Hirsch: "...the problem isn't on the bench, the problem is in the locker room..."

[Crabcakes]

22 minutes ago, -DLC- said:

So let me get this straight:  Corey slags others = ok

We slag Corey for doing so = not ok

 

I know he's had his struggles and is emotional...that doesn't make him free of criticism. And he played 4 years here so I'm not sold on him being the go to guy (as I've said) or the expert insider that he proclaims to be.  Sure, he has access to the team but who's to say that maybe someone didn't rub HIM the wrong way and he's biased?  That his personal opinion is tainting his observation.

 

He seems convinced it's NOT the coach/GM at issue here....but I'm not at this point.  We have to try something different than shuffling the line up.  They've had different personnel to work with and we're not improving under their watch. Even IF they have unruly players in the room...good coaches can manage that and it doesn't blow up the room.  Unless ego gets in the way of that and they're stuck on being right, not on correcting the problems.

 

Hirsch was afraid to step on toes because he didn't directly address who it was he was referring to.

 

And you're not doing a great job of convincing me....if the guy causing the problems in the room is based on his refusal to continue to listen to the coach's direction and to tune him out but he's now finding great success on the ice, who's really the problem?  

 

Coaches are not infallible and can get stuck and stubborn.  If guys who've had previous success with other teams suddenly struggle here and challenge what they're being told to do, it's not a matter of them being out of line.  They may be onto something.

 

I've been a huge Green supporter ... but he and his coaches are failing to right the ship.  And it all starts there, with them.  If their players are giving them problems, they have to find ways to fix that.  But I feel it's more a matter of Corey Hirsch needing to exercise the same patience that he was so graciously extended and let this team figure it out on their own.  Without his "help".

I can tell you're a bit of a Miller fan.  I think he's a bit of a prima donna and a showboat.  All the F-bombs and door slamming during games tells me it's more about him and less about the team.  He can be a great player in the right situation clearly but since the playoff success in the bubble the Canucks have lost most of their leadership group:  Marky, Tanev, Edler, Stecher, and Sutter.  It's not the same team any more.  

 

The whole situation is really frustrating.  I wasn't meaning to criticize you in particular or single you out.  I don't know what they need to do.  Firing the coach may shake things up and it may work out.  I still don't think they have the depth.  The players still have to play.  No coach can get out there and do it for them.  So in that respect Hirsch is right.  Turing over half the team in 1 year doesn't help with team identity either.  I guess it's really a combination of GM, Coach and players.  

[Jester13]

Take this with many grains of salt, but a Reddit rumour is saying that Petey isn't terribly liked in the dressing room. I know, I know, but please don't flame me for this, as it's Reddit and I didn't write it. We're all just speculating here along with CH.

[Vinny in Vancouver]

1 minute ago, DeNiro said:

He’s guessing based on Miller’s personality.

 

For all we know it could be Horvat or even Pettersson. Both of their demeanours look like players who are frustrated and not really dialed in.

Pettersson was a much more confident and fiery player until this season. If you look at his complete indifference to Green on the bench as he was yelling at him I wouldn’t be shocked if he was tuning him out.

 

As others have pointed out, Pettersson's not an alpha dog (same as Hughes). Miller keeps getting regular minutes and is probably producing so not him. Ditto, Horvat. Who are other potential alpha dogs? Boeser, Garland, OEL, Dickinson, Podkolzin.

[Bure_of_94]

Just now, Jester13 said:

Take this with many grains of salt, but a Reddit rumour is saying that Petey isn't terribly liked in the dressing room. I know, I know, but please don't flame me for this, as it's Reddit and I didn't write it. We're all just speculating here along with CH.

I’ve seen this all over twitter today too.

[Crabcakes]

10 minutes ago, DeNiro said:

He’s guessing based on Miller’s personality.

 

For all we know it could be Horvat or even Pettersson. Both of their demeanours look like players who are frustrated and not really dialed in.

Pettersson was a much more confident and fiery player until this season. If you look at his complete indifference to Green on the bench as he was yelling at him I wouldn’t be shocked if he was tuning him out.

 

Miller has all the leverage because he's the leading scorer.  Benning would lose a lot of cred if he moved him.  Also, Green would lose cred if he cut his ice time.  He also loses cred if he admits to his GM that he is having a hard time with a player and may be losing the room

[Kootenay Gold]

34 minutes ago, Patel Bure said:

Although things are becoming toxic right now, it's nowhere near the level of that 97-98 Messier-Linden-Keenan season.  

Bill Laforge also comes to mind. Think he was fired after 20 or so games.

