New management worse than Benning and Co

[cuporbust]

1 hour ago, Bob.Loblaw said:

He sucks, dude.  He's driving Ducks fans crazy right now.

Probably not as crazy as this franchise has driven it's fan base.......ever diminishing fan base I might add. 

Edited October 25, 2022 by cuporbust

[Miss Korea Bob.Loblaw]

25 minutes ago, Makaramel MacKhiato said:

Drafting was apparently his fortay as well

That guy has had bad takes for years... Benning the "good trader" and "good drafter"... wtf

[J-23]

4 hours ago, DownUndaCanuck said:

 

1) JB's Pro's - was a great trader, pulled the trigger and found a way to make deals (for better or for worse). Was a fantastic drafter, pulled some real gems out (you can thank him for the Petey and Hughes steals).

 

Benning was an overrated drafter. Pettersson was a steal. Hughes was arguably the BPA. He  went 2/4 on top 10 picks with: Virtanen, Hughes, Juolevi, Pettersson. Pretty brutal.

 

Besides Demko, no one outside of the 1st round has really solidified their position on this team. You can argue Hogs… but still struggling to find his game, getting scratched and benched.

 

I don’t see what is so amazing about his drafting outside of Pettersson.

[IBatch]

5 hours ago, jyu said:

Yes... or, this is all part of their plan. The plan is to tank for Bedard.

 

There's no other explanation for not upgrading the defence when it was so clear that

 

1. Defense was horrible and the wins were only the result of Demko playing at a level not seen since Luongo's 47 win season and

2. Whenever Hughes is off the ice, our 5-on-5 offensive generation was abysmal.

 

Now Demko is looking like a human and fighting the puck a bit and down goes our team. With Hughes off the ice, we are not generating many chances at 5-on-5 as we saw in the first 5 games of the season.

 

We really need to enter a rebuild/retool or whatever they are called by trading some of Pearson, Boeser, Miller, and maybe even Kuzmenko? What are the chance of him re-signing with a rebuilding team? If he will, I'd keep him. I'm not sure if Miller and Boeser are tradeable but my priority would be to clear them off the books. If Miller or Boeser are traded, then I'd use some of that money to re-sign Horvat but otherwise, we might have no choice but to trade Horvat.

 

Give Hoglander and Podz ice time to develop. Let Petey run the PP with Hughes. I like Joshua, Aman, Lazar, Mikheyev, and Garland so I'd keep them around for the rebuild.

 

Bring up Lockwood and Karlsson and trade for veteran forwards to help mentor the younger players.

 

 

Umm.  Demko is pretty good yes, but he's no Luongo.   Luongo was a regular highlight reel for years before Demko was even on the scene.    Florida lol... was worse then us by quite a bit, however Luongo kept them close, and stole almost every win he had before coming here.   Demko did steal some games for us too... so did Miller (Ryan), McLean - even Cloutier in the regular season one year he looked to be becoming the goalie we hoped he would.   Markstrom.   Demko's finding out it's not so easy. 

[canuckster19]

5 hours ago, the_impersonator13 said:

Patrick Alvin reminds me of Kramer in that episode of Seinfeld when he takes the subway to an office every day and finally admits to management "I don't even know what I'm doing here?!" 

Or George with the Penske file, Rutherford is definitely not Penske material.

[AV.]

If there is anybody to thank for drafting Elias Pettersson, it's Trevor Linden and Jude Brackett.  It's well known that Benning and Weisbrod tried to draft Cody Glass but eventually relented.  Assuming the Hughes BPA stayed as is, we were potentially looking at 1/4 from top 10 picks.  A 25% draft rate in that range is horrendous, like something you'd see from a team in the 1990s.

[thrago]

Not sure if they are worse, but so far they aren't any better that's for sure.

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, J-23 said:

Benning was an overrated drafter. Pettersson was a steal. Hughes was arguably the BPA. He  went 2/4 on top 10 picks with: Virtanen, Hughes, Juolevi, Pettersson. Pretty brutal.

 

Besides Demko, no one outside of the 1st round has really solidified their position on this team. You can argue Hogs… but still struggling to find his game, getting scratched and benched.

 

I don’t see what is so amazing about his drafting outside of Pettersson.

Keep trying to shed light on this.  Your both wrong.   He was an above average drafted based on where he picked.   Expectations seem to often off when it comes to picks.  Second rounders in particular, but also first rounders and 3rd and beyond.   There are a couple great studies done on the subject, the best one ive seen did 1990-2010.   Because anyone drafted in 2010 when it was done a couple years ago had been in the league for 10ish years. 

 

Some quick highlights of the study:

 

Despite staff ballooning from 1990, 10 x in some cases directed just on scouting and development, very little difference in the actual number of hits from 1990-2000 and 2000-2010.   A very tiny modest uptick in development,  around 1.5%.    That's a ton of effort and resources poured in for really little ROI, as a result an entire industry developed around the fringes too.   Not just the ISS anymore, or a couple talking heads on TSN is there. 

 

Now for nitty gritty:

 

Most players drafted will play a couple games, even the later round guys at one point or another.   Just like Brisbois did last night.  

