New management worries me

[Canucklehead73]

I have to say that this concept that we should not pay players in their prime, contracts into the 35 year old range because their skills erode and the contact is not worth it.

 

This concept is naive, this is the cost of getting players in their prime, they all want the golden handshake. And there is always someone willing to pay.

 

If you do not show the money you are forever icing teams of potential stars and average players on palatable contracts but no chance of making it deep into the playoffs.

 

The goal is to sign Miller and have him be productive for as much of the contract as possible, if it doesn't work out these contracts are still generally movable or bought out.

 

Gotta pay to play or else you're Ottawa... imho

 

C73 

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, Canucklehead73 said:

I have to say that this concept that we should not pay players in their prime, contracts into the 35 year old range because their skills erode and the contact is not worth it.

 

This concept is naive, this is the cost of getting players in their prime, they all want the golden handshake. And there is always someone willing to pay.

 

If you do not show the money you are forever icing teams of potential stars and average players on palatable contracts but no chance of making it deep into the playoffs.

 

The goal is to sign Miller and have him be productive for as much of the contract as possible, if it doesn't work out these contracts are still generally movable or bought out.

 

Gotta pay to play or else you're Ottawa... imho

 

C73 

would Miller sign a contract for six years (8.5 per) that isn't buy out proof?  I read in one of these threads that players bought out only get 2/3rds of the remaining dollars owed.  So the top guys get the most of their money paid in bonus early to avoid losing a lot at the end.  

If Miller did accept 6 years the majority of his contract would be in bonus up front every summer.  Would Aquilini do that?  If Miller and our owner could agree then when Miller is declining we could trade him to Ottawa or Arizona and they could count 8.5 on their cap while only paying out 1 mil in actual dollars.  

[Harold Drunken]

And how did the previous management make you feel?

[Zhukini]

35 minutes ago, Canucklehead73 said:

I have to say that this concept that we should not pay players in their prime, contracts into the 35 year old range because their skills erode and the contact is not worth it.

 

This concept is naive, this is the cost of getting players in their prime, they all want the golden handshake. And there is always someone willing to pay.

 

If you do not show the money you are forever icing teams of potential stars and average players on palatable contracts but no chance of making it deep into the playoffs.

 

The goal is to sign Miller and have him be productive for as much of the contract as possible, if it doesn't work out these contracts are still generally movable or bought out.

 

Gotta pay to play or else you're Ottawa... imho

 

C73 

Or you end up like the Islanders or Sharks

[combover]

Trajectory is a capped out team with over paid  old vets that still relies to heavily on Goaltending.

 

changes need to happen to help now and the future. 
 

 


 

[Canucklehead73]

1 hour ago, Zhukini said:

Or you end up like the Islanders or Sharks

True enough not every contract works out, you still have to build right, up the middle, in net and defense and ensure the chemistry works. Choose the right people...

 

Both are interesting examples... San Jose has some big ticket players, but can they play defense? Seems not. How stable is their goal tending? Are they a cohesive team?

 

The Islanders are kinda my point to some degree... Anders Lee nets 40 and gets paid, they do not want to show (a 28year old)Tavares the money and he walks, Now Anders Lee cannot break 30 goals. The islanders obviously thought they could replace Tavares with Barzal? (Potential) and it hasn't quite worked out (yet). Some might disrespect Tavares but he hasn't really missed a beat production wise while playing second line minutes. Leadership and Chemistry...?

 

All I am really saying is when players hit their prime, it's usually around 27-28 and if you are not willing to pay up the big ticket 7-8 year contract you will never have star players.

 

If the market for star players is a job security 7-8 year 50-60 mill contract that's the cost of doing business, you earn your money as a GM making the RIGHT calls on these types of contracts, you can't just trade away your good players once they turn 28, you have to step up and make the right call... or else your Ottawa as I said.

 

The owners are their own worst enemy, someone will always show the player the money, so they give all the leverage to the players and their agents... you have to pay to play.

