[Discussion] Do You Have the Stomach For a Rebuild?

[DownUndaCanuck]

I've said before I think a 3 year crash rebuild is plausible but might not get us enough top end players so I'd be down for a 5 year rebuild, I think that's all we really need, but have to cash in and try and score a lot of picks somehow.

 

We decide to keep Petey, Hughes, Podkolzin, Bo and Demko (if they'll stay).

 

Next 3 years we tank HARD - top 5 picks each year easily, hopefully we score a 1st overall during that time. The subsequent 2 years we still suck and probably get a couple of top-10 picks.

 

In that 6th year, things get interesting. We start to climb the rankings, not quite a playoff team but we get some wins and out of the basement. The 7th year we make the playoffs - just. Then we're taking 8th and 9th year we become contenders. Bo and Demko will be old at that point but hopefully have carried the younger guys through the playoff years, Petey and Hughes will be in their early 30s and leaders on the team and the younger generation will be in their prime (late 20s).

 

Hopefully during those 5 years, we have something like a 1st overall, a couple of 3rd overalls and a 5th and 8th overall (for example), along with hopefully 3-4 other 1st round picks (probably much later as they'd be from contending teams). Let's say for argument's sake, one of the 3rds is a bust. 

 

If we look at say 2015-2019 drafts as an example, that equates to Matthews, Heiskanen, Dylan Strome (the bust), Barrott Hayton and Moritz Seider. Throw in some mid-to-late 1sts in there too and you've got Keiffer Bellows, Konecny and Rasmus Sandin. That's the new core you build around. Sure, a couple of them are going to be crap, and a couple of the 2nd/3rd round picks may make the team, but getting all these guys to hit their prime at the same time is how you win.

 

Right now we've got old vets past their prime, kids not quite entering their prime and then some players in the middle of their prime, all firing at the wrong time so we end up winning some but sucking sometimes too. If we synchronise all our players to peak at the same time we'll have more success.

 

Pettersson - Matthews - Podkolzin

Bellows - Horvat - Strome

Konecny - Hayton - ?

? - ? - ?

 

Hughes - Seider

Heiskanen - ?
Sandin - ?

 

That team would suck as rookies but in that 5-8 year period, when they all start hitting their prime, watch out.

[lmm]

6 hours ago, -AJ- said:

Honestly, I'm pretty sure I'll always stick with this team, though a very long rebuild (a la Buffalo) would start to get tough.

I am thinking we could very well do a rebuild just like Buffalo

the ting about these teams that take a really long time to rebuild is that they go abot it wrong for a long time before deciding to do it right

that should sound very familiar

If you look at Buffalo they did the same things the Canucks did

Signed Okposo the same year we signed Loui E

brought in guys that didn't work out, like O'Reilly 

2018 traded for Skinner and then signed him to a 8 year - $72M contract, sound familiar? traded for 4 years ago signed 3 years ago

Then about 3 years ago, decided to do things right

2019 O'Rielly for a player drafted in the 1st and a first ++

2021 Traded Ristolainen  for a 1st in 21 and a 3rd in in 23

2021 Traded Eichel in 21 for 2 players drafted in the4 first and a 1st and conditional 2nd

2021 traded Taylor Hall for a 2nd

2021 Traded Brandon Montour for a player drafted in the 3rd and a 3rd pick

2021 Traded Eric Stall for a 3rd and a 5th

2021 traded Rienhart for a 1st

2021 drafted Owen Power 1st overall

 

that was 6 major deals in 2021 and then won the lottery

they basically kept Middlestadt and Dahlin and a few vets

in 2018 they were still adding Vets just like Vancouver has done for the last 10 years

I think Buffalo could have done better with their picks, a few too many 150#ers in the early rounds

[-AJ-]

8 minutes ago, lmm said:

