Canucks Management "NO-SHOW's" at STH/Memebers only meeting.

[Drive-By Body Pierce]

1 hour ago, Toews said:

Nothing in life is worthy of "unconditional support", what you are advocating for is irrationality. That never leads to any good. Kids turn into spoiled brats when their parents refuse to admit that the child can ever do wrong. Political leaders become unaccountable to their electorate when the people refuse to admit fault with their chosen party. Only organized religion and cults ever advocate for "unconditional support" and those are some of the worst, most toxic institutions in the world. Even in situations of addiction or mental health, you should still be critical and scrutinize the words and actions of the people you are trying to help. Otherwise all you are doing is being an enabler, especially in situations where addiction is involved.

Nice that you have your opinion. 

 

My son gets my unconditional love, and is one of the most amazing humans I have ever met (yes I am biased, but you seem even moreso in the opposite direction). He literally goes out of his way to help others, because he also understands when people are at their lows, unnfortunately having had to go through having a teammate, and close friend, take their own life at the age of 11.

 

Unconditional support does not mean being "an enabler". 

 

I have been, and know many alcoholics and people struggling with depression. I certainly support them and am thankful to have had others' unconditional support, no matter what they/I do. Doesn't mean I'm handing them a drink (enabling).

 

I would/do genuinely hate to see a parent not providing their child with that level of support. And I feel bad for those getting what you seem to be describing as "support".

 

Political leaders or cults, as you reference, are clearly not providing positive unconditional support. Again, it seems (dupe) that it's making excuses to not support.

 

You seem to be taking the "extreme" stance of if someone is unconditionally supporting, they are somehow enabling them to make the wrong decisions.

 

It's supporting when it's, whether they make the right or wrong decision, not helping them make the wrong decision.

 

I also feel bad that you are in a position to feel that nothing in life deserves unconditional support. Maybe you could use some unconditional support?

[Gurn]

45 minutes ago, kilgore said:

Many, many people are saying......

They are saying, because it was the truth.

Here is a partial list off, the top of my head,   of the folk that thought signing Miller was a mistake.

I ask that those I  @  to add some  those I forgot.

@aGENT

@Gawdzukes

@Coconuts

@DownUndaCanuck

@AV

@RU SERIOUS

 

@Tank4Bedard

@Provost

 

Doesn't take long, in the 1000 page plus Miller thread, or even a few of the other Miller threads, to see a lot of folk thought the signing was the wrong thing to do.

Others are more recently thinking the signing was the wrong thing, as they see Miller's struggles.

Edited January 12, 2023 by Gurn

[Coconuts]

I was arguing we should trade Miller starting back roughly around November 2021 and I haven't stopped. 

 

I wanted him gone at the deadline or prior to it in 2022, and again at the draft, and again last summer. 

 

I've consistently argued we were probably at least four years out from contention whereas there were several who argued we were within two years of it. 

 

I repeatedly argued that Horvat should be prioritized, I also argued we'd probably be better off trading Miller for picks, prospects, or to help address our D, running with Pettersson and Horvat as our one two punch, and that we could be competitive without Miller. 

 

I was pointing out Miller's weak defensive play, poor passing decisions, tendency to float, and so on but many were willing to give him a pass because he was having a career season. He's still doing those things and now he's not on pace for what he was last season. He still gives up some of what he produces via his defensive play but his production isn't what it was. 

 

There were a lot of folks keen to retain him, who were sure his being a 99 point player was somehow his new normal, there were also plenty like myself who argued that he didn't fit our competitive timeline. I thought we were further away, it's sure looking that way. I argued we should build around Pettersson, Hughes, Podz, and Demko going forward and that Horvat could be a good transitional piece, I still think that would have been a better direction. 

 

It's not just about folks looking back in retrospect, some of us have been arguing we'd be better off moving him for over a year now. And a great many other things since at least last spring. 

Edited January 12, 2023 by Coconuts

[Alflives]

Just now, Coconuts said:

I was arguing we should trade Miller starting back roughly around November 2021 and I haven't stopped. 