 

The below stats again were virtually identical, accept the later rounds went up around 1.5% and was considered to be a result of better development,  not player selection.   The rest was virtually identical. 

 

100 NHL games from a second rounder is considered a success.   50% of them get that far.  

 

12.5% of 3rd rounders made that mark. 

 

12.5% of all rounds combined made it to 100NHL games.    

 

They also noticed that there was very little difference between the last 1/3 of the first round, and the entire second round as far as hits went.   And the quality of the actual hits.   Therefore, one can justify that whether it's 22nd ish or  60thish, over a 20 year period anyways, there wasn't any noticeable difference in both hits and the quality thereof.

 

As far as the rest of the first round it's somewhat segmented.   1-3, 4-6, 7-10, 11-20  in todays NHL based on a 28ish team league.    Know what the par line is (that means meets expectations and some, better then average)... much less could and should be considered a bust.

 

1-3 700 games 

4-6 500 games 

7-10 300 games

11 plus 200 games ... and only 50% of guys past 22ish 

 

JV?  Well he was a bust.  But also close to the par line.  To me he should have been a Raffe Torres, not a bust but not what you hoped for either.   He would have made the par line without covid and his weiner/big fat head.  Still he did play more games then the average 7th overall lol,  so close.

 

OJ total bust. 

 

EP massive win.   Wasn't even in all the top ten lists.  9-12 on most, some even had him as a late first.   Too small etc etc.  Early on he was the consensus number one,  now it's Makar and he's like drafting second overall. 

 

QHs was NOT the BPA - that's a fiction. He did not "drop on our lap".   He was drafted on the low end of where he was supposed to go.   If your interested in this stuff, start with ISS and stay away from hockey heads like Button and McKenzie.   They don't have the time to scout.   They rely on actual scouts to do their job and make a list.   Same with virtually all hockey writers.   ISS is a complication of scouts.   Use that as a baseline, and THN (they use the aggregate of ten NHL amateur scouts) and other venues where that's their only job.   7-11 with a few outliers either way. If you re-call, after Dahlin - it was Hughes vs Boqvist and Bouchard vs Dobson.   Bouchard was ranked just as high...higher by enough that EDM didn't even have a jersey for him because they never thought he'd drop on their lap.  That's facts.  I'm not sure where QHs will end up a decade plus from now.   Likely 3-7th.   Still JB drafted him, and nobody would have glanced sideways and wondered why he didn't take him that's for sure.   "That's a small body gentleman, a small body " - Brian Burke draft day.   McAvoy struggles to do it and he's a bit bigger.  

 

Hogs and Demko are our second rounders.  Over 8 drafts we should of had 4 guys play 100 games "on average" from 22is and beyond.   Add Brock and McAan he makes that cut.

 

Where he miffed was past the second round.  Between the 3rd round and 4-7 we should have one guy each play 100 games min.  Edler was our last real hit in the third.   Ouch.   AG covers his ass for the 3rd and beyond ... again people overrate for the most part, these guys.   Why we have to go back to Hansen to a degree.  

 

McAan.   Well he did draft him.   

 

And now the actual reality.   THN does a thing where they even the playing field by using ten amateur and pro scouts to rank 21 and unders.   And consider where they are compared to other teams in that regard.    So if a team averaged drafting 7th over a 4 year period (which we didn't from Demko on) and ranked 3rd best in the league 21 and unders, which we did...it suggests we drafted like we had 3rds overall overall a four year period instead of 7ths.   It's not perfect because it doesn't include if you had extra picks or didn't.   But it's a great predictive measure, as often those teams become the better teams in the league 4-5 years later.

 

Where JB failed was he didn't keep it up.   As far as drafting, he was above average, not a "drafting guru" just that above average.   If you stink like we did...well to me it just evened out with slipping in the lottery that's about it. 

[D.B Cooper]

6 hours ago, DownUndaCanuck said:

I wasn't a fan of the idea of a very-old JR in the background and his new inexperienced puppet Alvin taking over, plus a management-by-committee vibe. There's pro's and con's with each regime:

 

1) JB's Pro's - was a great trader, pulled the trigger and found a way to make deals (for better or for worse). Was a fantastic drafter, pulled some real gems out (you can thank him for the Petey and Hughes steals).

I’m sorry but what the hell are you talking about?   
He hit on Petey and Hughes.  That’s about it. 
Epic fail on OJ and Jake. 
Completely empty prospect pool. 
How is that a fantastic drafter?  
It looks more like he was a piss poor drafter than lucked out Elias and Quinn fell onto his lap. 

6 hours ago, DownUndaCanuck said:

 

2) JB's Con's - terrible contract signings and terrible cap management.

 

3) PA's Pro's - great cap management, conservative, doesn't panic or rush into moves.

Horrible contracts resigning Miller and Boeser. 
They should both be gone. 

6 hours ago, DownUndaCanuck said:

 

4) PA's Con's - terrible draft history in his previous roles, can't seem to fix the team's needs, can't seem to make a trade to save his life.