I am thinking we could very well do a rebuild just like Buffalo

the ting about these teams that take a really long time to rebuild is that they go abot it wrong for a long time before deciding to do it right

that should sound very familiar

If you look at Buffalo they did the same things the Canucks did

Signed Okposo the same year we signed Loui E

brought in guys that didn't work out, like O'Reilly 

2018 traded for Skinner and then signed him to a 8 year - $72M contract, sound familiar? traded for 4 years ago signed 3 years ago

Then about 3 years ago, decided to do things right

2019 O'Rielly for a player drafted in the 1st and a first ++

2021 Traded Ristolainen  for a 1st in 21 and a 3rd in in 23

2021 Traded Eichel in 21 for 2 players drafted in the4 first and a 1st and conditional 2nd

2021 traded Taylor Hall for a 2nd

2021 Traded Brandon Montour for a player drafted in the 3rd and a 3rd pick

2021 Traded Eric Stall for a 3rd and a 5th

2021 traded Rienhart for a 1st

2021 drafted Owen Power 1st overall

 

that was 6 major deals in 2021 and then won the lottery

they basically kept Middlestadt and Dahlin and a few vets

in 2018 they were still adding Vets just like Vancouver has done for the last 10 years

I think Buffalo could have done better with their picks, a few too many 150#ers in the early rounds

Buffalo's rebuild started in about 2013, not 2018.

[RU SERIOUS]

Are those "NO" votes derived from Dominion Voting Machines?  They can't possibly be legit, as no "Normal" sane Canuck's fan could possibly ever say NO to a rebuild after the last decade of Jim Benning Suffering & Misery.  

Edited October 25, 2022 by RU SERIOUS

[R3aL]

I do for sure.

 

I don’t have a stomache for watching players wear the sweater and not work hard, not earn their salaries and work their buts off especially during the off-season to be ready for the season.

 

I can handle losing.

 

but I want our team to build an identity and I want them to show heart and compete hard.

 

whatever path we must go I don’t care.

 

I think a retool is necessary

 

build up Millers trade value as a dangerous goal scoring winger and trade him this year. 
 

trade pearson and Myers after their bonuses.

 

make a decision on Horvat and hopefully resign him. 
 

I would look for an OEL deal as well, and garland could be a trade chip but Boeser I think is the one to go first. But we need to rebuild some trade value their first. 

[ShawnAntoski]

17 hours ago, Warhippy said:

Ok, let's dissect this "rebuild takes to long" comment.  We heard this fan base doesn't have the stomach for a rebuild, yet we've been retooling since 2013.

 

That's a decade of retooling.  With no developed players to speak of.  No added picks.  No traded assets.

 

Here's some teams that have rebuilt over a decade.  A decade of suck; while not all sucked for a full decade, and while not all have in fact won cups.  They are considered threats

 

Buffalo drafted 8th, 2nd, 2nd, 8th, 8th, 1st, 7th, 8th, 1st and 9th and add 4 additional 1st round picks and 6 additional 2nd and a few additional 3rd round picks in 9 years or less.  

 

Toronto drafted 5, 7, 5, 8, 4, 1.

 

Edmonton drafted 6, 10, 1, 1, 1, 7 3, 1, 4, 10, 8

 

Colorado drafted  3, 2, 1, 10, 10, 4, 4, 

 

Pens drafted 5, 1, 2, 1, 2 

 

Rangers drafted 7, 9, 2, 1 (yet manage to trade all our stars for supplementary picks and players and have a Norris player refuse to sign anywhere but here)

 

Panthers drafted 4, 3, 7, 10, 10, 4, 3, 3, 2, 1, 10

 

In the decade ish or so that these teams sucked.  Rangers not withstanding because they literally had Panarin and Fox fall in their laps, Kreider; and traded most of their essential assets for quality returns that hit hit and kept on hitting.  The Pens managed 4 HOF players in a row for their core.  The Oilers sucked their way in to slightly above mediocrity.  The Leafs sucked their way in to it and endlessly traded players on 1 year terms for extra picks.  The sabres and Panthers managed to suck their way in to youth and cores we only dream of.  The Avs fell in to O'reilly and Duchene returns that set that team up and Makar fell in their laps.