 

[bishopshodan]

11 minutes ago, Jester13 said:

Take this with many grains of salt, but a Reddit rumour is saying that Petey isn't terribly liked in the dressing room. I know, I know, but please don't flame me for this, as it's Reddit and I didn't write it. We're all just speculating here along with CH.

I really like EP but this is more believable than Miller IMO.

 

Miller is leading this team and producing, while Petey is struggling to find his game.

 

EP seems to have a tough personality to me, he has that death stare confidence. I could see him shutting down and not being responsive while he figures out his demons.

 

He's a star though and expect him to get it sorted out. 

[DeNiro]

16 minutes ago, Vinny in Vancouver said:

As others have pointed out, Pettersson's not an alpha dog (same as Hughes). Miller keeps getting regular minutes and is probably producing so not him. Ditto, Horvat. Who are other potential alpha dogs? Boeser, Garland, OEL, Dickinson, Podkolzin.

You’re assuming that based on how he acts with the media. There’s lots of alpha dog athletes who are not loud about it.

 

McDavid is an alpha dog player that isn’t loud but has an arrogance based on his abilities.

 

We also don’t know how Pettersson acts when the cameras arent running. How he interacts with his teammates and even the coaches could be different than what we see. Players who see themselves as the best on the team sometimes think they’re above the coaches because they can’t be replaced.

 

Not saying I believe it’s Pettersson I’m just saying an “alpha dog” player doesn’t necessarily have to have a personality like Miller’s. And I definitely wouldn’t rule out a player just cause they’re getting minutes. If someone Horvat is not happy with his line mates, the role he’s being put in or the the coaches systems he could definitely be somebody who’s frustrated. He has been here 7 years now with limited success. He might be starting to become apathetic to this organization.

 

Edited November 14, 2021 by DeNiro

[Odd.]

54 minutes ago, -DLC- said:

So let me get this straight:  Corey slags others = ok

We slag Corey for doing so = not ok

 

I know he's had his struggles and is emotional...that doesn't make him free of criticism. And he played 4 years here so I'm not sold on him being the go to guy (as I've said) or the expert insider that he proclaims to be.  Sure, he has access to the team but who's to say that maybe someone didn't rub HIM the wrong way and he's biased?  That his personal opinion is tainting his observation.

 

He seems convinced it's NOT the coach/GM at issue here....but I'm not at this point.  We have to try something different than shuffling the line up.  They've had different personnel to work with and we're not improving under their watch. Even IF they have unruly players in the room...good coaches can manage that and it doesn't blow up the room.  Unless ego gets in the way of that and they're stuck on being right, not on correcting the problems.

 

Hirsch was afraid to step on toes because he didn't directly address who it was he was referring to.

 

And you're not doing a great job of convincing me....if the guy causing the problems in the room is based on his refusal to continue to listen to the coach's direction and to tune him out but he's now finding great success on the ice, who's really the problem?  

 

Coaches are not infallible and can get stuck and stubborn.  If guys who've had previous success with other teams suddenly struggle here and challenge what they're being told to do, it's not a matter of them being out of line.  They may be onto something.

 

I've been a huge Green supporter ... but he and his coaches are failing to right the ship.  And it all starts there, with them.  If their players are giving them problems, they have to find ways to fix that.  But I feel it's more a matter of Corey Hirsch needing to exercise the same patience that he was so graciously extended and let this team figure it out on their own.  Without his "help".

Again, you would think someone who advocates for mental health for players would know saying something like that on the record creates much more of negative dynamic on the team, especially when you generalize it the way he did without specifying exactly who he’s referring too. 
 

I’m a huge JT Miller fan. I’ve wanted a player like him since Kesler left, and quite frankly, Miller is a much better player than Kesler minus 2011 Kesler. 
 

Undortunately, I doubt he’s going to stick around much longer, and will likely ask for a trade if we don’t correct ship. And it’s a shame. 

[Vinny in Vancouver]

3 minutes ago, DeNiro said:

You’re assuming that based on how he acts with the media. There’s lots of alpha dog athletes who are not loud about it.

 

McDavid is an alpha dog player that isn’t loud but has an arrogance based on his abilities.

 

I actually don't base it on the media or loudness but on how they play on the ice and how they interact on the bench. It's the bossiness. We can agree to disagree here, but the alpha dog is obvious in all sports.

[48MPHSlapShot]

25 minutes ago, Jester13 said:

Take this with many grains of salt, but a Reddit rumour is saying that Petey isn't terribly liked in the dressing room. I know, I know, but please don't flame me for this, as it's Reddit and I didn't write it. We're all just speculating here along with CH.

