For those who say it's been 8 years of Benning...

[Provost]

47 minutes ago, Josepho said:

You do not have to pay significantly (in term or AAV) for players to fill up your roster. There are so many counterexamples to this.

 

Also, why would rebuilding with the Sedins have been pointless? Detroit did it with Zetterberg, the Rangers did it with Lundqvist, the Ducks did it with Getzlaf. What's pointless is trading assets and picks for losers like Gudbranson.

Yep, no need to trade future assets from a “re-tooling”/rebuilding team.

 

With the league getting younger so fast there were always really solid veterans available for low money and term who got shuffled out of their previous teams.  It was a really interesting market during this entire time where the exact type of players we needed were severely undervalued in the league.  A series of veteran guys on 1-2 year contracts for minimum- $2 million salaries who could also be used as deadline trade chips if we were out of the playoff picture would have put us in a much better position.
 

Guys like Vanek, Vrbata, Schaller, etc.  those guys could provide veteran leadership and fill gaps in the roster while kids were getting ready.   We could have gone al in on that strategy.  We didn’t need to also trade a bunch of 2nd and 3rd round picks for guys not much better than waiver wire fodder.

 

Now we are a capped out team for the foreseeable future with most of our efficient contracts expiring in the coming couple of seasons.  

We have one of the worst prospect pipelines in the league even after being a basement dweller for many years.  At least Gillis had the excuse of being a contender to mortgage futures for short term success.

 

 

Edited November 15, 2021 by Provost

[kanucks25]

7 hours ago, shiznak said:

There was no point in starting a rebuild with the Sedins in our lineup. They were going to play out their careers in Vancouver. So the team had no choice but to try and compete with them on our team, despite their skills declining.

 

7 hours ago, shiznak said:

Not only that, but no team was willing to take on 14M in cap space for two aging players. 
 

So, Trevor was right that the correct time was to rebuild after they had retire. 

 

6 hours ago, shiznak said:

They did built around them.
 

Doofus was a free asset that only cost us cap. No one knew he was going to be that bad, coming off a 30 goal year. Gudbranson was also coming off a stellar playoff, and was 24yrs old. He would  probably be apart of this core, if he played like he did in Florida.

Dorsett was traded for a 3rd rounder that never amounted to anything. Vey was a 22yrs old  rookie who did extremely well in the minors. Bärtschi was also looked promising, until he got concussion issues that derailed his career. 
 

Like I said, rebuilding with the Sedins would have been pointless. It’s like how Detroit tried to rebuild with Zetterberg.

This is all garbage lol

[NewbieCanuckFan]

4 minutes ago, IBatch said:

He made some good points.   It's not nearly as quick as it used it be,  drafting at the very least needs to be above average.    MG drafted Horvat and Hutton for JB to work with, and the last three years of Nonis drafting wasn't good either.   That's 9 freaking years without much of anything coming up the pipe.    I'm actually pleasantly surprised this much was managed.    No it's not enough.   Anyone thinking it would be enough is also not much of a realist when it comes to hockey under the cap. No buying yourself out of problems anymore.      JB vs Bergevin.   I'd keep JB.    Both long tenured GMs at this point.    Holland and all his superpowers wasn't enough to do it in Detroit.   They are on their second rebuild .... i expect we might soon be back to looking forward to the draft more then anything without some sort of miracle.   

Bergevin just had his team reach the Cup Finals this past season.  That normally buys you more time then a few playoff round wins season two seasons ago.  Granted in Montreal that isn’t enough.

[wallstreetamigo]

3 minutes ago, IBatch said:

He made some good points.   It's not nearly as quick as it used it be,  drafting at the very least needs to be above average.    MG drafted Horvat and Hutton for JB to work with, and the last three years of Nonis drafting wasn't good either.   That's 9 freaking years without much of anything coming up the pipe.    I'm actually pleasantly surprised this much was managed.    No it's not enough.   Anyone thinking it would be enough is also not much of a realist when it comes to hockey under the cap. No buying yourself out of problems anymore.      JB vs Bergevin.   I'd keep JB.    Both long tenured GMs at this point.    Holland and all his superpowers wasn't enough to do it in Detroit.   They are on their second rebuild .... i expect we might soon be back to looking forward to the draft more then anything without some sort of miracle.   

