We do not need to tear it down OR make big trades

[Coconuts]

2 hours ago, CanucksJay said:

If you dont think we need to strip it down, I don't think you're advocating for big change? More like a retool?

 

I dont think Myers, Miller or Boeser  leaving is big change depending on who we get back.

Big change is Demko, Horvat, Hughes, Petey being traded and I dont see that happening. As far as I'm concerned, those 4 guys are the core with Podz being the 5th.

Hogz, Garland, Pearson are good top 9 players but again, them leaving would be a retool in my opinion.

 

I would define big change as a young guy from the core being shipped out.

 

Mller was our points leader but if he doesnt sign a new contract this offseason, I'd be fine with unloading him.

 

 

 

More of a retool, yeah. Not so much a rebuild, but I would prioritize holding onto our picks and building up our prospect pool as opposed to flipping them out trying to make the playoffs. I'd add via free agency or via assets at the NHL level, we're not deep enough to be moving out futures. 

 

I agree with you regarding who I envision as the core. But yeah, I'd def be looking at players on the younger side and that very much means drafting and developing our own. 

 

I'd be patient with Hoglander because his age, the others have value but could be moved. There aren't many players on this roster I wouldn't be willing to move on from but I'm not as sentimental as some folks around here. 

 

I'm not interested in re-signing him at all, I'd use him as a chip to build up the roster going forward. To acquire prospects, picks, NHL ready youth, or help on D. 

 

1 hour ago, mll said:

 

The 2 year timeline to be contenders seem ambitious under that approach.  It feels like they are going to be more aggressive than that and look for players who have been misused/buried and could flourish in a larger role or different system.  Dermott might be the start of such targets.  

An easy example is Neal Pionk.  Pretty much everyone mocked WPG for wanting him as part of the return for Trouba.  Maurice explained rather diplomatically that they felt NYR's system was a work in progress but that he had excellent gap control - ie it was the system letting him down.  He's now a reliable top-4 D.  Matheson looks to have worked out quite well in Pittsburgh after struggling in Florida.  

 

Rutherford on the Seravalli's podcast was asked about trades/free agency and identified players 26 and under as their primary targets.  Talked of wanting cap space so they could try and take advantage of cap strapped teams.  

 

I see it as ambitious for sure, I think the turnaround will take longer. Which isn't to say we couldn't be in the mix for the playoffs as soon as next season, I fully expect us to be Miller or no Miller. Trying to grab under the radar players would be intriguing, but we'll have to be ruthless in how we go about freeing up cap space if that's the game management wants to play. 

 

Good, that's the age bracket we should be looking at. Cap space has come up with him a lot, I can't help but think we're in for some significant movement. 

[mll]

3 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

More of a retool, yeah. Not so much a rebuild, but I would prioritize holding onto our picks and building up our prospect pool as opposed to flipping them out trying to make the playoffs. I'd add via free agency or via assets at the NHL level, we're not deep enough to be moving out futures. 

 

I agree with you regarding who I envision as the core. But yeah, I'd def be looking at players on the younger side and that very much means drafting and developing our own. 

 

I'd be patient with Hoglander because his age, the others have value but could be moved. There aren't many players on this roster I wouldn't be willing to move on from but I'm not as sentimental as some folks around here. 

 

I'm not interested in re-signing him at all, I'd use him as a chip to build up the roster going forward. To acquire prospects, picks, NHL ready youth, or help on D. 

 

I see it as ambitious for sure, I think the turnaround will take longer. Which isn't to say we couldn't be in the mix for the playoffs as soon as next season, I fully expect us to be Miller or no Miller. Trying to grab under the radar players would be intriguing, but we'll have to be ruthless in how we go about freeing up cap space if that's the game management wants to play. 

 

Good, that's the age bracket we should be looking at. Cap space has come up with him a lot, I can't help but think we're in for some significant movement. 

 

Several weeks ago Stan Smyl said that he is confident that they have the right people in place to target the right players.  He also said that their biggest concern was cap space.  When Rutherford says they want to be part of the discussions with teams who are cap strapped - that suggests also established players because moving ELCs wouldn't help those teams and cap space wouldn't be that big of an issue if they are targeting ELCs.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if they try to replicate the Hamonic/Dermott domino trade.  

