Why has the conversation about prospects changed?

[CallAfterLife]

About 5 years ago the conversations on these boards went as follows: The Canucks need scoring so Hunter Shinkaruk should be called up. The Canucks need a puck moving defenceman so Jordan Subban should be called up. The Canucks need a physicality so Alex Grenier should be called up. 

 

The Canucks literally have better versions of Shunkaruk, Subban and Grenier in their system right now. 

 

Hoglander is a better version of Shinkaruk. Hoglander may be shorter but his fitness level is incredible and he isn't afraid to play a gritty game and battle for pucks. His hands are arguably better than Shinkaruk's as well. Kole Lind isn't as flashy as Hoglander in terms of his puck skills but he's even feistier. That's not to say he doesn't have good puck skills though. Lind basically plays the way we all want Virtanen to play. Lind isn't as fast as Virtanen but he works to forecheck and hit. Lind also has better hockey IQ and can make plays with his teammates. Plus Lind has some major character and determination. He had a disappointing first season in Utica and put in the work in the off season to make himself a better player. Grenier was a big guy that never quite figured out how to use his size to dominate opponents. Lind may be a bit smaller but he isn't afraid to punch above his weight. 

 

The Canucks now have Rafferty and Juolevi. Subban was an elite power play QB but could never figure out how to defend and transition the puck up ice. Rafferty and Juolevi are both able to do this. Rafferty prefers to skate the puck up ice himself. Juolevi prefers to hang on to the puck and wait for a good pass to open up. These we're skills that Subban never quite managed. 

 

People are forgetting that just two years ago Juolevi was his team's best defenceman in the Liiga playoffs. He's struggled with injuries that have taken away from his mobility but hopefully now that he's healthy he can develop into a top 4 defenceman. I can easily see Juolevi developing into a Jonas Bordin type of defenceman. He may not always be a factor on the score sheet but he'll do a bunch of little things to ensure that his teammates do score. 

 

Hoglander, Lind, Rafferty and Juolevi are great prospect but now that the Canucks are winning there's no confidence in them. 

 

When the Canucks were losing the mentality around prospects was completely different. Fans just wanted them to be played for the sake of playing them in order to see something new. Now that the Canucks are winning and have a better set of prospects that have been properly developed suddenly they aren't good enough. Ridiculous. 

[RonMexico]

 

4 minutes ago, CallAfterLife said:

 

Hoglander, Lind, Rafferty and Juolevi are great prospect but now that the Canucks are winning there's no confidence in them. 

 

When the Canucks were losing the mentality around prospects was completely different. Fans just wanted them to be played for the sake of playing them in order to see something new. Now that the Canucks are winning and have a better set of prospects that have been properly developed suddenly they aren't good enough. Ridiculous. 

 

I think you are reading into something that isn't there.

[PhillipBlunt]

12 minutes ago, CallAfterLife said:

About 5 years ago the conversations on these boards went as follows: The Canucks need scoring so Hunter Shinkaruk should be called up. The Canucks need a puck moving defenceman so Jordan Subban should be called up. The Canucks need a physicality so Alex Grenier should be called up. 

 

The Canucks literally have better versions of Shunkaruk, Subban and Grenier in their system right now. 

 

Hoglander is a better version of Shinkaruk. Hoglander may be shorter but his fitness level is incredible and he isn't afraid to play a gritty game and battle for pucks. His hands are arguably better than Shinkaruk's as well. Kole Lind isn't as flashy as Hoglander in terms of his puck skills but he's even feistier. That's not to say he doesn't have good puck skills though. Lind basically plays the way we all want Virtanen to play. Lind isn't as fast as Virtanen but he works to forecheck and hit. Lind also has better hockey IQ and can make plays with his teammates. Plus Lind has some major character and determination. He had a disappointing first season in Utica and put in the work in the off season to make himself a better player. Grenier was a big guy that never quite figured out how to use his size to dominate opponents. Lind may be a bit smaller but he isn't afraid to punch above his weight. 

 

The Canucks now have Rafferty and Juolevi. Subban was an elite power play QB but could never figure out how to defend and transition the puck up ice. Rafferty and Juolevi are both able to do this. Rafferty prefers to skate the puck up ice himself. Juolevi prefers to hang on to the puck and wait for a good pass to open up. These we're skills that Subban never quite managed. 

 

People are forgetting that just two years ago Juolevi was his team's best defenceman in the Liiga playoffs. He's struggled with injuries that have taken away from his mobility but hopefully now that he's healthy he can develop into a top 4 defenceman. I can easily see Juolevi developing into a Jonas Bordin type of defenceman. He may not always be a factor on the score sheet but he'll do a bunch of little things to ensure that his teammates do score. 