 

What I am saying, again is that we've been at this since 2012/2013 and this "retooling" BS is endless.  These teams SUCKED. They are/were the epitome of SUCKED and it was for them about a decade or less of SUCK.  Yet we, have managed to spend to the cap.  We've managed to trade nobody.  We've acquired few extra picks and those few high ones we've garnered, Pettersson and Hughes are our home runs.  Imagine if in 2013 we decided to suck and by comparison we were drafting consistently well with two or three top 3 picks to supplement Hughes and Pettersson. 

 

Say...having any two or three of Matthews, Reinhardt, Ekbblad, McDavid, Draisatl, Powers, Dahlin since 2013 in addition to what we do have.  Having cap space and extra picks in our stable with quality development.  Where would we be now?

 

I know there's zero guarantees in the draft.  I know the lottery never favoured us.  I get it.  I know.  But; with zero cap space for a decade.  With no real supplementary picks.  Watching assets walk and committing to the same insanity as we did the year before, they year before that and the year before that pretending something's changed.  What have we accomplished since our 2012 President's trophy?  

 

I find it highly insulting that we are told that we don't have the stomach for a rebuild because it takes too long.  Just look at the drafts from 2013 through 2021 and think of what might have been had this team the stomach to have simply done what needed to be done.

Good points.  Atleast, with a rebuild their is hope to contend, in the future vs being stuck in NHL Purgatory; and ofcourse, it matters alot, who is doing the rebuild & the overall talent level of the draft cause we had seen the Oilers & Sabres mess vs the Penguins, Avs, Blackhawks and Kings. 

 

Imo, the myth, that long time Canuck fans are ignorant & impatient, are just projections from Francisco, new/bandwagon fans and some media schills vs the LONGTIME fans, that had lived through all/most of it.  Personally, I am willing to see, IF Aquaman will EVEN allow one & how JR or whomever will do a rebuild, compared to how Yzerman, Gorton & Armstrong are doing theirs.  As for now, the FO should just let Aquaman marinate with the roster, he HELPED built cause the choice, is obviously binary at this point: solidify their spot in NHL Purgatory or patiently rebuild and sell sell sell.  Anyways, let's see what happens cause Aquaman, is one stubborn guy...

Edited October 25, 2022 by ShawnAntoski

[IBatch]

8 hours ago, stawns said:

I don't think there needs to be a "rebuild".  As before they need to.revognize that the young core is going to be (or already is) the dominant force on the team and make 2-3 smart moves to support that core as best they can.  There's a good, young team under there if they play it right........so far it's been a big, fat fail from management on this front.

Man do we ever need a Pat Quin right now.   Know times are different with the cap (trades aren't as frequent and rather underwhelming as a whole league wide), but we could sure use some good pro scouting ... Lumme, one of the best D's this teams ever had (PKer, PP etc), cost us a second rounder.    McLean ... Sundstrom (and he was great for us),  Momesso, Ronning etc for Butcher ... Nedved for Hedican and Brown.    

 

There were other deals that didn't work out as good, but he was willing to trade away the remnants of the 80's team drafted around a decade earlier, blue chip guys, and add the right vets to the group for the playoffs.   Babcyh, Courtnall, Adams - also brought in BC boys.   Know we aren't going to win every trade, but it sure would be nice to win one right now.   Stajonov for Naslund...ok doesn't have to be that lopsided but sure could use Lumme and Hedican right about now.    