Honestly, it wouldn't shock me. He always seems down in the dumps. He has a perpetual "sad face" and really gives off the vibe of not wanting to be here. The fact that he didn't want to sign long-term brings some legitimacy to that theory imo.

[iinatcc]

People slamming Hirsch here need to realize that maybe these media people know a bit more of what's going on than what we do here.

 

I'm sorry to say and I apologize if I am coming off rude. But most of us here have been in a state of denial when it comes to this team. We put ourselves in the bubble thinking Benning has made all these great moves while denying the mistakes he's made while bashing the media anytime they are critical of the team. 

 

To be honest I think some of us here need a reality check of what this team and organization really is

 

[Baggins]

41 minutes ago, -DLC- said:

Actually I can.  Because he hadn't mastered a winning formula so his observations may not be the winning formula for this team either. 

1 - Hirsch spent 7 years in NHL locker rooms. I'd say he knows more about the inner dealings of an NHL team than anybody on this board can dream of.

2 - The best NHL coaches tend not to have had high end NHL careers. Typically the reason they became great coaches is they needed to be sponges and pay attention to the details and work harder just to achieve to the NHL. 

 

Having a great, or successful, career doesn't mean the person isn't knowledgeable. If anything it's the opposite. The ones with natural god given talent could succeed on talent alone without the same need to be students of the game and absord all the details and finer points of the game.

 

It wouldn't surprise me if there wasn't a problem within the locker room with the massive turnover that's happened. But I also think there's a systems problem here as well. The PP has been too stationary and the PK has been too passive. Then I also look how easy it is for teams to get clean zone entries on us versus how often we have to dump the puck in because a clean entry just isn't there. To me these are systems problems. Systems need to be designed for the team make up.

 

I do think a coaching change is needed at this point despite having said previously to give them at least 20 games to gel. But I also think a trade for a high end right side defender may be needed as well to solidify the top four. That won't be popular because it will likely mean moving a large forward cap hit, like Boeser (just an example), to make it happen.

[DeNiro]

5 minutes ago, Vinny in Vancouver said:

I actually don't base it on the media or loudness but on how they play on the ice and how they interact on the bench. It's the bossiness. We can agree to disagree here, but the alpha dog is obvious in all sports.

And my point was Peteys first couple seasons he played with that fire and swagger. He’s lost it the last couple seasons.

 

Even alpha dogs get mopey and tune out when they’re not happy with their situation.

 

Ever since Markstrom left it seems like Pettersson just doesn’t have his head in games anymore.

 

[King Heffy]

33 minutes ago, Jester13 said:

Take this with many grains of salt, but a Reddit rumour is saying that Petey isn't terribly liked in the dressing room. I know, I know, but please don't flame me for this, as it's Reddit and I didn't write it. We're all just speculating here along with CH.

Hard to be liked when you hold out for more money while your teammates are working hard in camp, and then play terribly when you finally show up.

[King Heffy]

21 minutes ago, DeNiro said:

McDavid is an alpha dog player that isn’t loud but has an arrogance based on his abilities.

McDiver isn't exactly quiet when he's throwing tantrums when the refs don't fall for his flopping.

[sonoman]

3 minutes ago, King Heffy said:

Hard to be liked when you hold out for more money while your teammates are working hard in camp, and then play terribly when you finally show up.

He absolutely should have been riding the pine after that giveaway in Colorado. 

[DeNiro]

2 minutes ago, King Heffy said:

Hard to be liked when you hold out for more money while your teammates are working hard in camp, and then play terribly when you finally show up.

Yea I don’t really buy the not being liked part. I’ve seen him interact with enough guys to see they like him.

 

I wouldn’t be surprised if his teammates are frustrated with him though. They need him to be a whole lot better for them to have success. You wanna be the highest paid forward you better play like it.

[King Heffy]

Just now, DeNiro said:

Yea I don’t really buy the not being liked part. I’ve seen him interact with enough guys to see they like him.

 

I wouldn’t be surprised if his teammates are frustrated with him though. They need him to be a whole lot better for them to have success. You wanna be the highest paid forward you better play like it.

Yeah, that's really more what I meant.  A lot of the issues will go away if he starts playing like he can.

[EddieVedder]

1 hour ago, Vinny in Vancouver said:

As others have pointed out, Pettersson's not an alpha dog (same as Hughes). Miller keeps getting regular minutes and is probably producing so not him. Ditto, Horvat. Who are other potential alpha dogs? Boeser, Garland, OEL, Dickinson, Podkolzin.

Oel, miller, bo are the only current alpha dogs really.  Podz and maybe hogz in future.