 

Hoglander, Lind, Rafferty and Juolevi are great prospect but now that the Canucks are winning there's no confidence in them. 

 

When the Canucks were losing the mentality around prospects was completely different. Fans just wanted them to be played for the sake of playing them in order to see something new. Now that the Canucks are winning and have a better set of prospects that have been properly developed suddenly they aren't good enough. Ridiculous. 

Subban, Shinkaruk, and Grenier were borderline NHLers at best. Now? They're not even that. 

 

Most fans of the team see that the prospect pool is far deeper with much more legitimate NHL potential talent than before. 

[Fanuck]

24 minutes ago, CallAfterLife said:

 

When the Canucks were losing the mentality around prospects was completely different. Fans just wanted them to be played for the sake of playing them in order to see something new. Now that the Canucks are winning and have a better set of prospects that have been properly developed suddenly they aren't good enough. Ridiculous. 

Lumping all 'Fans' into your made-up stereotype is what is ridiculous. 

[goalie13]

40 minutes ago, CallAfterLife said:

Now that the Canucks are winning and have a better set of prospects that have been properly developed suddenly they aren't good enough. Ridiculous. 

Or, maybe now that the Canucks are winning more, people have more patience to let a prospect mature and develop in the minors rather than throwing them to the wolves in the NHL.

[theo5789]

I think there is still the same crowd that thinks we should plug in all of our prospects right away. These are the same people that think this team will be trash because we will be needing to plug in these players though.

 

Over this time though, Benning has stated he wants prospects to earn their spots and if they do, space will be made for them. The reason why we have some "dead" cap space right now is due to the fact that some of the prospects have responded to this well and have earned spots, thus pushing some signed vets out. The negative crowd will just say "look at all that dead cap space", but the positive crowd will say "look at the prospects that have stepped up into important roles".

 

Now with that said, it goes to show that it's a positive system to create competition for the young players and have them develop another gear to make it. So I can see how some people may be transitioning from the play the young guys route to letting them develop longer. The other aspect is that when you have a better team, spots are filled up and with more limited spots means less room to plug the young players in which allows them to simmer more. We are on the cusp of being in that bubble where we are overflowing with prospects ready to make the jump. Over the next couple of years, we will start seeing this transition to youth as the vet contracts expire. We will see some good young players being moved to fill positional needs as we will have the prospect coverage to make such moves.

 

Just because the quality of our prospects have improved doesn't mean we shouldn't have a developmental system for them to reach their ceilings.

[rychicken]

1 hour ago, CallAfterLife said:

 

 

Hoglander, Lind, Rafferty and Juolevi are great prospect but now that the Canucks are winning there's no confidence in them. 

 

When the Canucks were losing the mentality around prospects was completely different. Fans just wanted them to be played for the sake of playing them in order to see something new. Now that the Canucks are winning and have a better set of prospects that have been properly developed suddenly they aren't good enough. Ridiculous. 

LMAO & ignore list

[brownky]

51 minutes ago, theo5789 said:

I think there is still the same crowd that thinks we should plug in all of our prospects right away. These are the same people that think this team will be trash because we will be needing to plug in these players though.

 

 

There's still a crowd that wants year after year of "chances at the first overall pick".

 

I'm fine with whatever the coaching staff want to do right now. I'd "like" to see what OJ can do for real now that he's healthy and skating/training properly. Rafferty is probably ready to make an appearance, as are the stewing prospects down there. Drafting them to never play them or even give them a chance is stupid.

 

[theo5789]

2 minutes ago, brownky said:

There's still a crowd that wants year after year of "chances at the first overall pick".

 

I'm fine with whatever the coaching staff want to do right now. I'd "like" to see what OJ can do for real now that he's healthy and skating/training properly. Rafferty is probably ready to make an appearance, as are the stewing prospects down there. Drafting them to never play them or even give them a chance is stupid.

 

As long as they've earned that chance, then I'm all for it. It goes beyond just putting up points and the coaching staff both at the NHL level and Utica know the behind the scenes happenings and technical aspects of making the NHL. If a player isn't getting a look, there has to be a reason other than just not giving them a chance.

[Nuxfanabroad]

Likely was a human-psychological aspect at play here.

We often yearn for what is beyond reach, & seemingly unobtainable. By about 2014(for almost a decade) we'd drafted with our scouts, collectively, tragically, displaying the IQ of an ostrich.

