Elias Pettersson | Quinn Hughes - Contract Discussion Thread

[qwijibo]

9 minutes ago, VegasCanuck said:

Things I'd like to see change in the next CBA:

 

Lower maximum salary for one player to 12% of cap from 20% (really only effects about 1% of the players)

Increase minimum salary to 950k (effects a LOT of players)

Increase Rookie maximum contract to 1 million plus bonuses

Maximum 4 year contract term for 2nd contract with a maximum salary of 10% of cap

Maximum contract length reduced to 7 years for teams resigning and 6 for UFA's

College players remain the property of the team that drafted them, unless released by that team.

 

I think this would lead to a more competitive league. Look at what happened in Toronto (yes they based the contracts on the idea that the cap would continue to climb). You'd have all 3 guys under 10 million, (not that I want to specifically help Toronto).

 

For teams developing, it would leave more on the table for support guys as this "should" generally create more balanced salary within the teams.

 

Thoughts?  

You’re asking players to give up a lot of potential income.  I don’t see them accepting the bulk of those.  You’re asking for a long strike. 

[204CanucksFan]

1 hour ago, I.Am.Ironman said:

People aren't saying that he isn't going to get paid, but the question is 'how much'. He's obviously a top tier player; no one is disputing that. The most important factor to success of a team is having a balanced cap. If EP is serious about winning like he says, then he should realize that he can't be getting $10M/year. Now this delay could just be the agent so fans need to be careful about creating a villain out of Petey because we don't have the facts.

 

Makar scored at a point per game pace as a defenceman in his contract year. Marner, even though overpaid, scored 94 points in his contract year and had 3 full seasons (77, 82, 82). Pettersson has yet to put in a full season and his production decreased in his contract year. So Pettersson is definitely below both Marner and Makar, especially in a flat cap world. How valuable they are to their teams is subjective and irrelevant. I would argue that Chabot has a larger impact on the success of the Sens than that of Makar on the Avs, that doesn't mean that Chabot deserves more money than Makar. It's the league wide comparisons and objective data that will have a larger impact on determining value.

 

As for Brady Tkachuk.. he hasn't signed it yet. The offer was "believed" to be 8x8. I would be signing that if I were him, I don't know what he is thinking about. It is an over payment at this stage in his career.... if true.

 

I maintain that EP40 should be somewhere between Barzal and Aho. There is still a week before training camp, hopefully they are both done before then.

I'm getting really tired of hearing about how Pettersson "has yet to put in a full season" ad nauseum. He only missed  12 games in his first two seasons and only missed 1 game in his sophomore season. It's not like it was his fault that Covid shut the league down before the 2019-20 season ended. And as for his "struggles" in the last season, he may of had a slow start to the year but he still put up 19 points in his last 18 games before the injury. Not to mention he was absolutely snake bit last season, his 0.3 posts/crossbars hit per game last season leads the league by a wide margin (and honestly, saying he only hit iron 8 times seems low by at least 4 or 5)

 

Im not suggesting this means he deserves a Marner level contract but, then again, Marner doesn't deserve a Marner level contract. It's just a terrible contract. Something just a bit above the Barzal contract seems to be fair market value as he has outperformed Barzal during their respective ELCs.

[I.Am.Ironman]

3 minutes ago, 204CanucksFan said:

I'm getting really tired of hearing about how Pettersson "has yet to put in a full season" ad nauseum. He only missed  12 games in his first two seasons and only missed 1 game in his sophomore season. It's not like it was his fault that Covid shut the league down before the 2019-20 season ended. And as for his "struggles" in the last season, he may of had a slow start to the year but he still put up 19 points in his last 18 games before the injury. Not to mention he was absolutely snake bit last season, his 0.3 posts/crossbars hit per game last season leads the league by a wide margin (and honestly, saying he only hit iron 8 times seems low by at least 4 or 5)

 

Im not suggesting this means he deserves a Marner level contract but, then again, Marner doesn't deserve a Marner level contract. It's just a terrible contract. Something just a bit above the Barzal contract seems to be fair market value as he has outperformed Barzal during their respective ELCs.