 

I wanted him gone at the deadline or prior to it in 2022, and again at the draft, and again last summer. 

 

I've consistently argued we were probably at least four years out from contention whereas there were several who argued we were within two years of it. 

 

I repeatedly argued that Horvat should be prioritized, I also argued we'd probably be better off trading Miller for picks, prospects, or to help address our D, running with Pettersson and Horvat as our one two punch, and that we could be competitive without Miller. 

 

I was pointing out Miller's weak defensive play, poor passing decisions, tendency to float, and so on but many were willing to give him a pass because he was having a career season. He's still doing those things and now he's not on pace for what he was last season. He still gives up some of what he produces via his defensive play but his production isn't what it was. 

 

There were a lot of folks keen to retain him, who were sure his being a 99 point player was somehow his new normal, there were also plenty like myself who argued that he didn't fit our competitive timeline. I thought we were further away, it's sure looking that way. I argued we should build around Pettersson, Hughes, Podz, and Demko going forward and that Horvat could be a good transitional piece, I still think that would have been a better direction. 

 

It's not just about folks looking back in retrospect, some of us have been arguing these things for over a year now. 

The only person whose voice mattered, that wanted Miller retained, was our owner’s.  

[Coconuts]

1 minute ago, Alflives said:

The only person whose voice mattered, that wanted Miller retained, was our owner’s.  

Yes Alf, I know where you stand on ownership

 

You've argued that almost as much as I've argued we should move/should have moved Miller 

[aGENT]

8 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

I was arguing we should trade Miller starting back roughly around November 2021 and I haven't stopped. 

 

I wanted him gone at the deadline or prior to it in 2022, and again at the draft, and again last summer. 

 

I've consistently argued we were probably at least four years out from contention whereas there were several who argued we were within two years of it. 

 

I repeatedly argued that Horvat should be prioritized, I also argued we'd probably be better off trading Miller for picks, prospects, or to help address our D, running with Pettersson and Horvat as our one two punch, and that we could be competitive without Miller. 

 

I was pointing out Miller's weak defensive play, poor passing decisions, tendency to float, and so on but many were willing to give him a pass because he was having a career season. He's still doing those things and now he's not on pace for what he was last season. He still gives up some of what he produces via his defensive play but his production isn't what it was. 

 

There were a lot of folks keen to retain him, who were sure his being a 99 point player was somehow his new normal, there were also plenty like myself who argued that he didn't fit our competitive timeline. I thought we were further away, it's sure looking that way. I argued we should build around Pettersson, Hughes, Podz, and Demko going forward and that Horvat could be a good transitional piece, I still think that would have been a better direction. 

 

It's not just about folks looking back in retrospect, some of us have been arguing we'd be better off moving him for over a year now. And a great many other things since at least last spring. 

[Coconuts]

1 minute ago, aGENT said:

It's okay, there are more than enough trade Miller drums for us to beat together 

 

But yeah, we've been in agreement about a lot of things including players, the future of the team, direction, culture, ect most of the past year 

 

@stawns too 

[AriGold]

7 hours ago, SerenityNow said:

I have since heard from another STH that it was actually an "open practice" that some STH selected as a benefit with their ticket package, and I guess this post-practice meeting was thrown in?  It's all a bit hazy.  Just like most things with this organization these days.

Ahh yes. That was a "perk" option but most people don't choose it over other stuff. No management was suppose to attend that though so this much ado about nothing.

[greenbean30]

Whoops wrong thread.

Edited January 13, 2023 by greenbean30

[alt kilgore]

4 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

I was arguing we should trade Miller starting back roughly around November 2021 and I haven't stopped. 

 

I wanted him gone at the deadline or prior to it in 2022, and again at the draft, and again last summer. 

 

I've consistently argued we were probably at least four years out from contention whereas there were several who argued we were within two years of it. 

 

I repeatedly argued that Horvat should be prioritized, I also argued we'd probably be better off trading Miller for picks, prospects, or to help address our D, running with Pettersson and Horvat as our one two punch, and that we could be competitive without Miller. 