 

Also i wouldn't consider it a rebuild so much as a re-set to finish what was started much like COL did.   Don't expect that either.   That's unrealistic.  But COL was 20 points worse then we were (we were next up), when they lost the lottery and drafted Makar at 4...five years they won a cup, plus they also made the playoffs a couple times first.   Who wouldn't be willing to do that this year?   Drafting Bedard is a foolish expectation, even with the lottery reeling it in a little.    Less then 1/5 chances ... average 2 times a decade IF your the worst throughout.   But a top 3 pick should help us.   Possibly the following season even ... it might take both.  

 

We don't need 2/3 smart trades.   We need 2/3 lopsided ones.  Ones we win.  Most trades make some sense with context added.   IF this team is going to make it over the hump and get to the playoffs with regularity, they need to spend their way out of it with futures.  2/3 trades ... well only is so many guys teams would be interested in.   And we can't afford to keep spending our futures on fixing the present (Dickie ... was that a "smart" trade?...I think it wasn't bad).   We couldn't replace Miller on the open market for what he signed for.   Was that a "smart" move?    There was zero trades on the table Allvin and JR felt were good enough... smart trades is exactly what every GM intends to make, for sure doesn't always work out though.  Garland and OEL yikes.   Was it worth it? 

 

If all paths lead to Bedard then we are in for a treat,  too bad we can't remotely plan for that.  

[IBatch]

3 hours ago, -AJ- said:

Buffalo's rebuild started in about 2013, not 2018.

Pretty sure he knows that,  he was just pointing out that Vancouver could do what Buffalo did, by pivoting and showing the similarities ... there are some for sure.   I used to use Okposo as one of the many examples of LE at the time lol...Strange how he didn't develop into the player he looked to be.   Now he's their Captain i think.

 

   Detroit is another example, Holland couldn't make it work with his third core ... all those futures finally caught up with him and like JB he had to pay the piper.   Yzerman came in and started to trade away some of the guys Holland was working with, and so far looks like he wasn't just lucky with TB.   He's for sure willing to cut bait like he did with Drouin, as well as able to properly find guys at the table, Seider was way off board for such a high pick, he for sure could have traded down even one spot or two but didn't risk it,   

 

Our team isn't quite there yet but it's closer then the stat lines look.   Have zero idea why Demko can't steal a game, or the team can't seem to play a third period.  Like Jekyll and Hyde most of the time ive been a fan so nothing surprises me.   Remember we'd beat great teams and lose to crappy ones while the Sedins were around lol...same with WCE era, and especially when Linden was around. 

 

I'm glad you threw your gauntlet down and declared your stick it out through thick and thin - your one of my favourite posters, and share your enthusiasm for hockey history.    It's important to have you and others around to make sure that decades from now you can tell the story properly. 

 

For me anyways, this team didn't start rebuilding until 2017, that saw three guys finally waive their clauses and join Kesler and Luongo...Burrows, Bieksa and Hansen.   If we had to put a line in the sand, that was the end of "re-tooling" and the start of rebuilding in earnest.    ALL teams are planning for the future while managing the present.   JB won't get top marks.   Will add that ive been saying all along, this is going to hurt no matter whom took over.   But i do hope that next time we have a great team and the time comes, that the owners learned their lesson.   Trying to make it tough for young players make the lineup doesn't mean you have to spend to the cap.   Covid threw a wrench in most teams plans, we should have never been in that position.  

 

Melnyk got a lot of crap.   Some of it deserved - but one thing he did say and was committed too (he loved his team), was by setting an internal cap, money would be available later, and that he'd be spending to the cap as soon as this year.    They didn't win all their trades either (Zib for a second! ouch!), but piled up the pick, basically doubled and tripled up on their seconds and thirds, plus a lot of extra firsts too.    It's paying dividends and should for awhile yet.   They blew up a team that's about the same age as ours is now.  Duchene, Stone, Hoffman, EK, Pageu, Zib... pretty much any guy they could ... all before they became UFAs...