Holland at least had a lot of success though. A GM mortgaging the future for the present who actually has success in the present (Holland, Gillis, etc) is very different than Benning who has mortgaged the future and had no success in the present.

 

Benning needs to go for this team to have any chance of a cup window with this core. 

[kanucks25]

7 hours ago, dougieL said:

I have heard (not necessarily here) people say that we haven't rebuilt properly or that it's been 8 years of mediocrity under the Benning regime.

 

People are forgetting that for the 2014-15 to 2017-18 seasons, Linden said publicly that it would be unfair to the Sedins to rebuild (the articles can be easily found on Google). In these seasons, we signed Erickson, traded for Gudbranson, traded picks for players, and traded for and re-signed Sutter, among other moves.

 

Only AFTER the Sedins retired did Linden start pushing the proper rebuild. First off, the hypocrisy of this pivot is stunning and not acknowledged enough. Him quitting over the owners not buying into this vision is ludicrous considering his refusal to rebuild while the Sedins were clearly done (combined 14m cap hit, neither exceeded 60pts in any of the last 3 seasons of their career).

 

Second, it is difficult to imagine that the Canucks fan base would have the patience for a full rebuild that would start in the 2018-19 season. If a proper rebuild takes 5 years, this season AND next season might still well be a lottery seasons. We would essentially lose the primes of Demko, Horvat, and part of Boeser's, if they even remained with us through this hypothetical rebuild. 

 

With the drafting of Hughes and the anticipation of Pettersson becoming a quality player, along with the pain of the previous 3 seasons, I could see why the owners wanted Benning to accelerate the process.

 

So no, the rebuild was not done properly, but it is not all on Benning. Sure, Benning has made some questionable moves, but which GM hasn't? The owners, along with Linden, have to bear the brunt of the blame for the overall lack of direction.

 

 

Give it up with all this garbage and demand some accountability for once.

 

What a butter soft market lol

[Provost]

Amusingly… this is a memory from my Facebook status on this day in 2016.

 

“I suspect Willie Desjardins will be out of a job in the next 24hrs.
... it won't help.”

 

 

[IBatch]

42 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

This was discussed ad naueseum.

 

What team would take two contracts worth that much for what they would have been requesting?  There is/was zero chance of splitting them up and they are/were a package deal that was almost $15 million or something on the cap.

 

At that time there was 5 teams in the league that would have taken them but their production was already in the tank and they were slow as hell.

The only chance we had at every moving the Sedins simply vanished once they were re-signed.   My brother said it was a mistake at the time and he was right as far as not just excepting we needed a tank badly.   
 

Post Sedin 2 plus 15ish games.   That's it.   Anyone thinking we'd end up a great team after 5 years is just not following hockey these days much.    Re-tool only worked (and wish it didn't at all) because we signed Miller and the second best winger - and yes we did go after Iginla too, in Vrbata.   Got us a few games against CAL (and got beat up by Ferland lol), finished 7th overall blah blah blah.   

 

I actually agree with the OP to an extent.  It's ridiculous to say "it's been 8 long years"  ... when two of them we made the post season, and unless we found a GM and Owner willing to rip clauses up ....  The Sedins could of asked to go to a contender but didn't.   Bieksa did.   Edler didn't.   He waited and then took the best deal available in LA, not a contender.   Kesler did too - and look at the way fans treated him.   Hansen and Burrows also eventually waived too.   Those guys that did showed character IMO.   Team was screwed - so absolutely screwed. 

 

Said back then and will re-iterate.   For 14 years the Canucks won more games then anyone but Detroit.  SJ was very close too.  SJ re-tool worked.  Ours didn't.   Detroit is now on their second rebuild lol.   And also said it would at best be parts of this core, and the following one that would make it back into contention.   This idea that five years is enough isn't accurate.   It's not at all common for top teams.   Funny thing is maybe it could have been for us as we only traded one first under MG.   Nothing ... worst pool in the league, and a massive tweener gap (which JB tried to fill with Vey and Bear ... Bear actually worked even with his concussions).  

 

Expectations are just that.   But come on CDC be realistic too.   CAR missed 9 in a row after their cup winning core dissolved.   EDM lol... enough said.   Buffalo too.   And we were actually a much better team as far as winning percentage goes.   Detroit and SJ are our peers in this range - from 2000-2014.     