 

I was pointing out Miller's weak defensive play, poor passing decisions, tendency to float, and so on but many were willing to give him a pass because he was having a career season. He's still doing those things and now he's not on pace for what he was last season. He still gives up some of what he produces via his defensive play but his production isn't what it was. 

 

There were a lot of folks keen to retain him, who were sure his being a 99 point player was somehow his new normal, there were also plenty like myself who argued that he didn't fit our competitive timeline. I thought we were further away, it's sure looking that way. I argued we should build around Pettersson, Hughes, Podz, and Demko going forward and that Horvat could be a good transitional piece, I still think that would have been a better direction. 

 

It's not just about folks looking back in retrospect, some of us have been arguing these things for over a year now. 

Yes, yourself and some were more vocal about not wanting to keep Miller than some.  I think though that others are now jumping on the trade Miller bandwagon when as you put it  "many were willing to give him a pass because he was having a career season".

 

I was against Miller before that even.  Many were praising the initial Miller trade, like we "won".  That was still at a time when I was in the minority who voice was getting hoarse calling for Benning to be fired, and for us to NOT trade any more 1sts or any draft picks for vets no matter how good a veteran looked.  And that Miller might have been a decent hockey trade, it was NOT the right time for the team.

 

But I had to adjust my thinking after it was clear that JR had come to the conclusion that JB had gone too far in his playoffs or bust plan, and we had more to lose by gutting the team, wasting Quinns and Petey's and Demko's best years. and maybe having one or more demand out.  And now it was carry on with the re-tool, but hopefully smarter.  This conclusion was after Boeser was  signed, we landed Kuz, and maybe even Mik by then too. So......it was too late for a rebuild now, or so i thought.

 

And so with that in mind, how do we best build for the immediate future. For decent playoff runs in the next few years. Considering that, signing our top producer, and who worked well with Petey too, was not so bizarre.  Of course something like a 7 x 5 would have been easier to swallow, but to me, IF we were doubling down once again....this time for sure for sure for sure making the playoffs, then having Miller's help in the post season was not only welcome but probably imperative if we were to go anywhere. And we deal with his final years of the contract later.  A necessary evil.

 

But the plan didn't go as planned this season, so I too have altered my opinion and have to abandon my hopes that JR, Alvin and the Chipettes can turn it around with the core we have. Boeser's decline was also not foreseen.  And I've always been of the opinion that we should trade Miller if the return is right, even before he signed. I just tried to recognize the silver lining after there was nothing we could do about it.

[Coconuts]

28 minutes ago, kilgore said:

Yes, yourself and some were more vocal about not wanting to keep Miller than some.  I think though that others are now jumping on the trade Miller bandwagon when as you put it  "many were willing to give him a pass because he was having a career season".

 

I was against Miller before that even.  Many were praising the initial Miller trade, like we "won".  That was still at a time when I was in the minority who voice was getting hoarse calling for Benning to be fired, and for us to NOT trade any more 1sts or any draft picks for vets no matter how good a veteran looked.  And that Miller might have been a decent hockey trade, it was NOT the right time for the team.

 

But I had to adjust my thinking after it was clear that JR had come to the conclusion that JB had gone too far in his playoffs or bust plan, and we had more to lose by gutting the team, wasting Quinns and Petey's and Demko's best years. and maybe having one or more demand out.  And now it was carry on with the re-tool, but hopefully smarter.  This conclusion was after Boeser was  signed, we landed Kuz, and maybe even Mik by then too. So......it was too late for a rebuild now, or so i thought.

 

And so with that in mind, how do we best build for the immediate future. For decent playoff runs in the next few years. Considering that, signing our top producer, and who worked well with Petey too, was not so bizarre.  Of course something like a 7 x 5 would have been easier to swallow, but to me, IF we were doubling down once again....this time for sure for sure for sure making the playoffs, then having Miller's help in the post season was not only welcome but probably imperative if we were to go anywhere. And we deal with his final years of the contract later.  A necessary evil.