 

Enter the man who might sound dopey like an ostrich, but performs the drafting prowess on par with the good karma results of Forrest Gump.

 

Q- How could any of us have trusted this seemingly earnest, yet jarringly awkward speaker, to suddenly start drafting like BillFrEEKIN'Torrey?! & not only that, but have the wisdom to allow this treasured fruit to ripen on the branch?

 

***************************

 

Now here we sit, with a rebuilt squad, including young superstars. Dominant players at all key positions, obtained with NO Lotto, built-in Bettman-scam benefits.

 

AND there's more fine stock in the shelves, that were(in 2014) of course, once barren.

 

All this..yet some folks STILL wanna' pick with nits?!?!!!!

[elvis15]

3 hours ago, rychicken said:

LMAO & ignore list

We'll all get a chuckle after seeing how training camp goes. Benning has literally named Hoglander and Juolevi as players who seem ready to make the jump. We're going to be playing a number of young players this year again, as we have the past several years.

[Lancaster]

It's all about the new shiniest toys. 

Remember when Patrick White was to be the next great sniper, Taylor Ellington to be the next defensive stalwart on the blueline and that Patrick McNally was a steal on the 4th round?  

 

They are the newest and best prospects until they are not.  

[Guest]

4 hours ago, rychicken said:

LMAO & ignore list

Too fast Ry, too fast!  

 

Ya gotta stop living like that man, you'll run out of people to ignore pretty soon! 

[the grinder]

8 hours ago, CallAfterLife said:

About 5 years ago the conversations on these boards went as follows: The Canucks need scoring so Hunter Shinkaruk should be called up. The Canucks need a puck moving defenceman so Jordan Subban should be called up. The Canucks need a physicality so Alex Grenier should be called up. 

 

The Canucks literally have better versions of Shunkaruk, Subban and Grenier in their system right now. 

 

Hoglander is a better version of Shinkaruk. Hoglander may be shorter but his fitness level is incredible and he isn't afraid to play a gritty game and battle for pucks. His hands are arguably better than Shinkaruk's as well. Kole Lind isn't as flashy as Hoglander in terms of his puck skills but he's even feistier. That's not to say he doesn't have good puck skills though. Lind basically plays the way we all want Virtanen to play. Lind isn't as fast as Virtanen but he works to forecheck and hit. Lind also has better hockey IQ and can make plays with his teammates. Plus Lind has some major character and determination. He had a disappointing first season in Utica and put in the work in the off season to make himself a better player. Grenier was a big guy that never quite figured out how to use his size to dominate opponents. Lind may be a bit smaller but he isn't afraid to punch above his weight. 

 

The Canucks now have Rafferty and Juolevi. Subban was an elite power play QB but could never figure out how to defend and transition the puck up ice. Rafferty and Juolevi are both able to do this. Rafferty prefers to skate the puck up ice himself. Juolevi prefers to hang on to the puck and wait for a good pass to open up. These we're skills that Subban never quite managed. 

 

People are forgetting that just two years ago Juolevi was his team's best defenceman in the Liiga playoffs. He's struggled with injuries that have taken away from his mobility but hopefully now that he's healthy he can develop into a top 4 defenceman. I can easily see Juolevi developing into a Jonas Bordin type of defenceman. He may not always be a factor on the score sheet but he'll do a bunch of little things to ensure that his teammates do score. 

 

Hoglander, Lind, Rafferty and Juolevi are great prospect but now that the Canucks are winning there's no confidence in them. 

 

When the Canucks were losing the mentality around prospects was completely different. Fans just wanted them to be played for the sake of playing them in order to see something new. Now that the Canucks are winning and have a better set of prospects that have been properly developed suddenly they aren't good enough. Ridiculous. 

And every year we insert at least a rookie or 2 in the line up gaudette hughes this year , benning has gone on record several times that young players will be injected into the line up  over the next few years  , at least one of the of rafferty ,juolevi or rathibone will compete for a spot. No confidence  then how did juolevi get a start in a playoff game then??? guys need to earn spots not just given a spot , Hoglander needs a training camp first before you just insert him in the lineup , he could be next  Sergei Shrikov for all we know

[ilduce39]

I think I kind of get what you’re saying - people (although I find not so much on this board as other platforms) used to always push hard for young guys to crack the roster.

 

Here we have a tight cap offseason and the talk is all complaining how JB can’t sign vets.. even though guys like Hogs/Pods/Rathbone/Juolevi are likely ready and better than what we had in the Shinkaruk (and earlier) era. 
 