 

No i'm not happy right now either.   It's been too many years of losing.   And i'm absolutely ok with a complete firing phase soon.  But i'm not naive either.   Two playoffs during that time is more then others, including teams not as good as we were going through the same thing.    2030.    19 long years ... would be the average gap between finals now with the league the way it is.   Most complaints should be sent to Bettman.   That's the correct target.   At least expansion and actual talent is starting to match what it used to be like. 

[IBatch]

17 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said:

Holland at least had a lot of success though. A GM mortgaging the future for the present who actually has success in the present (Holland, Gillis, etc) is very different than Benning who has mortgaged the future and had no success in the present.

 

Benning needs to go for this team to have any chance of a cup window with this core. 

Absolutely.   Guys a legend and still working.    MG could be too if we just won game 7.   Being a Canuck fan is painful.   A lot of pain.    I didn't even really like the WCE team that much.  The Linden team (and uniforms) to me at least, was so much better and a lot funner to watch.    That said for all the Keenan hate, those bad teams in the Messier era at least could match anyone in the alley.   Some of the WCE teams too.   Sedin teams ... my favourite players were Burrows, Kesler and Bieksa.  This one?  Doesn't hold a candle to any of them yet.   Hockey is changing and at least JB realizes guys like BB, EP and QHs can excel in it.   Ugh i don't know what else to say.   It's unfortunate, but it appears that this team is flawed and won't go places.   Was really hoping this core would make it work ... but the actual odds were always stacked heavily against it.     They truly were.   A re-set of the rebuild is probably the best course of action at this point. 

[joe-max]

 

3 hours ago, Patel Bure said:

 those were the guys that held the fart down while we transitioned. 

Sorry, I had to.

 

I agree with your statement though. That summer was a bummer. While at that time I understood why he made the moves, looking back they weakended the team and the spirit.

 

 

[lmm]

8 hours ago, ShawnAntoski said:

I agree, on the last paragraph: that ultimately, Aquaman has only himself to blame and spending to the cap every year doesn't absolved him from the current disaster cause it is him who chose this leadership group and JB is only doing what he is allowed to do.  

if you did a poll, I wonder how many GMs in the league, ( or not in the league) would sign on for that plan?

Note that Joe Thornton is no longer in San Jose and Corry Perry isn't in Anahiem

Didn't they deserve another run with those clubs?

Kind of ironic that management types talk about putting players in a position to succeed, and yet...

[Provost]

For those of you who are saying it has been 8 years of Benning… you are absolutely right.  As far as we know (so far)  the space time continuum only works in one linear direction here on Earth.

This is his 8th season and 8th offseason as GM of the team.  Not sure how objective reality is so controversial.

 

 

 

Edited November 15, 2021 by Provost

[appleboy]

8 hours ago, dougieL said:

I have heard (not necessarily here) people say that we haven't rebuilt properly or that it's been 8 years of mediocrity under the Benning regime.

 

People are forgetting that for the 2014-15 to 2017-18 seasons, Linden said publicly that it would be unfair to the Sedins to rebuild (the articles can be easily found on Google). In these seasons, we signed Erickson, traded for Gudbranson, traded picks for players, and traded for and re-signed Sutter, among other moves.

 

Only AFTER the Sedins retired did Linden start pushing the proper rebuild. First off, the hypocrisy of this pivot is stunning and not acknowledged enough. Him quitting over the owners not buying into this vision is ludicrous considering his refusal to rebuild while the Sedins were clearly done (combined 14m cap hit, neither exceeded 60pts in any of the last 3 seasons of their career).

 

Second, it is difficult to imagine that the Canucks fan base would have the patience for a full rebuild that would start in the 2018-19 season. If a proper rebuild takes 5 years, this season AND next season might still well be a lottery seasons. We would essentially lose the primes of Demko, Horvat, and part of Boeser's, if they even remained with us through this hypothetical rebuild. 

 

With the drafting of Hughes and the anticipation of Pettersson becoming a quality player, along with the pain of the previous 3 seasons, I could see why the owners wanted Benning to accelerate the process.

 

So no, the rebuild was not done properly, but it is not all on Benning. Sure, Benning has made some questionable moves, but which GM hasn't? The owners, along with Linden, have to bear the brunt of the blame for the overall lack of direction.

 

 

Jim was the one who clearly stated that this team could be turned around quickly. He was 100% against doing a proper rebuild.  Plus, every decision he has made mirrored that attitude.