 

Just my take on all the comments about declining skills and anchor contracts...

[RU SERIOUS]

6 hours ago, Canuckster86 said:

Apparently the new management sucks already... I guess evaluating the entire team including coaches etc is the wrong thing to do and they should just make decisions without really getting a grasp of the team as a whole. 

 

Never fail CDC, doesn't matter who the manager, coach or players are some with always whine or disagree with the decisions made...Good thing you are NOT paying any of them though right!?

 

Enjoy the off season of meddling...there is a thing called the outdoors and sunshine, should experience some vitamin D and fresh air instead of over analyzing every single thing the team does or doesn't do!

Well said.   No one should say a peep about JR, Alvin or "The Chipmunk Girls" until we've seen what direction they have in store for the team - especially after having Uncle Jim at the helm for almost a decade of Failure.  They deserve some time & space. 

[lmm]

53 minutes ago, Canucklehead73 said:

True enough not every contract works out, you still have to build right, up the middle, in net and defense and ensure the chemistry works. Choose the right people...

 

Both are interesting examples... San Jose has some big ticket players, but can they play defense? Seems not. How stable is their goal tending? Are they a cohesive team?

 

The Islanders are kinda my point to some degree... Anders Lee nets 40 and gets paid, they do not want to show (a 28year old)Tavares the money and he walks, Now Anders Lee cannot break 30 goals. The islanders obviously thought they could replace Tavares with Barzal? (Potential) and it hasn't quite worked out (yet). Some might disrespect Tavares but he hasn't really missed a beat production wise while playing second line minutes. Leadership and Chemistry...?

 

All I am really saying is when players hit their prime, it's usually around 27-28 and if you are not willing to pay up the big ticket 7-8 year contract you will never have star players.

 

If the market for star players is a job security 7-8 year 50-60 mill contract that's the cost of doing business, you earn your money as a GM making the RIGHT calls on these types of contracts, you can't just trade away your good players once they turn 28, you have to step up and make the right call... or else your Ottawa as I said.

 

The owners are their own worst enemy, someone will always show the player the money, so they give all the leverage to the players and their agents... you have to pay to play.

 

Just my take on all the comments about declining skills and anchor contracts...

 

i always thought the Tavares thing was like Hamhius, when he signed in Vancouver

other teams made good offers, but the player had already chosen where he would play

I don't think you could fault Philly or Nashville for not signing Hamhius

I don't know if there was another reason Tavares left NYI

Some guys just say I am going to free agency

NYI could have been like Vancouver, just losing for too long, (Many Canuck fans think if the Canucks don't make the playoffs nxt year that JT and Bo bolt) maybe they irked JT with the previous contract and he did not wish to negotiate again

[Baratheon]

18 minutes ago, RU SERIOUS said:

Well said.   No one should say a peep about JR, Alvin or "The Chipmunk Girls" until we've seen what direction they have in store for the team - especially after having Uncle Jim at the helm for almost a decade of Failure.  They deserve some time & space. 

Some have preemptively criticized them though lol.  "If they dare move (insert my favorite player) then they have failed regardless of the return we receive because they had the audacity to evaluate things differently from myself."

[lmm]

3 hours ago, Canucklehead73 said:

I have to say that this concept that we should not pay players in their prime, contracts into the 35 year old range because their skills erode and the contact is not worth it.

 

This concept is naive, this is the cost of getting players in their prime, they all want the golden handshake. And there is always someone willing to pay.

 

If you do not show the money you are forever icing teams of potential stars and average players on palatable contracts but no chance of making it deep into the playoffs.

 

The goal is to sign Miller and have him be productive for as much of the contract as possible, if it doesn't work out these contracts are still generally movable or bought out.

