[Discussion] Will early exit playoff teams revisit Miller?

[iinatcc]

Does a team have the equivalent of Ballard, Raymond and 1st ? 

[DownUndaCanuck]

Sadly I think that boat has sailed - NYR and Boston and Carolina and even Pittsburgh really missed their opportunity. They had 2 years to acquire Miller and messed it up. Now I don't think Miller's going anywhere - he's playing really well, a big leader and fills a big hole on this team and coach. 

 

Problem is now if we trade him, we have to find a decent 2C as well and they're pretty hard to come by. Miller is a great two-way PPG center under Tocchet and that's pretty valuable, that's arguably a first line center on a lot of other teams.

 

Pittsburgh offered us what, two firsts and a prospect and we said no because a center wasn't involved.

 

I wonder if Boston offered Zacha + Carlo + 1st, if we'd take it or not. Zacha had a massive year, 20+ goals, 50+ points, bad at the faceoff dot but a very good 3C, 2C on a lot of non-playoff teams. Sadly if we trade Miller, Zacha is our 2C so there's a big drop off between Petey and Zacha. We could maybe test free agency and sign Monahan or Compher who are kind of like bad 2Cs/good 3Cs and roll with two solid middle-6 centers instead of a true 2C and grinder 3C. Our team would be better balanced for it to be fair. Even if we drop off the first, here's what it may look like.

 

Problem again is that Zacha and Carlo combine for around 8.8M so we'd be in an even worse position cap-wise. Say we can flip Garland for the cost of one of our 3rds and sign Monahan or Compher with that money, we'd look like this:

 

Mikheyev - Pettersson - Kuzmenko

Beauvillier - Zacha - Boeser

Hoglander - Compher - PDG
Joshua - Aman  - Studnicka

 

Hughes - Carlo

OEL - Hronek

Hirose - Myers

 

We've got to remember Carlo is no superstar defenceman, he was playing sheltered bottom pairing and PK minutes in Boston, but will be used as a rich man's Schenn. The trade gives us more balance for sure but we lose a great matchup guy in Miller - not sure how good Zacha and Compher will be 1-on-1 against McDavid etc. Certainly something to consider.

 

There are similar deals like this with other teams too I'd consider.

 

Miller for KK + Scott Morrow + pick - very similar, we get a young 3C who might play up the lineup in the future, and a solid RD but again, big drop off in points production and they're young so a bit unknown.

 

With the Pens, we could do something like Miller for Marcus Pettersson + Granlund + pick. Not a great package, the pick would surely be a 1st or 2nd for taking Granlund's bad cap back but we get a 3C and top-4 defenceman to play with Hronek this time.

 

NYR would be interesting, of course you've got to think it revolves around Schneider. In terms of centers, Goodrow isn't good enough, they love Trocheck over there but he was invisible in the playoffs, and I'm not sure if they move Chytil now he's just been extended. On defence surely it's between Schneider who still plays limited minutes and will take years before he breaks through Fox (probably never) or Trouba's minutes (maybe in 3 years), and Lindgren. So basically a deal involving Trocheck/Chytil + Schneider/Lindgren. Doubt we get a pick as well, we might have to give up Rathbone as well. Honestly, Miller + Rathbone for Chytil + Schneider would be pretty interesting for both teams. It'll work with cap - they let their UFAs walk, and the Canucks free up around 4M in cap space so again could target a UFA middle-6 center like Compher or Monahan.

 

All depends on what management and coaching want - trading Miller gives us a lot more balance which I think we need, especially on defence, but we lose top-end quality which is hard to come by. You know Miller looks great now but how many more years can he sustain PPG performance, 2-3? I'd be happy either way, if we don't trade Miller though we have to find a top-4 defenceman elsewhere. There is a UFA market for them this year so no excuses but I doubt management make a move like that, they'll probably rest on their signing of Hirose and hope OEL and Myers perform better which is a risky move.

[Junkyard Dog]

Given the choice we made of building around the current core with players that can help the team and not by rebuilding, I would be surprised if they did.

 

It would probably have to be a deal that helps the team now and moving forward.

[Alflives]

4 hours ago, DownUndaCanuck said:

Sadly I think that boat has sailed - NYR and Boston and Carolina and even Pittsburgh really missed their opportunity. They had 2 years to acquire Miller and messed it up. Now I don't think Miller's going anywhere - he's playing really well, a big leader and fills a big hole on this team and coach. 