Those prospects + others are a big reason why I’m not overly worried despite the relatively slow start to FA for JB.  I think we’ll see some of them and I’m crossing my fingers they make us forget some of the names we missed out on so far.  
 

FWIW I expect JB to still pull some moves... but knowing our injury luck and Green’s history of playing whoever wins the camp battle means at least one of those guys makes a splash this year. 

Edited October 14, 2020 by ilduce39

[Dr. Crossbar]

Well, I hated it when the conversation changed around Half Sack, and then Phil ... 

 

Oh, wait ... I thought you were talking SOA prospects. 

[IBatch]

On 10/13/2020 at 4:12 PM, theo5789 said:

I think there is still the same crowd that thinks we should plug in all of our prospects right away. These are the same people that think this team will be trash because we will be needing to plug in these players though.

 

Over this time though, Benning has stated he wants prospects to earn their spots and if they do, space will be made for them. The reason why we have some "dead" cap space right now is due to the fact that some of the prospects have responded to this well and have earned spots, thus pushing some signed vets out. The negative crowd will just say "look at all that dead cap space", but the positive crowd will say "look at the prospects that have stepped up into important roles".

 

Now with that said, it goes to show that it's a positive system to create competition for the young players and have them develop another gear to make it. So I can see how some people may be transitioning from the play the young guys route to letting them develop longer. The other aspect is that when you have a better team, spots are filled up and with more limited spots means less room to plug the young players in which allows them to simmer more. We are on the cusp of being in that bubble where we are overflowing with prospects ready to make the jump. Over the next couple of years, we will start seeing this transition to youth as the vet contracts expire. We will see some good young players being moved to fill positional needs as we will have the prospect coverage to make such moves.

 

Just because the quality of our prospects have improved doesn't mean we shouldn't have a developmental system for them to reach their ceilings.

Well said.   All of that and want to add that it’s not like JB has made it particularly difficult for prospects to make the team over the last 5-6 years....Megna, Chaput, Del Zotto, Gagne etc etc.    Now it’s LE, Sutter etc. Motte and AG made the forward group as fringe players ... and the skies the limit for the remaining folks, especially two slots so far still remaining open on the defense.   Do want to say it’s not easy to break in and actually make it - AND to the OP, it’s not like JB didn’t add during the early years, he did...just none of those guys stuck.  Vey, Bear, Goldobin, Granlund...WD’s Megna and Chaput ha ha.    Just because we think all the remaining high end guys are better then Shinkaruk etc doesn’t mean they are, or will do any better then those guys listed above who lasted a couple of seasons...you just never know. 

I do however think both OJ and Rafferty have excellent chances coming their way, and both have the chops to make it work.  

[coolboarder]

On 11/9/2020 at 5:06 AM, IBatch said:

Well said.   All of that and want to add that it’s not like JB has made it particularly difficult for prospects to make the team over the last 5-6 years....Megna, Chaput, Del Zotto, Gagne etc etc.    Now it’s LE, Sutter etc. Motte and AG made the forward group as fringe players ... and the skies the limit for the remaining folks, especially two slots so far still remaining open on the defense.   Do want to say it’s not easy to break in and actually make it - AND to the OP, it’s not like JB didn’t add during the early years, he did...just none of those guys stuck.  Vey, Bear, Goldobin, Granlund...WD’s Megna and Chaput ha ha.    Just because we think all the remaining high end guys are better then Shinkaruk etc doesn’t mean they are, or will do any better then those guys listed above who lasted a couple of seasons...you just never know. 

I do however think both OJ and Rafferty have excellent chances coming their way, and both have the chops to make it work.  

This is what it is supposed to be, make it harder for prospect so that they work hard to improve themselves over the season and off season to develop for a chance to be better than our veterans.  They need to have the hunger of making the team.  That is what Benning has been doing over the years, putting in veterans over their young players.  It is not slight over their ability but needing more hunger to it so that they'd become a better player.   The Oilers have been doing opposite, gifting their prospect a roster spot and the result is not pretty.  There was a lack of hunger to improve themselves expecting to make the team every year without improving themselves.   It is a big contrast between two teams with longer rebuild or a shorter rebuild.  

 

Benning's philosophy has been a spot-on and he is able to find prospects and use them for a trade to entice teams to give away their players that had depth due to cap constraint that forced the transactions in Miller and it has paid off when you have the ability to draft well.  More prospects are getting better and you can use them as a trade bait to get even better player at a reasonable cost or inject them in the line-up that helps the team better overall.  

