[Discussion] The Canucks Zone Entry/Breakout

[Canucklehead73]

My two cents... a LOT of teams use the neutral zone drop pass to suck in the forecheck. Why? because it's an effective tactic to break the trap. People implying the Canucks are stupid for using the ploy are beating a dead horse imho.

[Rex425]

Let's see how we do this year. If we make the playoffs, that means that Willie for the most part did a solid job. If we don't, and we see the same problems I would think he would be fired or be on the hot seat. Travis green definitely is the front runner if Willie is fired.

[Alflives]

3 hours ago, Borvat said:

 

I like Willie and think he is a stand up guy.  But being an NHL coach isn't easy or forgiving.  He just seems out of his depth and I think his players must realize it too.  I just don't see a confidence level.  I'm just happy Travis Green is still around. I hope they don't leave this until some poor player moves/decisions are made because of it. 

We JB go to Green or Jarvis?

[BlackBeard]

Transition is difficult, when lots of our guys relies too much on chip and chase and it's sad because that is how talented the nucks are most of the times.

[nuck-lifer]

13 minutes ago, Alflives said:

We JB go to Green or Jarvis?

 

Green should be a shoe in for the job I would think, he know the systems, many of the players, has the respect,  and will be gone next year to another team if he's not promoted.

Which adds just a bit more pressure the WD eh?

[Salacious Crumb]

4 hours ago, Alflives said:

I think you're bang on that WD is in over his head, he knows it, and he is 'real' worried about being fired.  Some of his comments have been a lot sharper than before, especially last night.  He said some guys up the lineup better beware of their jobs, because there are guys pushing for those spots.  He said there is real competition for spots. He knows he's gotta win out of the gate, or he's done.  Now, how long does he last?  I'm saying he is gone before 20 games.

This is the 3rd year of JBs plan (3rd year of 5 year contract). If the team underperforms his only play is to sack the 'stache in order to try and save his own job for another year.

 

Strongly suspect WD knows this.

 

This is the pivotal year in JBs contract as this time next year he will either have been extended or fired. This and some of the player battles coming into the end of camp are shaping this season up as a fun one to watch. Yeah some predict us to finish with 65 points, but can't wait 'til we finish a lot closer to 95 than 65.

[Fateless]

2 hours ago, alfstonker said:

 

Willie's not telling them to go out and take too many men penalties. - Regardless, he is in charge of the bench and it is his responsibility to make sure the bench understands who is to go on the ice and when. The fact that the penalties are consistent and frequent points to him not having clear communication with the players.

 

There is nothing wrong with the drop pass if it is done right, I saw a lot of it in the WC of Hockey. He is not in charge of personnel. - He is in charge of ice-time. Explain to me why Dorsett and Prust had the most ice-time on our team in multiple games last season?

 

He played 8 rookies last season  - how many teams played more? - As I said, he improved as the season went on - the issue was at the start of the season.

 

So given the above circumstances, how many coaches who were available would have fared better? - We won't know because we didn't try. I honestly think pretty much anyone could have coached the team better last season.

^

[JM_]

1 hour ago, Alflives said:

We JB go to Green or Jarvis?

 

Probably go with Jarvis to close out the year and start fresh with Green I would think. 

[khay]

3 hours ago, S'all Good Man said:

 

Thats why I'm an advocate of having Hansen as our 4th line RW. Yes we may lose some offence initially on paper based on last year, but the creativity you're talking about might be found with our top 3 line RWs as Loui, Virtanen and Rodin. 

 

I'd also like to see that Edler-Stecher thing on the PP given a shot. 

 

I also think a 4th line of Dorsett/Burr-Gaunce-Hansen could be the best 4th line in the West and give other teams possession fits. 

 

 

I like everything you are saying, but Dorsett isn't exactly known for puck possession and Burrows is getting old and can't seem to protect the puck well anymore to be able to keep the cycle going... Gaunce and Hansen, I agree would make a strong 4th line. 

 

C: Henrik-Bo-Sutter-Gaunce

LW: Daniel-Baertschi-Granlund-Burrows/Dorsett/Labate

RW: Eriksson-Rodin-Virtanen-Hansen

 

Solid lineup from top to bottom.