 

Problem is now if we trade him, we have to find a decent 2C as well and they're pretty hard to come by. Miller is a great two-way PPG center under Tocchet and that's pretty valuable, that's arguably a first line center on a lot of other teams.

 

Pittsburgh offered us what, two firsts and a prospect and we said no because a center wasn't involved.

 

I wonder if Boston offered Zacha + Carlo + 1st, if we'd take it or not. Zacha had a massive year, 20+ goals, 50+ points, bad at the faceoff dot but a very good 3C, 2C on a lot of non-playoff teams. Sadly if we trade Miller, Zacha is our 2C so there's a big drop off between Petey and Zacha. We could maybe test free agency and sign Monahan or Compher who are kind of like bad 2Cs/good 3Cs and roll with two solid middle-6 centers instead of a true 2C and grinder 3C. Our team would be better balanced for it to be fair. Even if we drop off the first, here's what it may look like.

 

Problem again is that Zacha and Carlo combine for around 8.8M so we'd be in an even worse position cap-wise. Say we can flip Garland for the cost of one of our 3rds and sign Monahan or Compher with that money, we'd look like this:

 

Mikheyev - Pettersson - Kuzmenko

Beauvillier - Zacha - Boeser

Hoglander - Compher - PDG
Joshua - Aman  - Studnicka

 

Hughes - Carlo

OEL - Hronek

Hirose - Myers

 

We've got to remember Carlo is no superstar defenceman, he was playing sheltered bottom pairing and PK minutes in Boston, but will be used as a rich man's Schenn. The trade gives us more balance for sure but we lose a great matchup guy in Miller - not sure how good Zacha and Compher will be 1-on-1 against McDavid etc. Certainly something to consider.

 

There are similar deals like this with other teams too I'd consider.

 

Miller for KK + Scott Morrow + pick - very similar, we get a young 3C who might play up the lineup in the future, and a solid RD but again, big drop off in points production and they're young so a bit unknown.

 

With the Pens, we could do something like Miller for Marcus Pettersson + Granlund + pick. Not a great package, the pick would surely be a 1st or 2nd for taking Granlund's bad cap back but we get a 3C and top-4 defenceman to play with Hronek this time.

 

NYR would be interesting, of course you've got to think it revolves around Schneider. In terms of centers, Goodrow isn't good enough, they love Trocheck over there but he was invisible in the playoffs, and I'm not sure if they move Chytil now he's just been extended. On defence surely it's between Schneider who still plays limited minutes and will take years before he breaks through Fox (probably never) or Trouba's minutes (maybe in 3 years), and Lindgren. So basically a deal involving Trocheck/Chytil + Schneider/Lindgren. Doubt we get a pick as well, we might have to give up Rathbone as well. Honestly, Miller + Rathbone for Chytil + Schneider would be pretty interesting for both teams. It'll work with cap - they let their UFAs walk, and the Canucks free up around 4M in cap space so again could target a UFA middle-6 center like Compher or Monahan.

 

All depends on what management and coaching want - trading Miller gives us a lot more balance which I think we need, especially on defence, but we lose top-end quality which is hard to come by. You know Miller looks great now but how many more years can he sustain PPG performance, 2-3? I'd be happy either way, if we don't trade Miller though we have to find a top-4 defenceman elsewhere. There is a UFA market for them this year so no excuses but I doubt management make a move like that, they'll probably rest on their signing of Hirose and hope OEL and Myers perform better which is a risky move.

Parts of this are good. But we aren’t going to be a good team with OEL and Myers. We need to dumperoo both. Buyout and Trade. 

[Ghostsof1915]

You want to rebuild?

Get rid of everyone. Petey, Hughes, Demko, Miller.

Because none of the players are going to want to stay here and go through a full rebuild.

The time for this was earlier in the season. Once Bo was traded, they should have kept Bruce. And traded everyone else.

Stockpile picks and start from scratch and hope to get Bedard and build the team around him. Then hire a new coach.

 

Pretty much too late for that now.

[canucklehead44]

1 hour ago, Alflives said:

Parts of this are good. But we aren’t going to be a good team with OEL and Myers. We need to dumperoo both. Buyout and Trade. 