 

Im glad you're going to be around whether we go there or not.   To me, when i talk about two things; 

 

One it was always going to take a long time to get back to "contender" status.  Teams only ever done that two maybe three times in their history.   Each time it took a little longer between finals or cores, because well the league went from 21 to 32 teams and it should.  Add to it the cap era.    Double edged sword because it means any decent team might make it to the final, the flip side awfully hard to make a true contender.

 

Second,  and hope i'm wrong in a good way, the Canucks best chance at getting back to contender status,  is/was always going to be parts of the post Sedin core, and the one following that.   Think EP and or QHs and  Demko, 28/29 -32 or so , plus some 12-16 year old kids we know nothing about.    1982 was a bit of a fluke but will include them (towel power ... character up the ying yang, people that love Hansen would adore half that team and some)  1994 wasn't a fluke but not expected either.   12 years.   2011 another 17 years, inbetween we had the WCE but it was completely built on the Linden team - it was blown up and cycled into the WCE/Sedin's.    This team couldn't do that.   Honestly, i think i'd have rather we were just an expansion team in 2017 under the old rules.   At least they got the first or second overall for a couple seasons lol.   ATL and CLB.   And both those teams took a long time to gain any relevance.   CLB lol... man that's rough ... what can they put in their rafters?  Torts beating TB is like our 1982 run.   And they've been around for a couple decades now. 

 

Like it or not, unless the league brings the play-ins back permanently, a lot of teams aren't going to have much to cheer for, over extended periods of time.   Can see why Wilson endlessly re-tooled.  

Edited October 25, 2022 by IBatch

[IBatch]

2 hours ago, ShawnAntoski said:

Good points.  Atleast, with a rebuild their is hope to contend, in the future vs being stuck in NHL Purgatory; and ofcourse, it matters alot, who is doing the rebuild & the overall talent level of the draft cause we had seen the Oilers & Sabres mess vs the Penguins, Avs, Blackhawks and Kings. 

 

Imo, the myth, that long time Canuck fans are ignorant & impatient, are just projections from Francisco, new/bandwagon fans and some media schills vs the LONGTIME fans, that had lived through all/most of it.  Personally, I am willing to see, IF Aquaman will allow one & how JR or whomever will do a rebuild, compared to how Yzerman, Gorton & Armstrong are doing theirs.  As for now, the FO should just let Aquaman marinate with the roster he HELPED built cause the choice, is obviously binary at this point: solidify their spot in NHL Purgatory or patiently rebuild and sell sell sell.  Anyways, let's see what happens cause Aquaman, is one stubborn guy...

In the end it's also a business.   You'd think that they'd want to know their market.   It's not always easy to pack a building if there isn't any buzz.. 

 

Agree Canuck fans are loyal and won't go away.   It's a bit of an abusive relationship at times, and in this case the abuse would be the idea we'd run away and cheer for a different team lol.   What else are we going to do?   Suppose Seattle might threaten them a little and it absolutely should as far as making new fans go.   Folks 12-21 or so are definitely fickle, and once a mind is made up to cheer for a certain team, it's awfully hard to change that.    Every kid gets a gimmie from grade school.   When Crosby won his first cup and there was his golden 2010 goal.... let's just say the kids that went to school with mine were 50/50 PIT or Sens fans and i'm being generous, more like 2/3 ... a ton of Crosby, Malkin etc jerseys.   Just like when i went to school, there were a ton of Gretzky, Coffey, Anderson, Kurri, Messier etc etc jerseys in the halls ... not just Canucks that's for sure and that's in Victoria.    In other words times haven't changed.  Sure now a lot of kids are TB or COL fans...Before EDM it was Habs and Flyer colours, when i was really young.   Only ones we didn't see much of were NYI's lol...although i know of one kid who used a Bossy one when we played street hockey, he got extra jabs in the ribs a tough kid,  just like his favourite player (RIP!).  