 

 

 

[Gawdzukes]

33 minutes ago, eeeeergh said:

100%. Its brutally expensive, and a 1 dimensional shutdown defenseman would come out cheaper than Myers anyway. Myers got paid the big bucks b/c hes a puck moving defenseman. 

But to be honest he kind of sucks at moving the puck and is a complete adventure in the offensive zone. He's a big body who is good at playing the body but horrible at moving the puck in high paced situations. He's also a good PKer as size is a huge attribute but his value is limited in that he is having more and more problems making good decisions under pressure.

[Fred65]

9 minutes ago, Gawdzukes said:

But to be honest he kind of sucks at moving the puck and is a complete adventure in the offensive zone. He's a big body who is good at playing the body but horrible at moving the puck in high paced situations. He's also a good PKer as size is a huge attribute but his value is limited in that he is having more and more problems making good decisions under pressure.

The role he plays is determined by the coach. If they were to make him available for a trade he'd be gone in a flash IMO. There are not many 6'8"/230 RHD defencemen around. He's here because he lives in Kelowna, ditto Schenn and wants to play here. I think many would be surprised to learn that many US NHL players don't wish to play in Canada, taxes, climate and far from home. Faulk is prime evidence

 

NHL: Blues' Faulk not looking forward to going to Canada (yahoo.com)

[Alflives]

5 minutes ago, Fred65 said:

The role he plays is determined by the coach. If they were to make him available for a trade he'd be gone in a flash IMO. There are not many 6'8"/230 RHD defencemen around. He's here because he lives in Kelowna, ditto Schenn and wants to play here. I think many would be surprised to learn that many US NHL players don't wish to play in Canada, taxes, climate and far from home. Faulk is prime evidence

 

NHL: Blues' Faulk not looking forward to going to Canada (yahoo.com)

NHL players who prefer to not play up here are mostly not wanting to be in a fishbowl.  The taxes and other things are down the list.  It's why Matthews demanded a five year deal.  He gets to be a UFA and go play in Arizona well away from Canadian (TO) media scrutiny and where he can live in anonymity. 

Edited May 24, 2022 by Alflives

[Rabbit]

During the off-season, we need:

 

Fill the holes of #C and D:

Solve the cap issues, there might need to sale some positive assets;

Build the players with strong and grits;

 

I do think the coach staff problems were fixed.

 

[Fred65]

3 minutes ago, Alflives said:

NHL players who prefer to not play up here are mostly not wanting to be in a fishbowl.  The taxes and other things are down the list.  It's why Matthews demanded a five year deal.  He gets to be a UFA and go play in Arizona well away from Canadian (TO) media scrutiny and where he can live in anonymity. 

Yeah thats another reason but think about Florida, there is NO state tax, Thats kind of nice. I know my wife lovess to shop down in the USA, little things but they all add up IMO.

[Alflives]

9 minutes ago, Fred65 said:

Yeah thats another reason but think about Florida, there is NO state tax, Thats kind of nice. I know my wife lovess to shop down in the USA, little things but they all add up IMO.

Was it Pronger's wife who hated Edmonton so much he left after one year?  And he led them to the Final I think too.  That was definitely an Edmonton thing.  

I wonder which Canadian (some in the US too I think) are ones the wives hate being in?  Edmonton, Winnipeg, Buffalo?  

[Fred65]

16 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Was it Pronger's wife who hated Edmonton so much he left after one year?  And he led them to the Final I think too.  That was definitely an Edmonton thing.  

I wonder which Canadian (some in the US too I think) are ones the wives hate being in?  Edmonton, Winnipeg, Buffalo?  

Alf it's a trueism that a happy wife means a happy life. You see the same in the English Premiership, the wifes want to close to London. Trying to convince players move to the North East of England you need a lot of horse power 

[RU SERIOUS]

On 5/23/2022 at 11:27 AM, MtnHockeyGuy said:

Everyone knows the hole this team dug itself in for the first 2 months of the season. Everyone has seen the exciting rise the team performed for the remainder of the season. 