 

 

 

 

[luckylager]

Their zone entry has sucked in preseason because all entries, save a few, have been initiated by forwards (LW and C)because our D (generally)is still highly suspect as puck movers.

 

Also, we haven't iced any quality RW's this preseason.... lending to your always entering L side..

 

We've gotten a good look at our "depth" thus far, and it isn't pretty.

 

[GB5]

9 hours ago, Jamie Huscroft said:

Like many, if not all of you, I've been watching the preseason games this year a little closer than normal. Whether you're watching to see if any of the PTO's can earn a spot, or to see how close Juolevi is, or if Rodin is the real deal and will make the team this year, there is one thing that I've noticed that has bothered me to no end. 

 

The Canucks ability to enter the offensive zone effectively, or should I say inability to enter the offensive zone? Maybe I'm way off on this and there is data supporting postives in their zone entry, I'm not sure. I'd be curious to see it, but from the games I've seen (all but the first in San Jose) it seems like Vancouver is hellbent on entering the zone on the left side. Whether it be a quick chip and chase, or a ring around from the right side, it seems like Vancouver is beating this to death and not only is it not working, but other teams quickly figure this out, hampering the Canucks ability to enter the zone effectively and generate decent scoring chances. 

 

Has anyone else noticed this? Is this poor coaching? Is the lack of ability to gain entry in what appears to be their preferred method of zone entry due to the lack of speed the team has? 

 

 

Can't really disagree. It seems like Willie's in-game management is often limited to shuffling the lines instead of adapting to changing the tactics within the game.

[luckylager]

4 hours ago, Canucklehead73 said:

My two cents... a LOT of teams use the neutral zone drop pass to suck in the forecheck. Why? because it's an effective tactic to break the trap. People implying the Canucks are stupid for using the ploy are beating a dead horse imho.

Exactly. Perfect for teams that can't generate enough speed while entering, and skating through, the neutral zone. 

 

JB's been working hard on getting faster, hope we see less drop passes.

[hlinkas wrister]

9 hours ago, Fateless said:

Let's be honest. This team has lacked a good coach since Vigneault was make the scapegoat. This team could be a lot better with a different head coach at the helm. The systems that Willie uses, the continual too many men penalties, the continued existence of the drop pass, the continued deployment of poorly playing veterans over up and coming rookies (granted this one has gotten better), and the lack of any proactive change to fix these issues has proven to me that Willie is NOT a long-term coaching option for this team.

 

I don't know how to fix all these problems, but its clear Willie doesn't know how to either.

 

To be fair, in WD's first season the too many men penalties were a real issue- the Canucks led the league in bench minors. Last year though they cut the amount in half (16 down to 9) and they finished middle of the pack- better than Quennville and Babcock (if you want to follow the narrative that those penalties are attributable to the head coaches).  

[alfstonker]

8 hours ago, Fateless said:

^

Regardless, he is in charge of the bench and it is his responsibility to make sure the bench understands who is to go on the ice and when. The fact that the penalties are consistent and frequent points to him not having clear communication with the players.

 

These players are a mixture of PTOs AHL and prospects. That is not the norm and that is leading to confusion. How many too many men did Vancouver have compared to the other teams in similar situations. Unless you know that then your point is spurious. Too many men happens to all coaches, I saw it frequently in the WC of Hockey. This is pre-season where you iron out the wrinkles, not get your pants in a knot.

 

He is in charge of ice-time. Explain to me why Dorsett and Prust had the most ice-time on our team in multiple games last season?

 

Regarding Dorsett and Prust, how many games was it, what was the make up of the team and what were the lines they were out against and how many goals did they give up when they were on the ice? 

All those things are factors which you haven't a clue about. Dorsett and Prust were actually 2 of our better performers (as was Cracknell) before Prust was injured.

 

 As I said, he improved as the season went on - the issue was at the start of the season.

 

Did it ever occur to you he "improved" as you put it because the rookies and new faces improved and started to play to the systems. That is certainly what I saw.

 

We won't know because we didn't try. I honestly think pretty much anyone could have coached the team better last season.