Yes. But it isn’t that easy. Also buying out OEL means adding another big contract which compounds issues when EP and Hughes need contracts. 
 

If we were in a two-year compete window then maybe, but we aren’t. It is almost better to roll the dice in the chance that OEL goes on long term LTIR. 
 

Myers contract expires when Hronek and EP are up for renewal (Pearson as well) so that money will just be shifted to those two.

Here are the moves I would make:

 

Out - Boeser, Dries, Dermott, Pearson (waived/ltir)

 

In - PDG, McDonough, Hoglander, Bjugstad (1x2), Soucy (4x4), Wolanin, Juulsen/Woo

 

Hogz EP Kuz

PDG Miller Garland

Mikheyev Bjugstad Kravstov 

Joshua Aman McDonough/Podkolzin

Studnicka

 

Hughes Bear

OEL Hronek

Wolanin Soucy

Myers/Juulsen

 

- since Soucy can play both sides this adds to a lot of combinations

 

Hughes Soucy

OEL Hronek

Wolanin Bear

Myers/Juulsen 

 

Hughes Myers/Juulsen

Soucy Hronek

OEL Bear 

Wolanin 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 3, 2023 by canucklehead44

[HorvatToBaertschi]

The 2 goals in a combined 4 of the last 5 games really highlights that New York fumbled the negotiations and should have 100% ponied up for a player of Miller's caliber. The core there is hovering around 30 years old, and they need to start pushing seriously for them. I'd say the ship has sailed on Miller and they will live with that regret for seasons to come. 

[BCNate]

Miller most likely isn't moving.  He was outstanding under RT.

 

PA will open up cap space in other ways.

[CRAZY_4_NAZZY]

Allvin emphasized in his year end media availability meeting that he is happy to have JT Miller on the Canucks but made it known, it doesn't mean he won't look into options that arise. Pettersson, Hughes, and likely Demko are the only players he won't look at moving, but everyone is fair game...including JT.

 

I am open to moving JT if it brings a young promising center. Not just an up and coming center, but one that is making an impact now. I think Jim and Allvin have made it clear that would be the clear ask too.

[BPA]

It would take an overpay offer to let go of Miller.  Or get the other team to take on a player the Canucks want to get rid of (ie. Poolman, Myers, OEL, a winger).

 

[higgyfan]

Of course every player is available for the right price, which usually is an overpayment.

 

I'm sure there are a few teams that realize the mistake they made by not making a trade for JT.

On the Canucks, he is one of the few line drivers, can put up points with wingers that are struggling

or don't belong in the top 6, plays physical, plays with passion and is just the kind of player in big

demand on a playoff team.  He had a slump in the 1st half of the season, but is now playing the

game style that the team needs the most.

 

Trading Miller for Carlo, who was terrible in the playoffs and Zacha, who plays LW; not C,

does not improve our team.

 

If the Canucks are ever going to be a contender, they will need a player like JT and that is why

any trade return has to be an overpayment.

 

Team needs: temporary 3C.... trade one of the 3RWs for Nico Strom (2mx2)

                            "          RD....sign (1 of) UFA Scott Mayfield, Shattenkirk, Gudas, Schenn (?x 2)  

                                                

 

[Bobby James]

I really felt like Pitts was a great fit for Miller and I can't believe a deal wasn't worked out with Miller going there and Marino, a pick and a prospect coming back. Such a shame, but onwards we go...

 

Yeah this team is in a tough spot now. We have made it clear we aren't rebuilding and plan on going for the playoffs. Petey and Hughes are both into that plan, so we really need a solid 2C and based on the end of last season Miller fit that role well. 

 

I think as said, they are open to any potential trade, but a team will have to pay a decent amount to pull Miller from Van. It may also depend on how much cap we can move out as well this offseason. Meyers hopefully and a winger for sure (Garland, Beau, Boes). 

 

One thing that could really make the Canucks move Miller though is if Petey doesn't like him. They will be starting negotiations with him this offseason for a long term contract and that could be one thing that makes the Canucks management more willing to move him. Keeping your superstar 1C happy will be priority. However, it sounds like they have been working on their relationship, looked good on the PK together to end the year and obviously have shown flashes of great chemistry over the past few years (so I'm not saying this is the case). 