 

But the plan didn't go as planned this season, so I too have altered my opinion and have to abandon my hopes that JR, Alvin and the Chipettes can turn it around with the core we have. Boeser's decline was also not foreseen.  And I've always been of the opinion that we should trade Miller if the return is right, even before he signed. I just tried to recognize the silver lining after there was nothing we could do about it.

It's shifted a bit, sure, but I think there were quite a few folks who were more in the middle. I've been firmly on the one side for a while, there are quite a few of us who've been firmly on one side or the other. Some of it's people likely having changed their mind though, I do agree. Mind you I've peeked into other places besides CDC, while the Miller signing may have been well received on CDC it wasn't a consenus amongst the Canucks fanbase. 

 

I'm not keen on moving out picks in general but that one worked out, we just didn't capitalize on him the way we should have. I can't remember my reaction the initial trade, I'd have to go dig for it, but in retrospect we probably would have been better off gutting it out at the bottom for a few more seasons. That was part of my argument for moving Miller, I reckoned we'd be better off taking shorter term steps back in order to take more steps forward going forward. I thought we could be a fringe playoff team without him though. 

 

This current management group hasn't helped themselves. Their moves haven't all been bad but not trading Miller and retaining Boeser wasn't ideal. I'd have been fine moving on from both of them tbh. He doesn't have the shot he once did and that was his biggest weapon. 

 

I think there's a path to fixing things but it likely involves ejecting the veteran parts of this core, guys like Miller and Horvat. As previously mentioned I was all in on keeping Bo, now I view him moving on as inevitable. He's upped his value, we lowballed him, and all he's largely done during his Canucks tenure is lose. Miller still doesn't fit our competitive timeline, less so if Bo's not in the fold. OEL's likely stuck here for a while, we'll have to ride that one out. 

 

I'd still try to build around Pettersson, Hughes, and Podz. I've waivered a bit on Demko, it depends on the offer, but if he can bounce back he's a good piece. Stable. We should be looking to acquire picks, prospects, and young NHL'ers to build up the wave the comes after Pettersson and Hughes. I don't see us contending any time soon but if we're smart we can still build a good team. No more long term deals to anyone who isn't Pettersson in the near future. Cap flex is key, therefore we should be eying guys we can sign to short or medium term deals. 

 

I'm open to retaining Schenn but I'd trade him if a team offered a 2nd or better. I'd also trade Kuzmenko this season and try to move Pearson and Myers are 50% during the summer or at some point next season. I think Boeser and Garland's value could be rehabilitated, and that there's space for Garland going forward at the very least. If we're moving guys out we'll need to play someone in our top six. 

 

A lot of it involves management calling a spade a spade though, there are no quick fixes with this group and we're likely further away than closer despite JR's insistence we could contend within two years. Our defense will likely take a while to address for one, the same goes for our prospect pool. 

Edited January 13, 2023 by Coconuts

[aGENT]

18 minutes ago, kilgore said:

I was against Miller before that even.  Many were praising the initial Miller trade, like we "won".  That was still at a time when I was in the minority who voice was getting hoarse calling for Benning to be fired, and for us to NOT trade any more 1sts or any draft picks for vets no matter how good a veteran looked.  And that Miller might have been a decent hockey trade, it was NOT the right time for the team.

If we'd done the right thing, it's hard to imagine a scenario where we didn't get more in trade for Miller than what we paid to acquire him.

 

It's always the "right time" to add value to your franchise. That's exactly how you build a winning team, adding, multiplying and utilizing asset value. 

 

Unfortunately this management appears to be intent on squandering that added value, and extended it to a (albeit below market value) retirement contract that has basically zero chance of outperforming it's cap hit long term and doesn't fit this team's timeline. Though we still have a 5'ish month window to rectify that....

[Gnarcore]

10 hours ago, DrJockitch said:

Don’t bother, it just generates the typical responses. 

Ok..how about I just run up and kick him in the shins then? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

JK ofc...not actually looking to assault anyone! (don't ban me). I am looking at you Stealth!  