 

That is a puerile statement which could apply to 20 teams in the league I bet and that doesn't even acknowledge the injuries (many to key players) while ignoring his rookie season.

Anyway, Babcock didn't and he arguably had better players throughout, fewer injuries and better/more seasoned prospects to replace these injuries.

 

[JM_]

11 hours ago, khay said:

 

I like everything you are saying, but Dorsett isn't exactly known for puck possession and Burrows is getting old and can't seem to protect the puck well anymore to be able to keep the cycle going... Gaunce and Hansen, I agree would make a strong 4th line. 

 

C: Henrik-Bo-Sutter-Gaunce

LW: Daniel-Baertschi-Granlund-Burrows/Dorsett/Labate

RW: Eriksson-Rodin-Virtanen-Hansen

 

Solid lineup from top to bottom.

 

 

 

 

 

I'm an optimist - I'm hoping Burr can get some of that old form back if not on scoring at least on possession. If he can't its pretty hard to justify his roster spot. 

 

[Googlie]

6 hours ago, alfstonker said:

He is in charge of ice-time. Explain to me why Dorsett and Prust had the most ice-time on our team in multiple games last season?

 

Regarding Dorsett and Prust, how many games was it, what was the make up of the team and what were the lines they were out against and how many goals did they give up when they were on the ice? 

All those things are factors which you haven't a clue about. Dorsett and Prust were actually 2 of our better performers (as was Cracknell) before Prust was injured.

 

 

 

Exactly ... and pre-injury those 2 made McCann briefly one of the better snipers in the league

[DIBdaQUIB]

Consistently good zone entries rely on speed through the neutral zone.  Speed through the neutral zone requires efficient exits from the d zone with speed.  This requires D who can consistently and effectively get the puck up ice to forwards moving at speed.  Vancouver has sucked at this for years while Chicago has probably been the best at executing it.

 

Much of it is the talent you have to work with but it also comes down to attitude and philosophy.  Chicago uses offense to keep teams off balance.  They "cheat" with forward breaking out of the zone early to create space for their D to move the puck up. Risk/Reward is their plan and it works.  Yes they have some great "horses" but every line basically plays that way so it is coaching that makes it the team's "style".

 

WD is conservative and stresses Defense first.  Players (rookies in particular) who take offensive chances that lead to opportunities the other way, find themselves on the bench.  This breeds a conservative approach in all areas of the ice where no one wants to push the envelope for fear of being benched.  This "philosophy" isn't necessarily wrong but it does lead to more of an Arizona (of the past) style of play.  Even after Bo showed much offensive promise last year, WD stated he saw Bo as more of a shut down center.  With Sutter in the fold, how many "shut down" guys do you need on a team that struggles to score?  Conversely, Winnipeg just stated that all they are asking of their new star rookie (Laine) is to score goals for now.  No pressure to be the 200 foot complete player to start his career.  He will make mistakes that will cost goals but he will learn how to score in the NHL. 

 

I believe it was JB who said that player , this year, will be encouraged to create chances offensively.  That he has to come out and say that, would appear to indicate that senior management is driving that bus and WD is being told how to coach.  It will be interesting to see how that develops and how WD reacts when chances the other way are created due to over-aggressive offensive play.

 

[Jamie Huscroft]

4 hours ago, DIBdaQUIB said:

That he has to come out and say that, would appear to indicate that senior management is driving that bus and WD is being told how to coach.

 

The fact he's being told how to coach and it's being made public I think tells you where WD stands with the team right now. 

 

I never understood the hype for him, and don't understand now why he is the coach. His deployment has been mind boggling to say the least. I don't just mean in the preaseason this year (Dorsett seeing more OT ice than Rodin?) but in general. I think he's a 20 game slow start away from losing his job.  

[Borvat]

23 hours ago, Alflives said:

We JB go to Green or Jarvis?

 

I would think that Green would get the nod, especially after being considered for other jobs that have recently come up.  If they didn't Green may want to move on.  Also, Jarvis would be a good guy to have behind the bench to help with the transition.   I think Green has earned the opportunity.

[Davathor]

If I see Edler doing that drop pass in the neutral zone this season I'm going to puke