My mistake he did put in a full season in his second year. But he has missed considerable time and it is a concern, as is his point/game decline. Snake bitten or not, he didn't score. We all love Petey but we can't over pay him if we want to contend for the cup. That doesn't mean we are clamoring for him to be low balled, the kid is a star and deserves to be paid appropriately. I'd be happy with 7.5-8M x 8 years and so should Petey if he wants the Canucks to be contenders.

[204CanucksFan]

9 minutes ago, I.Am.Ironman said:

My mistake he did put in a full season in his second year. But he has missed considerable time and it is a concern, as is his point/game decline. Snake bitten or not, he didn't score. We all love Petey but we can't over pay him if we want to contend for the cup. That doesn't mean we are clamoring for him to be low balled, the kid is a star and deserves to be paid appropriately. I'd be happy with 7.5-8M x 8 years and so should Petey if he wants the Canucks to be contenders.

I would love that contract as well. Especially since of you want to go long term with Petey his comparable stops being Barzal and probably starts being along the lines of Brayden Point.

[Alflives]

18 minutes ago, I.Am.Ironman said:

My mistake he did put in a full season in his second year. But he has missed considerable time and it is a concern, as is his point/game decline. Snake bitten or not, he didn't score. We all love Petey but we can't over pay him if we want to contend for the cup. That doesn't mean we are clamoring for him to be low balled, the kid is a star and deserves to be paid appropriately. I'd be happy with 7.5-8M x 8 years and so should Petey if he wants the Canucks to be contenders.

Petey is going to get 7.5-8 for a bridge.  Likely 7.5 x 3.  If we are getting him for 8 years it’s going to be 9.5 per.  

[King Heffy]

1 hour ago, qwijibo said:

You’re asking players to give up a lot of potential income.  I don’t see them accepting the bulk of those.  You’re asking for a long strike. 

There's a lot more guys making around minimum salary than who would be affected negatively.

[qwijibo]

29 minutes ago, King Heffy said:

There's a lot more guys making around minimum salary than who would be affected negatively.

Those ideas are still taking things away from the players.  They love that. 

[VegasCanuck]

2 hours ago, qwijibo said:

You’re asking players to give up a lot of potential income.  I don’t see them accepting the bulk of those.  You’re asking for a long strike. 

This is asking 1% of the players to give up potential income. The other 99% make more. There's no change in the cap other than how it's distributed.

 

I think the overwhelming majority of players would be okay with this.

[-Vintage Canuck-]

 

[86Viking]

2 hours ago, 204CanucksFan said:

I'm getting really tired of hearing about how Pettersson "has yet to put in a full season" ad nauseum. 

okay, how about this...In his contract year he missed over half the season and started of real slow. Those 2 things combined should not be screaming 9-12m a year contract imo. Paying him more than Barzal would be a mistake on a bridge deal imo. 

 

Brayden Point had 92 pts in his contract year of his ELC, he signed a 3 year deal for 6.75m. Far more productive contract year than Petey obviously

[86Viking]

24 minutes ago, -Vintage Canuck- said:

 

If true, have to think 1 of Horvat or Miller are gone when their contracts are up if we have Boeser's new deal next off season and EP and QH in 2-3 years time as well. Be interesting to see what Bo and JT ask for when its time for them to re up before UFA...if they want to stay that is

[204CanucksFan]

3 minutes ago, Canuckster86 said:

okay, how about this...In his contract year he missed over half the season and started of real slow. Those 2 things combined should not be screaming 9-12m a year contract imo. Paying him more than Barzal would be a mistake on a bridge deal imo. 

 

Brayden Point had 92 pts in his contract year of his ELC, he signed a 3 year deal for 6.75m. Far more productive contract year than Petey obviously

Pettersson has a better career points per game than Point. Point has also only played 2 out of 5 full seasons and his points per game has dropped each season since his contract year when he signed his bridge and yet TB still extended him at $9.5 × 8.