 

Point is, of course we are a captive audience, but with Seattle so close, and kids being fickle...brass does and is fighting for those dollars.   Hope they get that means the best way to create the buzz and make some new fans IS to provide those players that get that sort of buzz.  EP and QHs are two examples of that.   We for sure could use more of that.    Smyl/Broduer, Linden/Bure, WCE and Sedins/Luongo etc made fans for life.   Pretty hard to do that with Veys and Bears lol.    Let's hope Podz gets added ... Brock ugh that was too bad.   Demko is still on the fence for me.   

Edited October 25, 2022 by IBatch

[IBatch]

10 hours ago, Fanuck said:

You're asking the wrong question, it's not do we have the stomach for a rebuild, but rather could ownership stomach that strategy and accept the financial losses associated with that approach - and there absolutely would be financial losses?

Building new fans matters too.   You can bet having Kraken, their shiny new arena etc, is a threat to making new fans in the area.   They've already lost their Washington State hockey lovers dollars. And without buzz created that kids want to emulate, no matter what you do as a parent or grandparent, uncle or aunt etc, even if your a captive audience there is a risk of losing that income.     They are better off making proper buzz.   EP can do that to a degree, same with QHs ... that's about it for kids although in sure some might be keen on Miller and Horvat too and maybe they will or should be traded ... Brock too...like having a pet, watching your favourite player get traded teaches kids loss.   But you have to offer them something to lose too.    Ten years is most of a kids schooling ... wow couldn't imagine growing up with post Sedin era - well actually i can it's a lot like the 80's, but at least back then it was easy to make the playoffs with 21 teams, even if it meant a first round exit thanks to CAL or EDM lol. 

[wai_lai416]

i would have the stomach for a proper rebuild if we started it in 2014.. i dunno if i can stomach a proper rebuild if we tear it down and start from scratch now.. which prolly would take another 6-8 years or longer.. not many teams can go the route of a NYR and have art ross caliber players, norris caliber players top pairing RHD all fall into their laps on top of causally winning the lottery even though they finished 18th.. if we started the rebuild back in 2014 we prolly near the end of it by now?? to tear it down and rebuild now.. we won't ben competitive till 2030+.. almost 16 years worth of rebuild lol.. horvat and miller would probably be retired if not close to retired by then lol. it is what it is... we are in no mans land.. we need to rebuild.. but at the same time prolly can't afford to rebuild.. this might be the darkest era in canucks history of being bad borderline terrible if we don't turn this around and end up having to rebuild.

[Bure1010]

13 hours ago, Warhippy said:

Ok, let's dissect this "rebuild takes to long" comment.  We heard this fan base doesn't have the stomach for a rebuild, yet we've been retooling since 2013.

 

That's a decade of retooling.  With no developed players to speak of.  No added picks.  No traded assets.

 

Here's some teams that have rebuilt over a decade.  A decade of suck; while not all sucked for a full decade, and while not all have in fact won cups.  They are considered threats

 

Buffalo drafted 8th, 2nd, 2nd, 8th, 8th, 1st, 7th, 8th, 1st and 9th and add 4 additional 1st round picks and 6 additional 2nd and a few additional 3rd round picks in 9 years or less.  

 

Toronto drafted 5, 7, 5, 8, 4, 1.

 

Edmonton drafted 6, 10, 1, 1, 1, 7 3, 1, 4, 10, 8

 

Colorado drafted  3, 2, 1, 10, 10, 4, 4, 

 

Pens drafted 5, 1, 2, 1, 2 

 

Rangers drafted 7, 9, 2, 1 (yet manage to trade all our stars for supplementary picks and players and have a Norris player refuse to sign anywhere but here)

 

Panthers drafted 4, 3, 7, 10, 10, 4, 3, 3, 2, 1, 10

 

In the decade ish or so that these teams sucked.  Rangers not withstanding because they literally had Panarin and Fox fall in their laps, Kreider; and traded most of their essential assets for quality returns that hit hit and kept on hitting.  The Pens managed 4 HOF players in a row for their core.  The Oilers sucked their way in to slightly above mediocrity.  The Leafs sucked their way in to it and endlessly traded players on 1 year terms for extra picks.  The sabres and Panthers managed to suck their way in to youth and cores we only dream of.  The Avs fell in to O'reilly and Duchene returns that set that team up and Makar fell in their laps.

