Dubas might have also been responding to the realities of a Canadian market, in that, paying a superstar 8 million AAV on a shorter term cap friendly deal is not realistic due to the tax rate being MUCH higher in Canada.  For example, earning 8 million in most American states is worth far more than earning 8 million in Canada.

Edited June 4, 2021 by Patel Bure

[Alienhuggyflow]

4 hours ago, ShawnAntoski said:

Good point - that Tavares signing (probably) sent the message to there young core that market value is what they should go after; I guess, Dubas taught he can draft well enough to fill there roster?   
 

Bang on. Not only did it establish their internal it also was a waste considering the team's needs. It also put an end to the rebuild when they had a bottom 5 prospect pool and set of a chain reaction of bad trades and terrible asset management. Trading Kadri for 1 year of Barrie, losing a 1st to get rid of PM, losing Connor Brown to get rid of Zaitsev and trading Kappanen because 2 years in a row they had negative cap space. Dubas is in so deep that for the 3rd straight summer negative moves need to be made just to ice, not even a full roster that contains 8-10 players on league minimum players and a goalie duo that will be perhaps the worst in the league. Meanwhile our fanbase complains about cap problems every summer yet somehow without trading assets to unload players, Benning replaced Tanev and Marky for Nate and Hamonic while adding Hoglander, Rathbone and Podz. Realistically without much work Benning can still add 11+ million in cap that can be used directly to improve the club and it gets even better next summer.

[ShawnAntoski]

7 hours ago, Patel Bure said:

My guess is that Dubas  banked on three things:

 

1) Good drafting to ensure that talented kids on ELC’s would fill out the bottom of the roster (as you said)

2) The cap would keep going up which would make the AAV% of Marner, Matthews, and Tavares more palpable down the road (similar to what happened over time with the Penguins and their contracts with Crosby, Malkin, Letang, and Kessel and how they won back to back cups in 16 and 17.

3) Old fart vets like Thornton and Spezza see Toronto as a realistic cup contender and would be willing to sign at minimum to play there to get “one last kick at the can.”

 

Dubas might have also been responding to the realities of a Canadian market, in that, paying a superstar 8 million AAV on a shorter term cap friendly deal is not realistic due to the tax rate being MUCH higher in Canada.  For example, earning 8 million in most American states is worth far more than earning 8 million in Canada.

Good points and it seems Dubas is trying hard to make a name for himself. 

 

At the very least, I do like his signings of ex first line players as mentoring type players to low cost & short term deals (700k per year) - that can actually mentor from real experience and are not just good at face offs. Also, despite the cap mismanagements with there four headed monsters (close to 50% of there cap), at least most of the cap is spent on core pieces & not bottom 6 mentoring type players.   As a Nucks fan, they are in good shape moving forward; just hoping JB continues to evolve and learn from past mistakes.

Edited June 4, 2021 by ShawnAntoski

[Sergei Shirokov]

14 hours ago, wai_lai416 said:

winnipeg benefitted on hitting on all their 1st round draft picks since coming back to winnipeg in the first 5 years and then lucked out on laine in the 6th and most are able to contribute almost right away and at a high level.. while vancouver only really hit on pettersson hughes and boeser.. all the 2014 1st rounder are wasted, 2015 is still a question mark 6 years later.. and podz will prolly be decent but he's not gonna be a difference maker and we didn't even have a 1st rounder last year. and i dunno about you laughing at calgary about not winning a playoff series last decade.. pretty sure they embarassed the canucks in the 1st round with ferland running the canucks out of the arena.. and no we don't have the best player in 2017 or 2018 draft lol.. cale makar i'm sure 31 out of the 32 teams would take over pettersson.. 2018 is a wash svechnikov is looking great in carolina, Dahlin who knows if he was on a different team. Brady thachuk is a beast in ottawa.. the jury is out for 2018 who's the best player.. we'll know in a few years if Hughes can gain some weight maybe and improve on his defense. no one is envious of Edm or Tor.. but i'm sure no one is envious of Vancouver either.. since JB took over vancouver have the 5th worse record for a team that never committed to a rebuild till couple seasons ago when sedins retired according to people. and never drafted higher than 7th overall during the rebuild and have less draft picks 1st and 2nd rounders than what they suppose to have.. not sure if that's what a *rebuild* looks like.

Cale Makar plays on a fully loaded Colorado Avalanche team, that plays all out offensive. Makar is going to get points no matter what. Petterson plays on a pretty weak canucks team, that plays more conservative.

 

Quinn Hughes was the best player in 2018. Again Svechnikov plays for a great Carolina team where he's surrounded by high quality talent and depth. one of the best teams in the league. 

 

We'll see on Podkolzin, but to me, he looks like a Horavt.

[EddieVedder]

1 hour ago, Sergei Shirokov said:

Cale Makar plays on a fully loaded Colorado Avalanche team, that plays all out offensive. Makar is going to get points no matter what. Petterson plays on a pretty weak canucks team, that plays more conservative.

 

Quinn Hughes was the best player in 2018. Again Svechnikov plays for a great Carolina team where he's surrounded by high quality talent and depth. one of the best teams in the league. 

 

We'll see on Podkolzin, but to me, he looks like a Horavt.

This makes no sense.  Makar is one of the biggest reasons why they can play "all out offense."  The Avs control the flow of the game because they have the horses to do so.  Vancouver isnt even close.  The opposing teams see Hughes on the ice and lick their chops because they know gaining entry and cycling in our end will be a piece of cake.   

[PistolPete13]

On 5/31/2021 at 8:46 PM, AV. said:

What a cringe thread lmfao.

Board members are instructed to believe everything that AV says because he’s always right and he never lies.

 

I hope this helps 

[AV.]

1 hour ago, PistolPete13 said:

Board members are instructed to believe everything that AV says because he’s always right and he never lies.

 

I hope this helps 

The first statement is true.

The second statement could use some work [remove the "i"]