 

There is absolutely no reason to make any changes to the core. This team is filled with absolute workhorses and is exactly what is needed for playoff performances. Miller, Horvat, Pettersson, Boeser, Podkolzin, Garland, Ekman-Larsson, Myers, Schenn, Hughes, DEMKO, 4th line.... These dudes are solid. Yes, they make some gaffs, but every single player in the league will make gaffs. When you watch a team every single night, you will see mistakes. But guess what, if you were to watch any other team (Tampa, Toronto, Calgary, Edmonton, NYR, Florida...) every single night you will start to see mistakes as well. 

 

No team is perfect

 

Anything can happen in the playoffs

 

I am pretty darn excited to see what this team can do in 22/23. For those that want a tear down or to sell off our top assets, stop living in fantasy land and start realizing this team is actually really good. They proved it this season even without making the playoffs. Everyone wants new shiny toys when we have some pretty stellar shiny toys right in front of our eyes. 

 

If anything can be upgraded on, it could really be our 3C position. If this team is to make any trade I would expect it to be a guy like Dickinson or Poolman, to clear a bit of cap space to make room for Miller and Boeser. Yes, Boeser. I would be shocked if he doesnt pot 30+ next season. 

 

Stop thinking big changes need to happen. This team is good. Playoffs are coming in 2023 for Vancouver, and then anything can happen. 

Of course - Bingo !  Why didn't I think of that.   Keeping the exact same team and expecting different results is the way to go !

 

Edited May 24, 2022 by RU SERIOUS

[J.I.A.H.N]

I believe Miller and Myers are the 2 that leave.

 

Miller at 5+ million is an incredible deal for a 100 pt player, and to be honest a 8.5 million Zibanejad deal is not out of line either. (Just ask NYR fans if they regret that deal....not a chance!) Zibanejad is one of the most popular players there)

 

Miller has great asset return value and his cap relief, IMO, is what JR is talking about.

 

Return on Miller: a prospect and pick or picks

 

Myers, also has value, and if you consider a 1 million cap retention, he is even more valuable not just a cap dump. Despite what I have read in this thread about Myers, his numbers have been awesome for his Talent level.  Top 4 in Even Strength points, Tied for 46 OA in plus/minus, Played all 82 games, and was 55th OA in TOI, that shows he is a pretty decent top 4 Dman, if not Top 3 Dman. Just over paid. by a million or so. Myers has 2 more years on that contract.

 

So retaining a Million on Myers, to get both assets, and cap relief, is not such a big deal.......................

 

Return on Myers: No retention a 3rd, with retention a mid 2nd

 

 

This saves us somewhere between 10 and 13 million dollars, depending on the year and deal. This is where I think it starts..............

 

 

Note* Jason Dickenson showed some improvement later in the year IMO, so it will be interesting to see what JR does with him.....

 

 

Edited May 24, 2022 by J.I.A.H.N

[DS4quality]

If you let Myers go, who would replace him? There's not many rhd on the market  especially not ones who are any good.  Unless Poolman is a good full time replacement for Myers, or if we can snag Letang; ditching Myers might hurt us a bit more than everyone thinks.

[grandmaster]

1 hour ago, Alflives said:

Was it Pronger's wife who hated Edmonton so much he left after one year?  And he led them to the Final I think too.  That was definitely an Edmonton thing.  

I wonder which Canadian (some in the US too I think) are ones the wives hate being in?  Edmonton, Winnipeg, Buffalo?  

So I checked Miller’s wife’s IG account and am pretty confident she loves it here in Vancouver. A very attractive women who values and really loves her kids. This town is great to raise a family when you have money (private schools, nice neighbourhoods, lots of activities, etc). She loves her home, the beaches and volunteering in our community.

 

Miller is staying. He won’t make ridiculous salary demands either. 

 

 

[tas]

1 hour ago, grandmaster said:

So I checked Miller’s wife’s IG account and am pretty confident she loves it here in Vancouver. A very attractive women who values and really loves her kids. This town is great to raise a family when you have money (private schools, nice neighbourhoods, lots of activities, etc). She loves her home, the beaches and volunteering in our community.

 

Miller is staying. He won’t make ridiculous salary demands either. 

 

 

i definitely expect jt to put his money where this mouth is and take a "hometown" discount to stay and try to win a cup with his "best friends". the guy has too much pride to say one thing and do another. 