 

Gotta pay to play or else you're Ottawa... imho

 

C73 

Here is the thing though

I just looked at Pittsburg, LA, Chicago and Vancouver

the oldest core players to get paid big dough on the first 3 teams were Keith and Brown at 26 years of age

That was when they won their first cup

Toews, Kane, Doughty, Kopitar, Sid and Geno were all between 21-24

The Sedins were 28 in 2009-10 when they broke out, the year before the finals visit

JT is 28 just like the Sedins were

 

Its true you need to pay to play, but you need to be smart about it, Loui, cough cough Ericksson, or anyone from that famous FA class

 

My question is would you have paid JT that dough last year or the year before?

The guys I listed above were earning those big contracts while still on their ELCs

[Canuck Surfer]

On 5/9/2022 at 9:39 AM, fanfor42 said:

If Poolman stays on LTIR and Boeser signs for 6.25m or less there will be money for Miller and Horvat (as 4m in dead cap frees up in another year).  So yes it is possible.

 

Strategic moves not wholesale change is what I am saying. 

Poolman has a super long term, or career threatening injury?

 

[RU SERIOUS]

9 hours ago, Baratheon said:

Some have preemptively criticized them though lol.  "If they dare move (insert my favorite player) then they have failed regardless of the return we receive because they had the audacity to evaluate things differently from myself."

Unfortunately very true and given that Brock, JT, Garland, Hogs and a few others are going to be on their way out in a few weeks, you can bet some folks will be happy and some not but JR and his team have little choice but to rebuild this team and it's unfortunately going to result in some short term pain, as Jim benning "literally sold the farm" to try and save his job and greens and now poor JR is going to have some painful decisions to make.  No matter - it's can't get too much worse than it is after missing the playoffs for years and finishing in the bottom of the league year after year after year, while we waited for something-anything to come of Uncle Jim's Master Plan - that never delivered in the end.

[73 Percent]

I'm skeptical of the new management core as well. They definitely talk the talk, appearing to be unsatisfied with anything less than a cup.

 

As for walking the walk they've only made 2 minor moves so far and have failed to move out halak, get Rathbone some games, and sign McDonough.

 

A quick look at Rutherfords draft history tells an even more bleak tale. In 20 drafts with the hurricanes these are his picks that turned into significant NHL players. I used 400 games as a marker (5 seasons without playoffs).

 

Erik Cole

Josef vasicek

Dave tanabe 

Niclas wallin

Cam ward

Erik Staal

Andrew Ladd

Jack Johnson 

Brock McGinn

Jacob slavin

Viktor rask

Jeff Skinner

Justin Faulk

Brian Dumoulin

Brandon Sutter

Elias Lindholm

Brett Pesce

 

A pretty uninspiring list of you ask me (for 20 years worth of drafting).

 

IF you want a sadder story let's look at his draft history with the Penguins (2014-2020). I used a marker of 150 games for this one.

 

Kapanen 

Sprong

Simon

 

I don't have much faith in this management group to "build" a Stanley Cup contender. They may be able to retool this roster into one though as that route requires less drafting.

Edited May 12, 2022 by 73 Percent

[Alflives]

4 hours ago, RU SERIOUS said:

Unfortunately very true and given that Brock, JT, Garland, Hogs and a few others are going to be on their way out in a few weeks, you can bet some folks will be happy and some not but JR and his team have little choice but to rebuild this team and it's unfortunately going to result in some short term pain, as Jim benning "literally sold the farm" to try and save his job and greens and now poor JR is going to have some painful decisions to make.  No matter - it's can't get too much worse than it is after missing the playoffs for years and finishing in the bottom of the league year after year after year, while we waited for something-anything to come of Uncle Jim's Master Plan - that never delivered in the end.

I agree that JR sees us needing to rebuild around Demko, Petey, and Hughes.  Will our owner allow that kind of step back though?  Will Boudreau come back to a team (for only one year) when that year is obviously going to be a step back?

Even though we need to step back (trade a lot of guys for futures) I just don’t see it happening.  We did nothing that indicates that’s going to happen at the TDL.  Hell, if anything, we did a Benning move and traded our third for a 26 year old Dermott! 