 

Like I've said many times I believe Pettersson will sign a  bridge contract in the $7.5 - 8 mil × 3 contract, but if you want to sign him to an 8 year deal market value is a lot closer to the $9 - 9.5 mil range.

[qwijibo]

54 minutes ago, VegasCanuck said:

This is asking 1% of the players to give up potential income. The other 99% make more. There's no change in the cap other than how it's distributed.

 

I think the overwhelming majority of players would be okay with this.

You’re taking away term, you’re taking away opportunities to earn more when they’re younger by limiting second contracts to a lower percentage.  We’re talking about a sport where an injury can end your career in a moment.  You’re asking every player to be limited in a way that they currently aren’t. That’s giving up something of value.  Giving them a slight bump on the league minimum isn’t going to make up for what you’re taking away.  The players didn’t even want to agree to a 50/50 revenue split. How do you think they’ll react to the owners asking them to put a significant cap on their earnings. Also.  If you’re capping the earning ceiling on 2nd contract how many multi-year contracts do you think players will sign? None. Their agents would be idiots to let them lock in long term. They’ll sign a 1 year deal then swing for the fence. 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, 204CanucksFan said:

I would love that contract as well. Especially since of you want to go long term with Petey his comparable stops being Barzal and probably starts being along the lines of Brayden Point.

You had me until you mentioned Brayden Point. 

There aren't many comparables to Point, he's just head and shoulders above Petey and almost everyone in the league. 

 

We have to realize that Petey is not in the top 10 forwards in the league. 

 

I do see how you can argue for him to get a deal comparable to Barzal. Petey might have slightly better PPG but Barzal has been more durable and his PPG is severely affected by the Islanders style of play under Barry Trotz. In fact if you look at their numbers compared to their teammates, I would argue that Barzal has the more impressive numbers. 

[knucklehead91]

3 hours ago, I.Am.Ironman said:

My mistake he did put in a full season in his second year. But he has missed considerable time and it is a concern, as is his point/game decline. Snake bitten or not, he didn't score. We all love Petey but we can't over pay him if we want to contend for the cup. That doesn't mean we are clamoring for him to be low balled, the kid is a star and deserves to be paid appropriately. I'd be happy with 7.5-8M x 8 years and so should Petey if he wants the Canucks to be contenders.

Petey scored at almost the exact same rate in his first 2 seasons.

2018-19 .39gpg 

2019-20 .40gpg

2020-21 .38gpg

 

Keep in mind Vancouver played 18 games in 30 days to start the season and 30 games in less than 50 days I think? Fatigue is definitely a contributing factor, plus no real training camp/pre-season. Sure everyone battled the same training camp/pre-season hurdles to prepare for the season and hit the ground running, but no one had the same scheduling as the Canucks and I did a huge breakdown of the whole season a little while back. Perhaps the scheduling and insane amount of hockey without proper preparation is what led to Peteys wrist being buggered up?
 

Snake bitten or not…he did have a wrist issue that ended his season. He was obviously battling a wrist issue throughout the season and played through it for a short time. Not to mention posts do not count as a shot on goal and were a mere inch or 2 away from going in. So his shooting % would skyrocket had they gone in. You are correct, Petey was ‘snakebitten’, but he was not slumping. Being snakebitten isnt a terrible thing, its a sign the guy is playing well and getting chances, hes just having bad luck and as we all know, luck changes and he will light the lamp and when he does, the monkey is off his back. If he was slumping (playing poorly) he wouldnt be getting chances and that is more concerning than a guy thats having bad luck. You can laugh a bit at a guy whos snake bitten and is ringing the iron, hitting a stick or the goalie is making an unreal save. Its like “oh god another one lmao this guy cant catch a break” 

when a guy is slumping, there is nothing to remotely laugh or joke about, he is playing purely like sh1t

 

https://www.vancouverisawesome.com/canucks-hockey/elias-pettersson-is-hitting-more-posts-and-crossbars-than-anyone-in-nhl-history-3449579

 

 

So had those 6 posts in his first 12 games gone in, he would have been near the top of the league in goals quite early.

