The Defense of JB and co

[PhillipBlunt]

51 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said:

there's more than one way to build a team. So we're 5 years from becoming Colorado. So does that mean with some good moves we can be 2013/14 LA in one year? 

 

I actually think we have some interesting comparable to that teams make up with our current group and guys like Podkolzin on the way. We're still missing key pieces in the bottom 6 but I don't think we're far off at all from what that team was.

 

Good point, Jimmy. Not all Stanley Cup contenders or winners are built equally. Not every team has to be perfectly constructed in order to challenge for the Cup. Excellent goaltending, solid positional defense, skill, speed, and the willingness and capability to play physical are all required.

 

I think the Canucks possess quite a few of those traits within the lineup, and some are still wanting. Solid positional defense is probably the biggest missing component. The defense was a tire fire throughout the season, with only a handful of games I saw where the team managed to keep the shots down, and the ones that got through weren't dangerous. Obviously some of that falls on the players, but it mostly falls on Baumgarnter. Hopefully the rumor of Muller possibly joining the coaching staff means Baumgarter is being demoted or fired into the sun. 

[JM_]

7 minutes ago, PhillipBlunt said:

Good point, Jimmy. Not all Stanley Cup contenders or winners are built equally. Not every team has to be perfectly constructed in order to challenge for the Cup. Excellent goaltending, solid positional defense, skill, speed, and the willingness and capability to play physical are all required.

 

I think the Canucks possess quite a few of those traits within the lineup, and some are still wanting. Solid positional defense is probably the biggest missing component. The defense was a tire fire throughout the season, with only a handful of games I saw where the team managed to keep the shots down, and the ones that got through weren't dangerous. Obviously some of that falls on the players, but it mostly falls on Baumgarnter. Hopefully the rumor of Muller possibly joining the coaching staff means Baumgarter is being demoted or fired into the sun. 

the other thing I'd add to the list is some depth when injuries occur. 

 

We saw how the so-called best player in the world was perfectly game planned, and it wasn't with another 12 million dollar player. 

 

I hate these articles that just try to either enrage the fan base, or worse, make people feel like there's no hope for years. Thats horse crap. 

 

I know its not a perfect comparison but I do find it kind of an interesting comparison:

 

Brown - Podkolzin

Carter - Mller

Williams - Boeser

Doughty - Hughes

Kopitar - Petey

Richards - Bo

Quick - Demko

 

We need a lot more size on our bottom 6, but we're a heck of a lot close to this than trying to trash it all and become the current version of the Av's in 10 years. 

[EternalCanuckFan]

On 6/3/2021 at 2:42 AM, Arrow 1983 said:

After reading what I wrote I have found my conclusion.

 

It is my understanding of the re-tool re-build method that we have witness over these years.

 

JB had no choice. He couldn't tear it down. There was nothing to tear it down to (no one to fill those spots)  and nobody he could trade to make it seem like a tear down. So he let the natural progression of the team take place. The contracts he couldn't trade ran out. The core aged and got worse and the benefit was JB could do what he new best, draft young talent. Everything else was a means to ice a team and improve the prospect pool if possible with the little he had to work with all in the name of keeping us the fan engaged. 

I'm not a JB hater but thinking back to the times that fans were hoping that the Canucks would ship out vets on expiring contracts (e.g. Hamhuis), it just felt like there should have been a market for those guys that would have allowed the team to recoup some picks.  In Hamhuis' the situation, the team was not doing well at all so it made no sense to hold on to him.  Now sure, maybe behind the scenes some guys expressly didn't want to be traded, but that doesn't seem to have been the case.

 

By the time Hamhuis left, the Canucks were clearly on the decline, as were the Sedins.  I agree that Benning could not have foreseen Eriksson's steep decline basically from the moment he got to Vancouver, but IMHO, it was clear that the Sedins would not be able to lead the team anymore and that the team was transitioning more towards a group that would be led by Horvat.  Maybe Eriksson was signed to be a supporting veteran for Horvat, but it certainly felt more like a signing for the Sedins (not that I'm blaming the Sedins for this).

 

At the end of the day, I think it comes back to Benning failing to build a new core earlier rather than later and failing to effectively build around the new core.  He has obviously done well with drafting but even his attempts to bring in older prospects like Baertschi, Vey, Clendening, etc. did not work out.  At least in Baertschi's case there was a healthy degree of promise that he could be a significant player for the team, but then injuries struck and something just derailed that relationship.  He managed to turn Gudbranson into a Pearson who, love him or hate him, seems to have a good impact on Horvat.

 

I'm sure all GMs have made plenty of mistakes which is why I don't think Benning is unique in the above and why I was not necessarily clamoring for his dismissal.  I think Benning getting fired was a very plausible outcome after the result of this season however.

