[Speculation] Canucks all in for Jason Zucker

[IBatch]

Just read a lot of posts about JV.   He’s still young and has potential to be a better player and is entering his break out year (year 4 for most that do it).  Do think he needs to go to the net and the dirty areas more, that’s something that power forwards are supposed to do - and when you see guys much smaller doing it with regularity it does seem mystifiing at times.   This is the same guy that stoned Kronwall when he came into hit him - and was fast enough to catch and hit McDavid very early on.   He’s got a decent shot - wheels to spare and there’s nothing wrong with a North South “Iginla, Neely, Bertuzzi “ game if it doesn’t go East or West as soon as someone has positioning on you.  That’s the only thing he has to change to get those extra 5-10 goals - and once that happens doors to juicier assignments and PP time will appear.   Skate right in and park yourself infront of the net get the dirty goals too.  

 

Would love it if he learned how to fight or at least dropped them anyways on occasion - needs to add some bravery to his game to - both to gain respect- stick up for himself and teammates and to get some extra room.  In other words play with even more of an edge.  It’s ok if that never happens - but if the first part never does it’s not likely he will ever be more then a serviceable third liner and eventually will find himself cycled out for a new guy. 

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, Kanukfanatic said:

Huh? That isn't even a little bit correct. Jake's max was 15 goals last year and Ferland's peak was 21.  That means at Ferland's peak he scored 33% more goals than Jake at his peak. So no Jake has not yet approached Ferland's peak.

 

Regardless, hopefully Ferland scores even more playing with either Petey or Bo and as you stated, hopefully Jake brings his game to a new level this year also. We need both of them to have good years for this team to have a shot at the playoffs.

 

Virtanen

 

Ferland

 

I think the point is JV has the potential to still break out.   It’s not like he’s had many opportunities with Johnny Hockey or AHO - like Ferland has, and is significantly younger “percentage” wise over a hockey career.  In other words he’s got a year or maybe two (at most IMO) to figure it all out.   Doubt Ferland is scoring 20 goals with Sutter or rookie AG either, lucky to score 15 I’d bet ...he played with AHO last year and managed two whole more goals.  Not really the best debate.  Ferland is definitely a better all round hockey player at this point and JV could learn a few things from him, but one thing Ferland will never learn from JV is his elite toolbox.  One has probably truly peaked and playing through his last contract - the other has probably not peaked.  

[Ray_Cathode]

2 hours ago, Kanukfanatic said:

Huh? That isn't even a little bit correct. Jake's max was 15 goals last year and Ferland's peak was 21.  That means at Ferland's peak he scored 33% more goals than Jake at his peak. So no Jake has not yet approached Ferland's peak.

 

Regardless, hopefully Ferland scores even more playing with either Petey or Bo and as you stated, hopefully Jake brings his game to a new level this year also. We need both of them to have good years for this team to have a shot at the playoffs.

 

Virtanen

 

Ferland

 

Ferland is 27, Jake is 23.  At 23 years old, Ferland is 4 years older.  Ferland had had 2 goals and 3 assists in the NHL at 23. Lets compare apples with apples, not make $&!# up. Three years ago Ferland had exactly the same points as Virtanen 15G 10A 25 Pts = he was 24, Virtanen was 22 last year.  Lots of room and time for Jake to grow.  That said I hope he gets some time playing with Ferland - that would be a great education for Jake - maybe compress the time frame even more.

[Noseforthenet]

Let's call this for what it is. Ferland has more of a defined role as to what he actually is, which at the moment makes him more valuable than Jake. JV is still trying to find his place or he keeps trying to punch above his weight class into top 6 forward territory. Maybe he gets there or maybe Ferland's tenacity rubs off on Virtanen and they get put on a line together with Beagle and become hell for anyone who's on the ice. Or maybe Gaudette goes in between them and that line becomes chippy and scores a few. TBH, I want to see those two on a line, playing together more than being in the blender, somewhere else or in a role they shouldn't be in.