[Herberts Vasiljevs]

I am personally offended that I haven't seen a Tigger warning anywhere here, because thhhsomeone might come bounthhhcing in thisthh thhread!!!!!

 

 

 

 

[R3aL]

On 1/11/2023 at 6:00 AM, tas said:

they feel like a bunch of consultants, not people that identify as canucks. 

 

the group of players kind of feels the same way. 

That kinda hits

 

 

[Warhippy]

People arguing over "Allvin and the chipmunk girls" like it's offensive.

 

But no once are they offended at JR, Allvin and 13.4 assistant GMs calling themselves a credible NHL management team

 

But that's *sniff* none of my business 

[NHL97OneTimer]

3 hours ago, Coconuts said:

I was arguing we should trade Miller starting back roughly around November 2021 and I haven't stopped. 

 

I wanted him gone at the deadline or prior to it in 2022, and again at the draft, and again last summer. 

 

I've consistently argued we were probably at least four years out from contention whereas there were several who argued we were within two years of it. 

 

I repeatedly argued that Horvat should be prioritized, I also argued we'd probably be better off trading Miller for picks, prospects, or to help address our D, running with Pettersson and Horvat as our one two punch, and that we could be competitive without Miller. 

 

I was pointing out Miller's weak defensive play, poor passing decisions, tendency to float, and so on but many were willing to give him a pass because he was having a career season. He's still doing those things and now he's not on pace for what he was last season. He still gives up some of what he produces via his defensive play but his production isn't what it was. 

 

There were a lot of folks keen to retain him, who were sure his being a 99 point player was somehow his new normal, there were also plenty like myself who argued that he didn't fit our competitive timeline. I thought we were further away, it's sure looking that way. I argued we should build around Pettersson, Hughes, Podz, and Demko going forward and that Horvat could be a good transitional piece, I still think that would have been a better direction. 

 

It's not just about folks looking back in retrospect, some of us have been arguing we'd be better off moving him for over a year now. And a great many other things since at least last spring. 

I was one of those people who saw Miller as an emotional leader for the club which this club desperately needs.  I was fine with him not scoring 99 if he could keep providing his overall impact other than points and still contribute 70+ points per season.  However, I wanted nothing to do with the term.  I was hoping they'd kick every can to have a 4-5 year contract and then explore trade options if now.  But here we are with a looooong contract and Miller having a significantly smaller positive impact on this team this year.  I don't think this year was predictable......I think this was predictable for 4+ seasons from now.  Crappy situation.

[Coconuts]

8 minutes ago, NHL97OneTimer said:

I was one of those people who saw Miller as an emotional leader for the club which this club desperately needs.  I was fine with him not scoring 99 if he could keep providing his overall impact other than points and still contribute 70+ points per season.  However, I wanted nothing to do with the term.  I was hoping they'd kick every can to have a 4-5 year contract and then explore trade options if now.  But here we are with a looooong contract and Miller having a significantly smaller positive impact on this team this year.  I don't think this year was predictable......I think this was predictable for 4+ seasons from now.  Crappy situation.

Canucks don't need an emotional leader, they need a properly structured roster. They don't have it. 

 

We aren't going to be contending sooner than later and what's left of his prime will likely be spent on a team that won't do a whole lot. 

 

The season itself may not have been predictable but his coming back down to earth was, you call it a career season for a reason. 

[NHL97OneTimer]

3 hours ago, Coconuts said:

Canucks don't need an emotional leader, they need a properly structured roster. They don't have it. 

 

We aren't going to be contending sooner than later and what's left of his prime will likely be spent on a team that won't do a whole lot. 

 

The season itself may not have been predictable but his coming back down to earth was, you call it a career season for a reason. 

Yeah I get that re: roster.  My point was that I wouldn't have minded him on the team for a shorter, more palatable contract but I wasn't happy with what was signed.  Yet another "good player, bad contract" situation.  

[kanucks25]

Personally, I blame Gillis.