 

The thing that gives me some hope as a Canucks fan is that Benning and his team have had a string of success with picks in the last few years which is something I don't recall seeing to this degree in all the years that I have been following the Canucks.  With smarter and more efficient cap and contract management (something that Benning has not done well), I think the team has a chance to be very good with this young core, but probably not without at least another year of pain.  We'll see if Benning survives that.

[combover]

The fact you need to defend him says everything about the job he’s done.

 

Sooner or later he’ll figure it out.

what’s that saying about a 

dogs Ass sooner or later the sun will hit it.

the law of averages  has moved into his favour he’s been wrong and failed so many times he’ll have to be right once ( maybe) . 

 

[Fred65]

1 hour ago, wallstreetamigo said:

No they didn't.

 

They got their core by recognizing the landscape and maximizing the benefits of being awful for a decade. They were not accidentally bad or intentionally bad. They just didnt go all out every year trying to find quick fixes. Pretty much every move they made was with the long term goal in mind. And its why they are so well built now.

 

Benning got his core by being awful for 7 years. The difference is he resisted taking full advantage of being awful or he might be much better off now.

Plus of course Colorado had the intellect of Joe Sakic working for them, he's made ( or his scouts ) have made some astute pick in the draft but only has one pick 1st O/A so there picks are similar to Vcr's. Sakic became GM in 2013. They are not a further 2 years away but in fact 1st O/A in the league

 

NHL Hockey Standings | NHL.com

[D-Money]

2 hours ago, Honky Cat said:

I guess the Sabres are going to be the next powerhouse then?

Maybe. It wasn’t too long ago that Colorado were being hailed as one of the league’s worst tire fires. 

[JDLax16]

I agree with everything. Seven more years!

[wallstreetamigo]

8 hours ago, Jimmy McGill said:

why do we need to be "elite" cup contenders? a lot of good cup contenders have made the distance. We need to be a more compete team, but once you're in you can be LA or you can be Tampa. 

To be LA you need to be able to play stifling defensively while having a hot goalie and timely clutch offense.

 

Other than the potential of a hot goalie, that isnt the Canucks.

 

To be Tampa? Lets just say a whole lot of things have to be done much better for the Canucks to ever get there.

 

The fallacy that just getting to the playoffs anything can happen is just not actually true. Making it through 4 rounds isnt only about luck. Sure having a hot goalie and no major injuries helps. But you cant plan on those things with any certainty. But you still actually have to have a deep team, play solid defensively, and get offensive contributions from throughout your lineup.

 

The Canucks have a long way to go to have any of that.

[iinatcc]

1 hour ago, wallstreetamigo said:

To be LA you need to be able to play stifling defensively while having a hot goalie and timely clutch offense.

 

I get so frustrated that the LA Kings have won 2 cups. Not because they didn't deserve it but because they got there by being one of the lowest scoring teams in the respective regular seasons and magically turned it on the moment the playoffs started. 

[JM_]

9 hours ago, wallstreetamigo said:

To be LA you need to be able to play stifling defensively while having a hot goalie and timely clutch offense.

 

Other than the potential of a hot goalie, that isnt the Canucks.

 

you're talking coaching style. When you look at the personnel, there are many similarities. 

 

We're also close to WPG as a model as well. We need to add bigger players with skill, but thats very possible though more than just the draft. 

 

We won't be "exactly" like either but we are close in personnel and being competitive to these two than Tampa or Colorado. Its dumb imo for these click bait articles to lament that we're 10 years away from something we aren't trying to model. 

[NewbieCanuckFan]

On 6/3/2021 at 3:23 PM, Hairy Kneel said:

I agree with what the twins contributed to our Canucks, but do not consider their last few years as contributing to the rebuild. They took a lot of cap and ice time. Of course I'm being more objective about their roles, more the cost loss ratio to the rebuild. I think they'll be in the HOF for sure, but we spent so much to keep their playoff dream alive. 

One half the cap of Loui Eriksson but still three times the effectiveness as that player.  

Edited June 5, 2021 by NewbieCanuckFan

[Pickly]

Did anybody catch Jannik Hansen on 650 yesterday afternoon? This guy needs a job in the organization. He’s so upfront and honest and refreshing to listen to. 

[Honky Cat]

18 hours ago, wallstreetamigo said:

No they didn't.

 

They got their core by recognizing the landscape and maximizing the benefits of being awful for a decade. They were not accidentally bad or intentionally bad. They just didnt go all out every year trying to find quick fixes. Pretty much every move they made was with the long term goal in mind. And its why they are so well built now.

 

Benning got his core by being awful for 7 years. The difference is he resisted taking full advantage of being awful or he might be much better off now.

They planned to be bad for a decade ? lol .I call BS.