 

expect a deal starting with a 7. he said himself he'll probably never get close to this year's point totals again. he has no delusions about what he is or desire to cash in at the detriment of the team. 

[wai_lai416]

On 5/23/2022 at 2:01 PM, Alflives said:

Actually, if we want a chance to build a team that can win the Cup, we should be keeping Demko and Petey.  Hughes to Jersey for a HUGE haul.  Miller, and Bo for picks and prospects.  Garland too.  

lol hughes is not going to New jersey to be a #3 defenseman they have Hamilton and Luke Hughes as their 1/2 and severson as their #3/4 hughes is 1 expensive 2nd pairing defenseman long term.. and if Luke is as advertise in 3 years time they are going to have 23-24mil on 3 defenseman 

[Coconuts]

7 hours ago, mll said:

 

Several weeks ago Stan Smyl said that he is confident that they have the right people in place to target the right players.  He also said that their biggest concern was cap space.  When Rutherford says they want to be part of the discussions with teams who are cap strapped - that suggests also established players because moving ELCs wouldn't help those teams and cap space wouldn't be that big of an issue if they are targeting ELCs.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if they try to replicate the Hamonic/Dermott domino trade.  

 

 

 

A gradual whittling down of cap space then, it'd make sense. But they'll still likely need go move out someone making significant dollars, or multiple players doing so. Depending in who they wanna go after and how likely it is they can make a deal.

[Alflives]

4 hours ago, grandmaster said:

So I checked Miller’s wife’s IG account and am pretty confident she loves it here in Vancouver. A very attractive women who values and really loves her kids. This town is great to raise a family when you have money (private schools, nice neighbourhoods, lots of activities, etc). She loves her home, the beaches and volunteering in our community.

 

Miller is staying. He won’t make ridiculous salary demands either. 

 

 

That’s really important.  So glad to hear JT’s wife has made Vancouver her home.  We don’t know JT, but it sure looks like his wife and those two little girls are more important that money to him.  Hopefully we offer him a fair contract that keeps him and his family here.  

7 years x 7.75

[aGENT]

5 hours ago, DS4quality said:

If you let Myers go, who would replace him? There's not many rhd on the market  especially not ones who are any good.  Unless Poolman is a good full time replacement for Myers, or if we can snag Letang; ditching Myers might hurt us a bit more than everyone thinks.

Trade one of Miller/Boeser/Garland for a RHD, sign Lyubushkin as a UFA. 

 

 

[Alflives]

2 minutes ago, aGENT said:

Trade one of Miller/Boeser/Garland for a RHD, sign Lyubushkin as a UFA. 

 

 

Yup.  Myers is very easily replaceable and for a lot less on the cap.  

[aGENT]

12 hours ago, Coconuts said:

No, I won't stop believing this team needs big change. I've been advocating for big change since November. I don't think we need to strip things down, but a reset would be great.

 

Trade Miller, clear out cap, build around the youth and take a gradual approach to team building as opposed to the "anything can happen come playoff time" bit that's had us spinning our wheels in mediocrity for years. Despite his lack of success Benning was trying to just get us into the playoffs. 

 

I don't think we're as close as some folks do, and despite the run down the stretch I think it's incredibly naive to believe this team will make the playoffs and just waltz to a final over the next few seasons. I think our window is further away, says.. maybe four seasons.

 

Most teams that make the final have to struggle and fail for a while before breaking through. We've seen it from Tampa, Washington, and St. Louis in recent years. Colorado is still trying to break through, as is Carolina. We've made the playoffs twice in nine years now, we'll likely have to battle for a while.

 

We haven't won in 50+ years, you think people would be used to patiently waiting.

While I overwhelmingly agree with your overall sentiment (as usual  ), have to say, that "Benning trying just to get us to the playoffs" wasn't an issue with where we were in our cycle. As a team mid/coming out of a rebuild, that's exactly what we should have been doing. Progressing towards/striving for, playoffs.

 

That said, where we are now, I wholeheartedly agree that it's time to "get serious". We've got the young core pieces, the time is now to cash in on vets with value and build around that core to bet better than  just a team that "hopes to get in/anything can happen". We've been on that wrung. Time to reach higher.