 

What I am saying, again is that we've been at this since 2012/2013 and this "retooling" BS is endless.  These teams SUCKED. They are/were the epitome of SUCKED and it was for them about a decade or less of SUCK.  Yet we, have managed to spend to the cap.  We've managed to trade nobody.  We've acquired few extra picks and those few high ones we've garnered, Pettersson and Hughes are our home runs.  Imagine if in 2013 we decided to suck and by comparison we were drafting consistently well with two or three top 3 picks to supplement Hughes and Pettersson. 

 

Say...having any two or three of Matthews, Reinhardt, Ekbblad, McDavid, Draisatl, Powers, Dahlin since 2013 in addition to what we do have.  Having cap space and extra picks in our stable with quality development.  Where would we be now?

 

I know there's zero guarantees in the draft.  I know the lottery never favoured us.  I get it.  I know.  But; with zero cap space for a decade.  With no real supplementary picks.  Watching assets walk and committing to the same insanity as we did the year before, they year before that and the year before that pretending something's changed.  What have we accomplished since our 2012 President's trophy?  

 

I find it highly insulting that we are told that we don't have the stomach for a rebuild because it takes too long.  Just look at the drafts from 2013 through 2021 and think of what might have been had this team the stomach to have simply done what needed to be done.

U also forgot to add that sometimes rebuilds if done perfectly can go pretty quickly. 
 

LA Kings won the cup in 2014 were still a top team in the pacific for a few years then tore down and rebuilt. 
they’re already better than the Canucks with an absolutely loaded prospect pool. 
 

Anaheim Ducks traded for kesler at the 2015 draft. We’re one of if not the top team in the west for the next few years. tore down and rebuilt. 
theyre already better than the Canucks. And have a good prospect pool as well. 
 

these two teams did it right and it took them 4 maybe 5 years and they’re already fringe playoff teams. And definately better than this Canucks ten year fix it with duct tape and chewing gum embarrassment. 

[combover]

Yeah but really again this is on Previous management it should have been done 8 years ago when everyone and their dog could see how stupid  this path was well everyone except idiot Benning. 
The construction of this club is awful it has been for a while. Some  of us wanted a re build to start  in 2013 acquired picks build and be bad to get the best odds. 

funny thing is we wouldn’t  have done any worse than the Jb refool and we’d be a far better team today. 
Truth is FA needs to sell the team until then we’re f’d
 

[Warhippy]

7 hours ago, -AJ- said:

Buffalo's rebuild started in about 2013, not 2018.

So...did ours.

 

Wait, sorry.  Retool

 

[aGENT]

Yeah, I think the poll is misleading. Rebuild implies moving EVERYONE. Pettersson, Hughes, Demko, Podkolzin etc included.

 

I don't think that should be the aim.

 

We should be moving out all the expensive vets we can get any return for this/next year (Pearson/Myers may have more value/easier to move next year/summer for example). Replace them with warm bodies (short term cap coming back), hopefully a few of the "Schenn character" variety (and perhaps guys we can in turn flip for more picks over the next year or so) and bring in youth, picks and prospects.

 

Finish where we finish, pick high and keep BUILDING.

[Warhippy]

5 hours ago, IBatch said:

Man do we ever need a Pat Quin right now.   Know times are different with the cap (trades aren't as frequent and rather underwhelming as a whole league wide), but we could sure use some good pro scouting ... Lumme, one of the best D's this teams ever had (PKer, PP etc), cost us a second rounder.    McLean ... Sundstrom (and he was great for us),  Momesso, Ronning etc for Butcher ... Nedved for Hedican and Brown.    