Petey has a pretty insane shooting % through his first 3 seasons. 17.6 shooting%

 

Ovechkin’s career shooting % is 12.7% and he’s only ever been above 15% twice in his entire career.

 

Matthews is 16.2%

McDavid is 15.2%
Draisaitl is 17.1% 

 

Im not saying Pettersson is going to put up Ovi, Matthews, Draisaitl or McDavid numbers, but he picks his shots with a ton of accuracy and better accuracy than a lot of guys in the league. He may very well put up 40 goals in the next few seasons and I feel like he has the potential to put up 40+ a few times in his career. 
 

 

But yes, we need a team friendly deal and if we could lock him and Hughes up for 8x8 each we would be laughing. The cap will rise in the next few years and having them both locked down at 8x8 would be a ridiculous deal in 4-5 years when the cap begins to climb. We would be able to sign some real gud players
 

[UKNuck96]

4 hours ago, qwijibo said:

You’re asking players to give up a lot of potential income.  I don’t see them accepting the bulk of those.  You’re asking for a long strike. 

While I don’t agree with all of the proposal outlined, it’s actually reasonably thought out.

 

at the moment the higher threshold and salary inflation only hurts those in the middle. It means that you pay the top tier and then have scraps to plug the gaps for lower wages. Reducing the value at the top and brining the base up would give a lot more to the majority of the players. It would also allow for a wider spread of salary meaning lower tier players would likely see not just a minimum contract increase but a second and third contract increase as well rather then getting squeezed.

 

there may be an appetite for that in the NHLPA because if you look at the fine situation and the debacle that is supplementary discipline, the fines are set in the CBA and really do not deter a player from being dangerous. The NHLPA could  stamp out goo wet by agreeing the punishing values. However that hurts the majority of their base so they won’t do it. That’s why lowering the tiers at the top provided enough was redistributed towards to lower end may actually be liked.

[grandmaster]

2 hours ago, -Vintage Canuck- said:

 

JB “Trying to figure out how to get get to some common ground”.
 

There is a lot to be said about that. It infers that there is no current common ground whatsoever and that contract negotiations seem to be somewhat of a failure to this point. 
 

I knew that JP Barry being agent for both of them was a concern. This guy has always been ruthless.  A bridge deal is all we could hope for at this time.

[HockeyHarry]

So what player do Canucks trade so we can sign these two? Need cap space , you can’t lowball EP40 or Quinn. You gotta pay your top 2 franchise players.

 

Pearson? Sutter? but we just signed them, Myers hes needed as hes a Big Righty. Dont wanna traded any top 6 guys.

Motte maybe the only guy that can be traded….Who else is there? 

[Alflives]

6 hours ago, -Vintage Canuck- said:

 

Bridge deals are definitely the way to go.  Keep the cap cost as low as possible.  

[bbllpp]

1 hour ago, Alflives said:

Bridge deals are definitely the way to go.  Keep the cap cost as low as possible.  

Yes, paying Hughes 8M in the short term hurts the team as much as OEL in the long term.  The opportunity cost is a depth player like Staal on a one year this year and trading at pennies on the dollar for cap space to provide raises for Boeser, Rathbone, Motte and OJ next summer, keeping or replacing Sutter and replacing Halak next summer let alone the following with Miller and Horvat up with only Hamonic coming off (who’ll need to be replaced) to provide cap for them

 

Anything more than 14M for both then we are in a cap crunch until Myers comes off in 3 years and we’ll be letting assets go over the next two years to keep the core together.  Personally our D is just not good enough so I’d be moving Miller (crazy to sign him to big money at 30) to address the right side sooner rather than later and improving our cap position at the same time