Edited September 9, 2019 by Noseforthenet

[N4ZZY]

5 hours ago, Ray_Cathode said:

Ferland is 27, Jake is 23.  At 23 years old, Ferland is 4 years older.  Ferland had had 2 goals and 3 assists in the NHL at 23. Lets compare apples with apples, not make $&!# up. Three years ago Ferland had exactly the same points as Virtanen 15G 10A 25 Pts = he was 24, Virtanen was 22 last year.  Lots of room and time for Jake to grow.  That said I hope he gets some time playing with Ferland - that would be a great education for Jake - maybe compress the time frame even more.

I really believe that this season could very well be his breakout season. Could he breach 40 points this year? It's very possible as long as he doesn't have Sutter as his centreman 

 

i'm hoping that JV breaks out and scores 20 plus goals. prove those naysayers wrong, Jake! 

 

 

[hammertime]

18 hours ago, IBatch said:

Just read a lot of posts about JV.   He’s still young and has potential to be a better player and is entering his break out year (year 4 for most that do it).  Do think he needs to go to the net and the dirty areas more, that’s something that power forwards are supposed to do - and when you see guys much smaller doing it with regularity it does seem mystifiing at times.   This is the same guy that stoned Kronwall when he came into hit him - and was fast enough to catch and hit McDavid very early on.   He’s got a decent shot - wheels to spare and there’s nothing wrong with a North South “Iginla, Neely, Bertuzzi “ game if it doesn’t go East or West as soon as someone has positioning on you.  That’s the only thing he has to change to get those extra 5-10 goals - and once that happens doors to juicier assignments and PP time will appear.   Skate right in and park yourself infront of the net get the dirty goals too.  

 

Would love it if he learned how to fight or at least dropped them anyways on occasion - needs to add some bravery to his game to - both to gain respect- stick up for himself and teammates and to get some extra room.  In other words play with even more of an edge.  It’s ok if that never happens - but if the first part never does it’s not likely he will ever be more then a serviceable third liner and eventually will find himself cycled out for a new guy. 

Jannik Hansen

[Chicken.]

17 hours ago, Ray_Cathode said:

Ferland is 27, Jake is 23.  At 23 years old, Ferland is 4 years older.  Ferland had had 2 goals and 3 assists in the NHL at 23. Lets compare apples with apples, not make $&!# up. Three years ago Ferland had exactly the same points as Virtanen 15G 10A 25 Pts = he was 24, Virtanen was 22 last year.  Lots of room and time for Jake to grow.  That said I hope he gets some time playing with Ferland - that would be a great education for Jake - maybe compress the time frame even more.

Plus a million... this fanbase has never had the patience to allow for full development of players to be fulfilled (save for the Sedins.. but there was a lot of criticism in their early years too)

[Ray_Cathode]

On 9/8/2019 at 7:23 AM, DrJockitch said:

While it is always nice to point out the late blooming power forwards, it is not really very reasonable to compare players from two generations ago.  In those days guys barely worked out in the offseason and didn't have the same kind of physical development in junior. 

Kids in elite sport programs now learn about training and nutrition from a very young age.  They are very much professional athletes from 14.  The physical development is much further along at 18 than it often was well into the 20s back when Neely was playing.  

Bertuzzi and Neely are not great comparables.  They were beasts of men.  Jake really isn't that big.  He plays a physical game and skates beautifully.  He has a decent shot but not great hockey sense and passing.  I suspect Jake is getting close to his offensive potential, this is still a very useful player that is built for the playoffs.  Keep in mind his goal scoring is on par with Ferland at this time and we are talking about him as a top 6 winger.  If Jake can increase his physical game he can be a better player than Ferland, and I think that would be a decent goal to start instead of comparing him to arguably the best pure power forward of all time.

It was you who initially made the comparison and now you say its not reasonable???  

As for Cam Neely being a "Beast of a man" - he played at 6'1" 218 pounds.Jake is 6' 1" 226 pounds - I guess Jake must be an even more 'beast of a man'. Bertuzzi was 6'3" 229.  I guess Jake is more compact than Bertuzzi was, being shorter, guess he'll have to eat a couple of big macs to catch up.