[The Lock]

6 hours ago, RU SERIOUS said:

Unfortunately very true and given that Brock, JT, Garland, Hogs and a few others are going to be on their way out in a few weeks, you can bet some folks will be happy and some not but JR and his team have little choice but to rebuild this team and it's unfortunately going to result in some short term pain, as Jim benning "literally sold the farm" to try and save his job and greens and now poor JR is going to have some painful decisions to make.  No matter - it's can't get too much worse than it is after missing the playoffs for years and finishing in the bottom of the league year after year after year, while we waited for something-anything to come of Uncle Jim's Master Plan - that never delivered in the end.

Do you have links to where you heard about this?

[Nucker 67]

2 hours ago, 73 Percent said:

A pretty uninspiring list of you ask me

I don't know if it's terrible drafting or not, but Canucks could sure use Slavin  and Pesce right about now

 

This is a new management team, consisting of some very smart hockey people, scouting, analytics. I trust they'll make the right moves for the betterment of the team. I could care less if they trade Miller, if it improves the Canucks long term and makes them a contender.

 

I look back when we recently had Benning and Desjardins, then Green.  The Canucks are in much better hands these days.

[RU SERIOUS]

3 hours ago, The Lock said:

Do you have links to where you heard about this?

Of course not, but it is a certainty that JR will have to move at least 2-3 "brand name players" for cap ans strategic reasons and my money is on Boeser & Hogz going first (because Boeser is a one dimensional "shooter" that can't do anything else & Hogz is too streaky and light weight),  with a lesser likelyhood that Garland goes (because of his size).  The Big wildcard in all this is JT and given his age, the age of the rest of team, his likely salary & term demands, I think JR is going to cash him out - unless Miller gives us a sweatheart concession on salary and a shorter term- which will be surprising if he does.  Same for Brock, as there is not a snowflakes chance in hell he gets his $7.85M Q.O. and term offered as he's only worth $4.5-5M (on a sunny day) so he's all but gone.  It will be unfortunate to lose a couple of those guys as they certainly have talent - but it's obvious something has to change as we keep finishing in the bottom of the league and missing the playoffs every year, so something has to give as this band of players cannot get the job done and THAT IS THE BOTTOM LINE.

[-DLC-]

On 5/11/2022 at 3:44 AM, RU SERIOUS said:

I'm certainly hoping JR & Co. start the rebuild this year

RU serious?

[The Lock]

9 minutes ago, RU SERIOUS said:

Of course not, but it is a certainty that JR will have to move at least 2-3 "brand name players" for cap ans strategic reasons and my money is on Boeser & Hogz going first (because Boeser is a one dimensional "shooter" that can't do anything else & Hogz is too streaky and light weight),  with a lesser likelyhood that Garland goes (because of his size).  The Big wildcard in all this is JT and given his age, the age of the rest of team, his likely salary & term demands, I think JR is going to cash him out - unless Miller gives us a sweatheart concession on salary and a shorter term- which will be surprising if he does.  Same for Brock, as there is not a snowflakes chance in hell he gets his $7.85M Q.O. and term offered as he's only worth $4.5-5M (on a sunny day) so he's all but gone.  It will be unfortunate to lose a couple of those guys as they certainly have talent - but it's obvious something has to change as we keep finishing in the bottom of the league and missing the playoffs every year, so something has to give as this band of players cannot get the job done and THAT IS THE BOTTOM LINE.

If you don't have links or proof, I'm going to believe what you're saying about as much as I believe in the tooth fairy. Who knows, perhaps I should consider the tooth fairy a more credible source...

 

You want a rebuild and that's fine. That's your opinion. It doiesn't mean it's going to happen. It's very unlikely to happen given what we've heard from management so far.

 

But your posts typically reflect more on the side of propaganda anyway than actual truth, so I typically take your posts with less than a grain of salt anyway if I'm being honest. lol

Edited May 12, 2022 by The Lock

[Gurn]

Wondering why people say JB's 7.5 years is almost a decade- when it isn't?

Math much?