 

They are literally the opposite of each other and to be honest at the moment, I'd rather have a trigger-happy JB leading a tank than a conservative PA who isn't going to trade anyone for picks/prospects but just watch them all rot together.

 

I'd like to hope that JR takes the reins at some point because we've seen him trade and tear up teams like it's no tomorrow but so far it's a very different approach from him. He created winners in Pittsburgh and Carolina so hopefully he realises what is needed, and that the Canucks are at the start of that journey.

 

[DrJockitch]

JB had multiple opportunities to lead a tank and traded away pics and signed UFAs instead. 
‘A drafter who didn’t like pics and left the cupboards bare, missing doors and with big holes in them. 
The mess we are in is JBs. Yes PA deserves criticism for not doing more but the salary cap situation was very difficult and we really don’t know what offers were made for our players. 
JTM contract was better than fair market value, just the wrong direction for the team. Letting him walk for nothing though would be Benning like asset management. 
Last year was the best of JBs team. They had most of their best players playing at their peak down the stretch and still fell flat every time they had a chance to take control. This is a fragile group mentally and needs a big shake. 

Edited October 25, 2022 by DrJockitch

[Sapper]

No offence is ever going to be able to compensate for a bad defence. We are scoring the goals but by the third our defence can’t keep up. 
 

You can see the dejected look on the whole team as they get lit up in the third nearly every game

 

we don’t need a rebuild ….. we need asset management.  We can afford to drop 2 or 3 forwards and trade them for defence.  We can’t afford to keep spending to cap on forwards hoping to form a defence on reclamation projects  

[Ghostsof1915]

Here's the problem. To revamp the defence is going to take years. Defence is the hardest to learn. Dahlin, who was selected 1st overall. Has had the offensive numbers.

It's taken him 5 years to round out his game. This from a guy who started right away. Power is the opposite. He's got the defensive side down, the offence will come later. And he will make rookie mistakes. You can't trade forwards to get an elite defenceman. If you are lucky you'll get a developing d-man thats struggling. And there would be a chance that a player like that could be a bust too. Drafting is the only way to get good defence. Something this organization seems to not like doing. When we do draft defencemen, they usually get injured and ruin their development. That's why you have to follow the Nashville blueprint. Draft lots of defencemen, with the surplus, you make trades for forwards.

Build from the net out.

[timberz21]

8 hours ago, ktcy2 said:

They promised to change it or do things their way. All talk. First signed a useless Boeser to 6 million. Signed mikheyev and did not upgrade freaking defense. Guess what? You let Boeser walk and not sign freakin mikheyev you have 10 million to sign a freaking klingberg who you can flip at the TDL.

So if we flip Klingberg at the deadline, we are still missing the playoffs.  So if your solution better than now? LOL.  Actually, could be worst, if the team still sucked with Klingberg and he has a bad year, we are stuck with his contract just like we did with LE and OEL.   That would have been a Benning move to overpay for Klingberg

[combover]

Another Benning homer thread. 
Jr suppose to fix 8 years of stupid in 10  months with no cap space no prospects and garbage contracts. 
Jb had 8 season of FAILURE to fix any of the many issues we still have.  he was fired because he was an incompetent idiot.

 

 

 

[drofssalg]

I have been on the fence with this management group. I did not jump on the boards and sing their praises when they were hired (I don't care who they are and what they have done - I want to see what they do for the Canucks). While I appreciate I have a fan's perspective so my ideas are not always NHL GM ideas but I was fully on board with moving a maximum value JT Miller and not re-signing him. The value of that trade - picks and prospects was critical to this teams future. And on the Boeser front, I get where they made the decision - do you let a 20 goal scorer walk for nothing? They re-signed him as asset management but in that instance I think Cap management should have taken precedent. Then signing Mikheyev? That's a head scratcher but I suspect without it ever being said officially that Kuzmenko and Mikheyev were a package deal. 

 

The sad reality is simply this - they took a Jim Benning team and doubled down on it. Not sure that is encouraging. Some speculate ownership meddling. Not sure that is true. Regardless, this new management group still does not have me singing their praises. Can they redeem themselves? I hope so. But so far this feels like Deja Vu. At this point, I really don't want to see this roster recover and save face. I don't want a 92 point season. I want a full acknowledgment that this team needs some serious tweaking. There are some great pieces in place but honestly, I don't care who goes and who stays. It's been 11 years since the 2011 Final and I can't see this team being competitive any time soon. Start the make over... I can cheer for that. 

 

 

Edited October 25, 2022 by drofssalg
spelling

[Neversummer]

Welp ... at least Canucks are known for their diversity and inclusion in the front office.  

 

 

[flat land fish]

9 hours ago, J-23 said:

This is literally Benning’s core lol

The new crew identified we had issues on defence and then spent close to 5 million on a 3rd line forward.  They totally missed the boat.

[VegasCanuck]

[Aladeen]

First or last. That’s how we can tell this team is progressing. What’s the point of barely missing the playoffs or even making them and being bounced in 4?  
 

The way to improve this team is to get those top draft picks and not to blow them this time. 

 

[Aladeen]

To add to that, stop trading picks!!