[Gurn]

1 hour ago, Ray_Cathode said:

As for Cam Neely being a "Beast of a man" - he played at 6'1" 218 pounds.Jake is 6' 1" 226 pounds - I guess Jake must be an even more 'beast of a man'.

Cam retired 23 years ago, for the most part players have gotten bigger since then. So at 218 back then he was big, but 218 now would most likely make him just a bit bigger than average.

[Kanukfanatic]

3 hours ago, gurn said:

Cam retired 23 years ago, for the most part players have gotten bigger since then. So at 218 back then he was big, but 218 now would most likely make him just a bit bigger than average.

I won't get into either side of this discussion.

 

But 218 now is much heavier than the NHL average of 200 pounds. But the average back then was probably 190.

 

Edit: I was wrong. Average weight in 1990 is same as now. In 1979 it was 190. Yeah Neely was heavy for then....but Jake is heavy for now but not quite as much.

 

https://hockey-graphs.com/2015/02/19/nhl-player-size-from-1917-18-to-2014-15-a-brief-look/

Edited September 10, 2019 by Kanukfanatic

[Gurn]

26 minutes ago, Kanukfanatic said:

Edit: I was wrong. Average weight in 1990 is same as now.

That surprises me quite a bit.

[IBatch]

4 hours ago, gurn said:

Cam retired 23 years ago, for the most part players have gotten bigger since then. So at 218 back then he was big, but 218 now would most likely make him just a bit bigger than average.

Nope.  Guys in the late eighties kept getting bigger and bigger - go check out our Linden teams and see how big they were compared to now - and that’s with Ronning ha ha.   Players have actually gotten smaller - mid nineties to mid 2000’s they were the biggest ever.  

 

That said it doesn’t matter how big a player is, it’s what he does with it and Neely would probably have fed Lucic his lunch in his prime - the league was way, way tougher back then.  

[HOFsedins]

57 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Nope.  Guys in the late eighties kept getting bigger and bigger - go check out our Linden teams and see how big they were compared to now - and that’s with Ronning ha ha.   Players have actually gotten smaller - mid nineties to mid 2000’s they were the biggest ever.  

 

That said it doesn’t matter how big a player is, it’s what he does with it and Neely would probably have fed Lucic his lunch in his prime - the league was way, way tougher back then.  

I agree the league was alot tougher back then in terms of toughness in players. But the league now is way faster and there are way more skillful players which imo I think makes the game alot tougher nowadays.

 

As for the Neely comparison, theres no doubt he would of fed Lucic his lunch in his prime but then again we cant compare a HOF player to Lucic...

Edited September 10, 2019 by HOFsedins

[RowdyCanuck]

48 minutes ago, HOFsedins said:

I agree the league was alot tougher back then in terms of toughness in players. But the league now is way faster and there are way more skillful players which imo I think makes the game alot tougher nowadays.

 

As for the Neely comparison, theres no doubt he would of fed Lucic his lunch in his prime but then again we cant compare a HOF player to Lucic...

Your right there's more skill in today's game but now toughness is the rare thing....

before you would see skill guys go higher in the draft and now you see pretty much anyone that has a chance to become a pwf higher in the draft. 

Heck lucic would get fed by Bert ( I love Bert but his in a tier below Neeley in my books)

[IBatch]

8 hours ago, HOFsedins said:

I agree the league was alot tougher back then in terms of toughness in players. But the league now is way faster and there are way more skillful players which imo I think makes the game alot tougher nowadays.

 

As for the Neely comparison, theres no doubt he would of fed Lucic his lunch in his prime but then again we cant compare a HOF player to Lucic...

Meh.   1987 Canada Cup vs Red Army is still the biggest collection of skilled players ever - don’t be fooled that faster = more skilled.  (JV, Raymond would be all-stars then - Hagelin and a bunch of others too including from other eras).