That is all water under the bridge. What we see is what we get. 

 

The lack of vision from the owners is the problem.

[Westcoasting]

8 hours ago, ShawnAntoski said:

Yeah, trading the Sedins' would had caused a riot in this city; and Trevor did it to save the city.

Trevor did it because he was told to do it.

[DSVII]

9 hours ago, dougieL said:

I have heard (not necessarily here) people say that we haven't rebuilt properly or that it's been 8 years of mediocrity under the Benning regime.

 

People are forgetting that for the 2014-15 to 2017-18 seasons, Linden said publicly that it would be unfair to the Sedins to rebuild (the articles can be easily found on Google). In these seasons, we signed Erickson, traded for Gudbranson, traded picks for players, and traded for and re-signed Sutter, among other moves.

 

Only AFTER the Sedins retired did Linden start pushing the proper rebuild. First off, the hypocrisy of this pivot is stunning and not acknowledged enough. Him quitting over the owners not buying into this vision is ludicrous considering his refusal to rebuild while the Sedins were clearly done (combined 14m cap hit, neither exceeded 60pts in any of the last 3 seasons of their career).

Not directed at you OP, but I'll see this hypocrisy and raise you the double standard where people claim what the Leafs and Oilers did was perpetual decade long rebuilds to justify why Benning needs 8 years, when they too tried to honestly make playoffs with their rosters (Leafs for instance, began their latest rebuild iteration in 2014).

 

Suddenly when we talk about the Canucks today, no, we weren't rebuilding this whole time...

 

As for the timeline, Linden admitted the rebuild in April of 2017. Sedins retired April 2018. Linden was fired in July 2018 after conversing with teams around the league (specifically Winnipeg) on how they did a slow bake, patient rebuild. He was canned after. 

 

Not saying Linden was lying when he said it would be unfair for the Sedins, but he was still a rookie president, and relied on marching orders from Aqua. It wasn't until he started deviating from those marching orders that he was let go.

 

Toews and Kane combined for $20+ mil in cap. Doughty/Quick/Brown account for ~$20 mil as well. Both teams have accumulated more picks and prospects than us in the last 3 years vs our 8 years. Because they accumulated their picks and developed their prospects rather than traded them for poor pro-scouted projects.

 

Quote

Second, it is difficult to imagine that the Canucks fan base would have the patience for a full rebuild that would start in the 2018-19 season. If a proper rebuild takes 5 years, this season AND next season might still well be a lottery seasons. We would essentially lose the primes of Demko, Horvat, and part of Boeser's, if they even remained with us through this hypothetical rebuild. 

 

With the drafting of Hughes and the anticipation of Pettersson becoming a quality player, along with the pain of the previous 3 seasons, I could see why the owners wanted Benning to accelerate the process.

 

The secondary market for Canucks Tix didn't really collapse until this year. We've had bottom 10 rebuilding finishes 6 of the last 8 years. You saw how excited fans were to just have Petey and Hughes on the roster. This market could have handled the rebuild.

 

The narrative that this market couldn't is being pushed by the media. 

 

We are already on pace to lose the primes of Horvat, Demko and Boeser. Just as Benning squandered Markstrom and Tanev's prime.

 

Quote

So no, the rebuild was not done properly, but it is not all on Benning. Sure, Benning has made some questionable moves, but which GM hasn't? The owners, along with Linden, have to bear the brunt of the blame for the overall lack of direction.

it is 100% on both Benning/Aqua. The Sedins are doing what they do best, being leaders and taking the brunt of the responsibility and accountability of the organization because they know they are the face of the franchise. Whether they are responsible or not. They've shown more leadership than the people who were supposed to be stewards to the team in management positions.

 

For the record, I still think a retool could have worked, but Benning simply targeted the wrong players and either didn't move from players quick enough to get something back (Vrbata/Hamhuis) or simply didn't have the patience to watch them develop (Forsling/McCann/Madden)

LA is rebuilding with Quick, Doughty, Kopitar still on their books.

 

Chicago is also doing so with an even more expensive Toews and Kane. Not to mention the character issues of these clowns.

 

Are we seriously implying that the Sedins are selfish enough to not do what is best for the team and demanded that management not rebuild? The Sedins came out and said they were comfortable with a rebuild, I have no doubt had management thought about doing it earlier, they would have been on board if it meant a quick reset in 3-4 years. They still stuck with the team despite having the same pains as a rebuild.