 

Like I have said in the past in the CDC, you need 6 drafts or 7 seasons to prove themselves as a GM rather than recycle GM once every 3 years because a NHL teams consists of 23-man roster and it takes time to build your team if you are starting from scratch and building your team from the drafting over time and you need average of 2-3 NHLers per draft year for 6 seasons and you get 12-18 potential NHLer from your own draft picks making the team or use trades to get better players under contract or overpays veterans to come here and shelter your prospects from being thrown into the wolves.  Benning has done well.  I'm sure that he is averaging his draft picks that is able to become a NHLer by 3.5 to turn into something by trading away his own picks/prospects to get some help and still churning his picks at the same time which was impressive to say the least.  He is also able to cut loose his mistakes and able to get something out from it. 

[lmm]

4 hours ago, coolboarder said:

This is what it is supposed to be, make it harder for prospect so that they work hard to improve themselves over the season and off season to develop for a chance to be better than our veterans.  They need to have the hunger of making the team.  That is what Benning has been doing over the years, putting in veterans over their young players.  It is not slight over their ability but needing more hunger to it so that they'd become a better player.   The Oilers have been doing opposite, gifting their prospect a roster spot and the result is not pretty.  There was a lack of hunger to improve themselves expecting to make the team every year without improving themselves.   It is a big contrast between two teams with longer rebuild or a shorter rebuild.  

 

Benning's philosophy has been a spot-on and he is able to find prospects and use them for a trade to entice teams to give away their players that had depth due to cap constraint that forced the transactions in Miller and it has paid off when you have the ability to draft well.  More prospects are getting better and you can use them as a trade bait to get even better player at a reasonable cost or inject them in the line-up that helps the team better overall.  

 

Like I have said in the past in the CDC, you need 6 drafts or 7 seasons to prove themselves as a GM rather than recycle GM once every 3 years because a NHL teams consists of 23-man roster and it takes time to build your team if you are starting from scratch and building your team from the drafting over time and you need average of 2-3 NHLers per draft year for 6 seasons and you get 12-18 potential NHLer from your own draft picks making the team or use trades to get better players under contract or overpays veterans to come here and shelter your prospects from being thrown into the wolves.  Benning has done well.  I'm sure that he is averaging his draft picks that is able to become a NHLer by 3.5 to turn into something by trading away his own picks/prospects to get some help and still churning his picks at the same time which was impressive to say the least.  He is also able to cut loose his mistakes and able to get something out from it. 

I think continuously comparing the Canucks and Oilers is a bit of a red herring.

It could be argued that over the past 20 years, there is little to choose between the two.

Both teams have one quality playoff run.

both teams sank to the bottom or near bottom of the league for 3-5 years.

both teams play their high draft picks early, some times with success and sometimes to the detriment of the player.

Both teams have blown up their management structure.

 

The Oilers are a little ahead of the Canucks with players like McD and Drais. they are also behind because they did not settle on solid management until hiring Holland.

Which would you rather, a team with 5 coaches in 5 years, including Kreuger and Quinn or a team with AV, Torts and 3 years of Willie D?

 

I think too much is made of the Oilers playing their picks too early, Draisaitl was sent back to Junior while Virtanen and McCann were not.

Who of Hall, Nuge or Nail would the Canucks have told they would not play after being picked first over all?

 

In the last 20 years both teams have drafted well in about 3 drafts, and been skunked in about 4 drafts, not enough to build a winner either way.

 

Jim has solidified the Canuck drafting, we are about to see if Holland can do the same for the Oilers.

But remember when we all thought Benning would draft Dubois but Columbus got him first, it is only luck that Pettersson and Hughes did not go before we got them.

 

THis past playoff the Canucks had Demko, Guadette and MacEwen not drafted in the first round while the  Oilers had Khaira and Bear

[RWMc1]

Not much has really changed. Canucks media and fans have always played our team members against one another. You just did it with Lind and Virtanen. Others have used Podkolzin and Hoglander and even Toffoli. Many of the past whipping boys are a direct result of it. Fans calling for unproven players has always happened and is still happening. Our prospects are just better now.

 

For example, Edler always had haters but the real hatred ramped up after Pedan won the fastest skater and hardest shot. Then Pedan was being held back and we should have traded Edler for a bag of pucks so we could see what we had in Pedan! Sutter hatred ramped up after he called for Goldobin to grow a pair. The new one is Virtanen.

 

One season Goldobin and Boucher scored by cheating up ice. Fans and media started saying things like they shouldn't have to play the system because we need offence; which goes to show that just because we have a lot of people calling for something doesn't make it the best option.

 

Media and fans crying for things should be taken with a grain of salt!!!