 

  Even when equalizing the goalies sp - (it’s a lot harder (or tougher ha ha) to make saves standing up and with smaller equipment so I give them a pass) these guys were still producing at a pretty hefty rate.   And when guys that played with them recently retired and were pretty darn good compared to the guys today you know that is just malarkey.    Gretzky and Lemieux kept up with or were better then players when they were in their thirties or close to retirement then and the next generation was in their prime -  Hull, Sakic, Yzerman, Bure, Selanne, Sundin, and guys like Iginla and Thornton and Jagr played through both generations and could play with both - or - Lidstrom didn’t win a Norris until Chelios, Coffey, Borque aged out or retired - and he played with a lot of guys later who are still in the league now (Keith) and they couldn’t win a Norris trophy until he retired.   Even guys like Shanny and Roberts played well against guys that are in the league now (Keith, Crosby, Ovi ) almost before retirement.  I’d say that kids are better prepared then ever and skate better then ever but 31-32 teams compared to 18-21 is a big difference...talent back then was at its peak (golden era of hockey) and played at its best - both violent and beautiful. 

 

Yes the game was slower - but it was rougher  and tougher, and the largest group of talented players ever assembled.   Watch the flyers documentary if you want to see the roughest/toughest it’s even been - hard to believe that even happened, the rule book got a lot bigger with the league attempting to curb them.

 

As far as Lucic getting his lunch fed I meant in a fight of course....it’s not mandatory entrance into the HHOF to be able to do that...

[khay]

18 hours ago, Ray_Cathode said:

It was you who initially made the comparison and now you say its not reasonable???  

As for Cam Neely being a "Beast of a man" - he played at 6'1" 218 pounds.Jake is 6' 1" 226 pounds - I guess Jake must be an even more 'beast of a man'. Bertuzzi was 6'3" 229.  I guess Jake is more compact than Bertuzzi was, being shorter, guess he'll have to eat a couple of big macs to catch up.

Bertuzzi's playing weight during WCE was probably around 240-250 pounds. He decided to shed some weight as he got older when he was playing for Detroit to around 215-230lbs.

 

Anyhow, don't know what you guys are arguing about and I might be wrong but hard to imagine Bert at 229 pounds doing some of the stuff that he did to others.

 

[DrJockitch]

On 9/9/2019 at 4:03 PM, Ray_Cathode said:

It was you who initially made the comparison and now you say its not reasonable???  

As for Cam Neely being a "Beast of a man" - he played at 6'1" 218 pounds.Jake is 6' 1" 226 pounds - I guess Jake must be an even more 'beast of a man'. Bertuzzi was 6'3" 229.  I guess Jake is more compact than Bertuzzi was, being shorter, guess he'll have to eat a couple of big macs to catch up.

I think you are mixing me up with whoever you were arguing with before.  

I am not the one who made the comparison, I came in late in this.

Should have known better than interjecting between two people squabbling about minor points.  

As far as the rest goes I think has been answered since.

 

[Yung1]

On 9/8/2019 at 2:38 PM, Kanukfanatic said:

Huh? That isn't even a little bit correct. Jake's max was 15 goals last year and Ferland's peak was 21.  That means at Ferland's peak he scored 33% more goals than Jake at his peak. So no Jake has not yet approached Ferland's peak.

 

Regardless, hopefully Ferland scores even more playing with either Petey or Bo and as you stated, hopefully Jake brings his game to a new level this year also. We need both of them to have good years for this team to have a shot at the playoffs.

 

Virtanen

 

Ferland

 

a fair and reasonable argument here would site the fact that virtanen is 23 and ferland is 27.

[theo5789]

21 hours ago, Kanukfanatic said:

I won't get into either side of this discussion.

 

But 218 now is much heavier than the NHL average of 200 pounds. But the average back then was probably 190.

 

Edit: I was wrong. Average weight in 1990 is same as now. In 1979 it was 190. Yeah Neely was heavy for then....but Jake is heavy for now but not quite as much.

 

https://hockey-graphs.com/2015/02/19/nhl-player-size-from-1917-18-to-2014-15-a-brief-look/

Now it's probably closer to that weight in actual lean muscle. Back then was more hamburgers, hot dogs and potato chips diet to attribute to the weight.

[Hectic]

17 hours ago, Yung1 said:

a fair and reasonable argument here would site the fact that virtanen is 23 and ferland is 27.

that's an awesome statistic and find