Edited November 15, 2021 by DSVII

[RU SERIOUS]

8 hours ago, dougieL said:

I have heard (not necessarily here) people say that we haven't rebuilt properly or that it's been 8 years of mediocrity under the Benning regime.

 

People are forgetting that for the 2014-15 to 2017-18 seasons, Linden said publicly that it would be unfair to the Sedins to rebuild (the articles can be easily found on Google). In these seasons, we signed Erickson, traded for Gudbranson, traded picks for players, and traded for and re-signed Sutter, among other moves.

 

Only AFTER the Sedins retired did Linden start pushing the proper rebuild. First off, the hypocrisy of this pivot is stunning and not acknowledged enough. Him quitting over the owners not buying into this vision is ludicrous considering his refusal to rebuild while the Sedins were clearly done (combined 14m cap hit, neither exceeded 60pts in any of the last 3 seasons of their career).

 

Second, it is difficult to imagine that the Canucks fan base would have the patience for a full rebuild that would start in the 2018-19 season. If a proper rebuild takes 5 years, this season AND next season might still well be a lottery seasons. We would essentially lose the primes of Demko, Horvat, and part of Boeser's, if they even remained with us through this hypothetical rebuild. 

 

With the drafting of Hughes and the anticipation of Pettersson becoming a quality player, along with the pain of the previous 3 seasons, I could see why the owners wanted Benning to accelerate the process.

 

So no, the rebuild was not done properly, but it is not all on Benning. Sure, Benning has made some questionable moves, but which GM hasn't? The owners, along with Linden, have to bear the brunt of the blame for the overall lack of direction.

 

 

This sounds like KGB Propoganda !    

 

[JesseBlue]

I heard it was still Mike Gillis' fault.

 

Seriously, i don't care if the cupboard is bare as long as the team wins the cup.

[appleboy]

4 minutes ago, Westcoasting said:

Trevor did it because he was told to do it.

The owners are the real problem.

 

They are the ones who decided to go for a quick turn around. They are the ones who set the direction of this team. They didn't want to see a ten year rebuild and that is what it would have taken to blow things up. That type of a rebuild would have not only built the talent level at the NHL level but would have finally got the farm system to where it should be.

Well they are going to get their ten years and more. And they now are at a point where if this team does not succeed over the next two years we will be back into a rebuild AGAIN. They have set things up for a twenty year retool.

[kanucks25]

The notion that this market is too impatient to handle a proper rebuild is absolutely one of the most idiotic things you'll ever hear in relation to the Vancouver Canucks.

 

What a spineless and ignorant excuse.

Edited November 15, 2021 by kanucks25

[ShawnAntoski]

8 hours ago, shiznak said:

Not only that, but no team was willing to take on 14M in cap space for two aging players. 
 

So, Trevor was right that the correct time was to rebuild after they had retire. 

Good point: Trevor really had no choice but to wait out the Sedins to retirement.   Interesting, how the spinsters/media schills spun it as the Sedins last run.

[J.I.A.H.N]

So, we wonder why we are in such a mess

 

When other teams are trading away aging stars, we are letting them walk away

 

Hank Sedin

Daniel Sedin

Chris Tanev

Alex Edler

Jacob Markstrom

 

All these players were developed, by the Canucks and all walked away, with absolutely no asset recovery.

 

Ask your self why? Ask yourself, what asset would have come back

 

Then ask yourself, why you do not understand, why we are having so much trouble rebuilding

 

This is where the problem lies

 

Each, would have brought back multiple assets.............

 

The trouble was, and is, that NTC were given, and players were given god like status, even though they had never won anything.

 

IMO, 3 of the 5 would have brought back blue chip prospects and 1st's, the other 1st's at the very least..........

 

That is equivalent to an additional 8 -1st round picks, plus our own picks would have been much higher, because we would have fallen further

 

So, because of our pride, foolishness and greed, we never did what was needed.............and here we are

 

Why, because of our fandom, our owner, and the hockey people he surrounded himself with

 

You can look at Ottawa, New Jersey, Anaheim, and LA, as once they committed to their rebuilds, they have moved faster

 

When in actual fact, we tried to come out of our rebuild early, and look where we are........

 

it  has cost us assets and time