[Ted Lasso]

While Carlo’s defensive stats are sparkling, he’s had 5 concussions. Miller, conversely, is very durable. 
 

Imagine losing our most physical, PPG power forward to have Carlo on LTIR

[flickyoursedin]

Islanders realizing they don’t have enough juice up front to make Horvat a ppg player so they give us their next 8 first round picks for Miller!

[flickyoursedin]

7 hours ago, Kenny Powers said:

While Carlo’s defensive stats are sparkling, he’s had 5 concussions. Miller, conversely, is very durable. 
 

Imagine losing our most physical, PPG power forward to have Carlo on LTIR

Yeah pass on Carlo! Don’t know why his name comes up so often here. The concussions and lack of offence the price tag just doesn’t seem worth it to me.

[Provost]

3 hours ago, flickyoursedin said:

Yeah pass on Carlo! Don’t know why his name comes up so often here. The concussions and lack of offence the price tag just doesn’t seem worth it to me.

That doesn’t even make any sense.

 

1.  He is on an amazingly team friendly contract signed long term at $4.1 million and able to play 20 minutes a night on one of your top two pairings.

 

2.  We don’t need another offensive D Man… we need someone steady to help keep the puck out of our net.  He would be a good complementary partner for either Hughes or OEL.

 

3.  Him not being durable is just made up.  He has had one season where he missed significant time in his entire career.  It was a shortened Covid season where he played 27 of 56 games.  He plays 70-80 games a season which is very durable for a top 4 D who get beat up a lot more than wingers. 
 

In his career going backwards, the number of games

 he has missed by year:  7, 3, 29, 3, 10, 6, 0

[Ted Lasso]

21 hours ago, Provost said:

That doesn’t even make any sense.

 

1.  He is on an amazingly team friendly contract signed long term at $4.1 million and able to play 20 minutes a night on one of your top two pairings.

 

2.  We don’t need another offensive D Man… we need someone steady to help keep the puck out of our net.  He would be a good complementary partner for either Hughes or OEL.

 

3.  Him not being durable is just made up.  He has had one season where he missed significant time in his entire career.  It was a shortened Covid season where he played 27 of 56 games.  He plays 70-80 games a season which is very durable for a top 4 D who get beat up a lot more than wingers. 
 

In his career going backwards, the number of games

 he has missed by year:  7, 3, 29, 3, 10, 6, 0

https://insidetherink.com/bruins-defenseman-brandon-carlo-rebounds-from-fifth-concussion/
 

Missed the playoffs in 2017 after his first concussion, and temporarily lost vision in one eye after his most recent one. He needs to be careful. 

[DownUndaCanuck]

What if a team comes to us with two decent picks and a young player for Miller, do we take that? They would really have to overpay, especially considering we said no to Pittsburgh's offer of two firsts and a prospect.

 

Washington for 8OA, 40OA and Dylan Strome?

 

Pittsburgh for 14OA + POJ + Granlund

 

Carolina for 32OA + Morrow + KK

 

NYR for 24OA + Schneider + late pick

 

 

As great as Miller has been under Tocchet, some of these are tempting. Management would never do it because it trends towards more of a rebuild but boy, with this draft class, that's a heck of a rebuild. Obviously with the Hronek deal we're going the other way but you can't help to think what this team could have been like if we just sold Bo and Miller for one of the above packages and did a mini rebuild.

 

We could be sitting here with Miller + Bo for a combined 11OA, 18OA, Raty, Beauvillier, (say we deal with WSH), 8OA and 40OA pick and our own 43 OA. We could easily draft Reinbacher and Dvorsky with the two top picks, a decent defenceman like Strbak with the 18OA and then a guy like Lindstein (hopefully) and Willander. I know it's defence-heavy but we get Raty in the Bo deal. Suddenly, turn two top-6 centers in their prime into two future top-6 two-way centers, one future star defenceman (Reinbacher), another possible future star but likely solid top-4 guy (Strbak) and a flyer on most likely two future top-4 Swedish D-men. That's an entire new core with just two trades.

 

Instead (and I've proposed this too elsewhere) I wouldn't be surprised or particularly mad if we even trade our 1st for a solid young shutdown defenceman to be honest - it's just a completely different direction we're going in.