I guess the Leafs and the Oilers around that time (who were equally futile) recognized the landsape as well.

The Canucks signalled that they would not rebuild, before Benning was even hired.

Get the right guy.

[wallstreetamigo]

1 hour ago, Jimmy McGill said:

you're talking coaching style. When you look at the personnel, there are many similarities. 

 

We're also close to WPG as a model as well. We need to add bigger players with skill, but thats very possible though more than just the draft. 

 

We won't be "exactly" like either but we are close in personnel and being competitive to these two than Tampa or Colorado. Its dumb imo for these click bait articles to lament that we're 10 years away from something we aren't trying to model. 

I don't see the Canucks having a team of players that can play a heavy, physical style like WPG at all at this point. And if they do draft players to help there it will be 3+ years before those guys are in the lineup.

 

They also don't have either the forwards or defensemen to play a structured defensive style like LA favors.

 

Coaching certainly plays a role but we have the same coaches so the style is unlikely to significantly change.

 

This article was well reasoned and didnt lament being 10 years out.

[Honky Cat]

17 hours ago, Fred65 said:

Plus of course Colorado had the intellect of Joe Sakic working for them, he's made ( or his scouts ) have made some astute pick in the draft but only has one pick 1st O/A so there picks are similar to Vcr's. Sakic became GM in 2013. They are not a further 2 years away but in fact 1st O/A in the league

 

NHL Hockey Standings | NHL.com

The intellect of Joe Sakic lol.

Before he was even hired as GM they had MacKinnon, O Reilly, Landeskog, Barrie,Duchene. There are elite young assets.A product of a decade of sucking.

'but only has one 1st OA'  (who happened to be MacKinnon).How many top 4 picks have the Canucks had?

[wallstreetamigo]

6 minutes ago, Honky Cat said:

They planned to be bad for a decade ? lol .I call BS.

I guess the Leafs and the Oilers around that time (who were equally futile) recognized the landsape as well.

The Canucks signalled that they would not rebuild, before Benning was even hired.

Get the right guy.

They didnt plan to be bad. They just pulled the plug early in years where it was obvious they would be and took maximum advantage of a bad situation.

[JM_]

10 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said:

I don't see the Canucks having a team of players that can play a heavy, physical style like WPG at all at this point. And if they do draft players to help there it will be 3+ years before those guys are in the lineup.

 

They also don't have either the forwards or defensemen to play a structured defensive style like LA favors.

 

Coaching certainly plays a role but we have the same coaches so the style is unlikely to significantly change.

 

This article was well reasoned and didnt lament being 10 years out.

what is it about Miller and Bo that you think they wouldn't be able to play that way? or Podz? or Hoglander? or Motte? 

 

whats preventing us from getting bigger bodies via trade or free agency? what about Gadjovich? 

 

if you're stuck on the media-driving narrative of 3+... no wait 3 to 5.... or its is 10? years then sure. 

 

We have the core pieces to create a contending team a lot sooner than the media drivel is trying to push in this market. 

[wallstreetamigo]

2 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said:

what is it about Miller and Bo that you think they wouldn't be able to play that way? or Podz? or Hoglander? or Motte? 

 

whats preventing us from getting bigger bodies via trade or free agency? what about Gadjovich? 

 

if you're stuck on the media-driving narrative of 3+... no wait 3 to 5.... or its is 10? years then sure. 

 

We have the core pieces to create a contending team a lot sooner than the media drivel is trying to push in this market. 

Having a handful of players who can play that style is not the same as having a whole bunch of them.

 

Given his record with ufa signings especially Benning has a long way to go to prove he can acquire quality players atcap hits that will allow him to properly build out a competitive team.

 

Gadjovich is a work in progress. His skating is pretty average. Motte is good but injuries are starting to become a real concern. 

 

Benning himself said they are 2 years away. But the media saying they are 3-5 is some over the top sky is falling scenario? Cmon.

 

We have the core pieces to build a conpetitive team. Too bad most of our defense is old and overpaid, our bottom 6 is almost completely garbage that cant chip in offensively and is not great defensively, and our 2nd line is forced to be our defensive shutdown line as a result.

 

I think people underestimate just how poorly this team is constructed and coached too.

[Chicken.]

2 hours ago, Pickly said:

Did anybody catch Jannik Hansen on 650 yesterday afternoon? This guy needs a job in the organization. He’s so upfront and honest and refreshing to listen to. 

Youre doing something right when your nickname is the honey badger, sign him with the Sedins to staff

 

[Hairy Kneel]

2 hours ago, Pickly said:

Did anybody catch Jannik Hansen on 650 yesterday afternoon? This guy needs a job in the organization. He’s so upfront and honest and refreshing to listen to. 

I know right!! Scoop him up before someone steals him like they did Burr and Malhotra.