 

There were other deals that didn't work out as good, but he was willing to trade away the remnants of the 80's team drafted around a decade earlier, blue chip guys, and add the right vets to the group for the playoffs.   Babcyh, Courtnall, Adams - also brought in BC boys.   Know we aren't going to win every trade, but it sure would be nice to win one right now.   Stajonov for Naslund...ok doesn't have to be that lopsided but sure could use Lumme and Hedican right about now.    

 

Also i wouldn't consider it a rebuild so much as a re-set to finish what was started much like COL did.   Don't expect that either.   That's unrealistic.  But COL was 20 points worse then we were (we were next up), when they lost the lottery and drafted Makar at 4...five years they won a cup, plus they also made the playoffs a couple times first.   Who wouldn't be willing to do that this year?   Drafting Bedard is a foolish expectation, even with the lottery reeling it in a little.    Less then 1/5 chances ... average 2 times a decade IF your the worst throughout.   But a top 3 pick should help us.   Possibly the following season even ... it might take both.  

 

We don't need 2/3 smart trades.   We need 2/3 lopsided ones.  Ones we win.  Most trades make some sense with context added.   IF this team is going to make it over the hump and get to the playoffs with regularity, they need to spend their way out of it with futures.  2/3 trades ... well only is so many guys teams would be interested in.   And we can't afford to keep spending our futures on fixing the present (Dickie ... was that a "smart" trade?...I think it wasn't bad).   We couldn't replace Miller on the open market for what he signed for.   Was that a "smart" move?    There was zero trades on the table Allvin and JR felt were good enough... smart trades is exactly what every GM intends to make, for sure doesn't always work out though.  Garland and OEL yikes.   Was it worth it? 

 

If all paths lead to Bedard then we are in for a treat,  too bad we can't remotely plan for that.  

Keeping in mind, JR is also the guy that though Jason Zucker was a good pick up.  Gave up galchenyuk, addison and the pick that became lambos.  He thought GUdbranson was a good pick up, so much so he traded Pearson for him.  Traded Pronger for Shanahan, he also traded Kirk McLean and Martin Gelinas for Sean Burke, Enrico Ciccone, and Geoff Sanderson.

 

The guy's done over 170 trades in his history.  But some of them....ya know.  The best of which he won due to the other team being in serious cap hell or in dire straits.  But in this instance, we're the team in serious trouble and he's got no wiggle room or assets to make anything positive happen.

 

https://www.capfriendly.com/trades/staff/jim-rutherford

Edited October 25, 2022 by Warhippy

[DSVII]

A rebuild doesn't have to be scorched earth. Those are the 10 year ones. 

 

Keep the young core (demko,hughes,petey) sell the rest and for two years reset and recoup picks/prospects. Sell at the deadline.

 

And hell yea I'm on board

[King Heffy]

1 minute ago, DSVII said:

A rebuild doesn't have to be scorched earth. Those are the 10 year ones. 

 

Keep the young core (demko,hughes,petey) sell the rest and for two years reset and recoup picks/prospects. Sell at the deadline.

 

And hell yea I'm on board

Problem is that those guys may want out pretty quickly in that case, especially Petey.  Scorched earth may be the only option.

[Mustard Tiger]

Hell yeah. I'll die on canuck hill. Nothing phases me at this point, Its not like we are scrapping short term success for long term gain. It's literally been long term pain already.. Without any benefits of it. Time for a change and do what everyone else around us does!

 

Announce a rebuild + return of the black and white skate full time. Fans won't miss any sleep if the team is just honest about the direction of the team and do things majority want! 

[Mustard Tiger]

8 minutes ago, King Heffy said:

Problem is that those guys may want out pretty quickly in that case, especially Petey.  Scorched earth may be the only option.

Yeah. At least Bo and Miller decisions need to he made asap while EP and Hughes can be pushed back. I would die to see 1 season of Bedard, EP and huggy!