[Alflives]

16 minutes ago, DownUndaCanuck said:

What if a team comes to us with two decent picks and a young player for Miller, do we take that? They would really have to overpay, especially considering we said no to Pittsburgh's offer of two firsts and a prospect.

 

Washington for 8OA, 40OA and Dylan Strome?

 

Pittsburgh for 14OA + POJ + Granlund

 

Carolina for 32OA + Morrow + KK

 

NYR for 24OA + Schneider + late pick

 

 

As great as Miller has been under Tocchet, some of these are tempting. Management would never do it because it trends towards more of a rebuild but boy, with this draft class, that's a heck of a rebuild. Obviously with the Hronek deal we're going the other way but you can't help to think what this team could have been like if we just sold Bo and Miller for one of the above packages and did a mini rebuild.

 

We could be sitting here with Miller + Bo for a combined 11OA, 18OA, Raty, Beauvillier, (say we deal with WSH), 8OA and 40OA pick and our own 43 OA. We could easily draft Reinbacher and Dvorsky with the two top picks, a decent defenceman like Strbak with the 18OA and then a guy like Lindstein (hopefully) and Willander. I know it's defence-heavy but we get Raty in the Bo deal. Suddenly, turn two top-6 centers in their prime into two future top-6 two-way centers, one future star defenceman (Reinbacher), another possible future star but likely solid top-4 guy (Strbak) and a flyer on most likely two future top-4 Swedish D-men. That's an entire new core with just two trades.

 

Instead (and I've proposed this too elsewhere) I wouldn't be surprised or particularly mad if we even trade our 1st for a solid young shutdown defenceman to be honest - it's just a completely different direction we're going in.

I think the reports were our price for Miller was (still is) two firsts and Pittsburgh didn’t get there. I’m sure Allvin wants a return that is either a younger centre who can take on Miller’s minutes or the draft capital to use to trade for that guy. Much like what Allvin did with Bo to steal Hronek. 

[IBatch]

This is a typical borrow from Peter to pay Paul situation.   Moving Miller would create a huge hole.   Miller scoring 60 points and hitting, is actually decent  value for a second line UFA... and he's not going to be doing that for a couple seasons at least.    So we fix our D and find a 3rd line center ... and not even sure it fixes anything.    Zacha isn't going to get 60 points as a second line C.   Maybe 50.    Miller is a swiss army knife.   Yes he comes with some flaws when he tries too hard especially.    When he's on his game, which for sure he's done since Tochett came in,  he's more than just fine at 8.    We aren't going to find a free agent to do this job for cheap.   I'd much rather we just go with the devil we know etc ...  Plus unlike some, I like Miller.    And never saw this Miller vs Horvat stuff either ... would have liked to keep both.   That said, and know it's only been a couple months, management for sure so far looks like they did the right trade.   Horvats salary is way too high.   And he hasn't done much of anything yet to earn that in NYI.  

 

IF we go here, how the heck are we going to have two lines next year?   Or in the future... To me it makes way more sense to trade Brock.   Use his salary to find a suitable 3C.     

 

Our D.   Yes.   It's sad as is.    Not good enough.   Hronek has played 4 games or so, and injured.    Let's see what he can do.     And trade a winger this summer.   If we can trade a winger, to free up cap or make a hockey trade, plus sign EP to his 8 year monstrosity,  that's a decent off-season.   Draft a D this year. 

 

Edit: Provost kudos for bringing this back in a reasonable way.    Just curious what your plan would be next though.   We wouldn't have the cash to plug the Miller hole via free agency, and well we all know that usually means your not getting full value, blue chip guys come at a premium once they get there.     To me Miller has more than done enough to earn some respect and endearment from the fanbase.   Over a PPG guy getting 5.35ish...and doesn't seem like the type that would be happy to rest on his laurels either.   Wants to win a cup, and wants to win a cup in Vancouver.   What more could we ask from this guy?   Not much IMO.  He's a leader, cares mostly what the guys in the room feel about him (which I take no issue with, our media and fanbase isn't exactly the greatest at times, especially when times aren't good throwing jerseys on the ice - puke, don't remember that ever happening in the Messier era)... 

 

Think with some minor tweaks on the wings, our cap should fall into place.    A lot is riding on OEL playing to his ability ... and yes for sure we need a defensive d on the right side.   Carlo is a good prize. 

Edited May 6, 2023 by IBatch