[Rumour] Bo Horvat Trade/Contract Talks

[DrJockitch]

5 minutes ago, grandmaster said:

I’m sorry if I’m in the minority here but I do NOT want any trades and go full rebuild right now.  I want first to keep the team as is and then make some adjustment at the end of the year if we are clearly not making the playoffs and unable to re-sign Bo
 

Let’s keep marching….

 

That’s a road to nowhere. 

[Elias Pettersson]

2 minutes ago, flat land fish said:

He would add size and power down the middle and would fit their power play because he doesn’t need the puck much but can obviously finish.  If Bo is traded out we can make pretty much any deal work by retaining some salary.

Hughes and Hischier are both averaging over a point per game.  The Devils are 4th in the league in scoring.  They don't need BO.  BO is not a play driver on the PP, he simply plays the bumper spot and takes passes from Miller and Petey.  New Jersey also don't need to sign him to an 8x8 contract.  They need to lock up Bratt to a long-term deal and they will probably try and re-sign one or two of their Dmen.  They also have Luke Hughes and others coming up the pipe.  

 

New Jersey is looking good for the next several years and could be a dynasty in the making.  They were horrible for years but now with all of that young talent they are looking to become the next great NHL team...

[DrJockitch]

Just now, Elias Pettersson said:

Hughes and Hischier are both averaging over a point per game.  The Devils are 4th in the league in scoring.  They don't need BO.  BO is not a play driver on the PP, he simply plays the bumper spot and takes passes from Miller and Petey.  New Jersey also don't need to sign him to an 8x8 contract.  They need to lock up Bratt to a long-term deal and they will probably try and re-sign one or two of their Dmen.  They also have Luke Hughes and others coming up the pipe.  

 

New Jersey is looking good for the next several years and could be a dynasty in the making.  They were horrible for years but now with all of that young talent they are looking to become the next great NHL team...

Amazing what rebuilding does. 

[saucypass]

2 minutes ago, DrJockitch said:

Amazing what rebuilding does. 

And 2 first overall picks (not taking away from the fact that we need to rebuild of course). 

[Warhippy]

10 minutes ago, saucypass said:

And 2 first overall picks (not taking away from the fact that we need to rebuild of course). 

Ya, sure helps having multiple lottery wins as opposed to being pushed to the back of the line

 

Just imagine the following

 

Any two of 

 

Ekblad

Matthews

Hischier/Makar

Dahlin

J Hughes

 

For the lottery wins we could have had drafting top 10 since 2014.  Kind of unfair isn't it?

[R3aL]

1 hour ago, grandmaster said:

I’m sorry if I’m in the minority here but I do NOT want any trades and go full rebuild right now.  I want first to keep the team as is and then make some adjustment at the end of the year if we are clearly not making the playoffs and unable to re-sign Bo
 

Let’s keep marching….

 

So you want to march  Bo to free agency if he doesn’t want to sign? 

[R3aL]

55 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

Ya, sure helps having multiple lottery wins as opposed to being pushed to the back of the line

 

Just imagine the following

 

Any two of 

 

Ekblad

Matthews

Hischier/Makar

Dahlin

J Hughes

 

For the lottery wins we could have had drafting top 10 since 2014.  Kind of unfair isn't it?

I mean Hughes/Petey we kinda struck gold 

[Warhippy]

Just now, R3aL said:

I mean Hughes/Petey we kinda struck gold 

Let's remove their drafts from the equation and remove Makar and Dahlin.

 

Had we won the draft for any of the other 1st overall players, where would we be as a club?  Ekblad and Matthews with hughes and Pettersson....

[R3aL]

2 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

Let's remove their drafts from the equation and remove Makar and Dahlin.

 

Had we won the draft for any of the other 1st overall players, where would we be as a club?  Ekblad and Matthews with hughes and Pettersson....

who knows its chaos theory. it changes everything. Matthews changes our rebuild too making us a little bit better getting worse drafts picks each year after.

 

I hear ya we've been unlucky with he lottery balls no doubt about it I just dont really see it as an excuse.

 

I think its our overall philosophy and commitment to them building long term thats been the problem of our "rebuild"

[DownUndaCanuck]

Even if we do end up in a playoff hunt and competitive down the stretch, and Bo wants to re-sign with us, it's going to be tricky. Our numbers aren't pretty next year cap-wise. Miller gets a 3M raise and no one really comes off the books. Bo is surely going to command around 8M and that's absolutely fair. That's a 3M raise in itself. Ethan Bear is currently on a 1.8M deal and surely deserves a raise, say to about 3.5M (if we're lucky) so that's another 1.7M raise. Hoglander and Burroughs can surely be re-signed on the cheap so not much of a raise there. Schenn's deal is up but surely if we're doing well, he's only 33 and still playing well and could revert to a bottom pairing role so could earn a similar 800-900K contract, so no change there. Finally there's Kuzmenko, who knows how much he'll want but if he continues at this 25-30 goal pace, he deserves 5.5-6M easily.

 

That leaves us with 13.7M more cap than we have right now.

 

Looking at our current lineup (as of right now), we have Garland at 4.95M and Boeser at 6.6M playing on our 3rd line. We have Myers at 6M playing 15 minutes on our bottom pairing. These are the contracts which have to give. I have no problems paying Miller and Bo 8M when they play key roles in our lineup, or OEL copping 7.2M when he's still in our top-4, but we've got 17.6M in cap space tied up with 2 third liners and a third pairing defenceman.

 

The first easy option is to flip Myers to whoever can fit his cap for a pick, like a 3rd rounder (I've said this before, a bit like the Nate Schmidt trades). We see these deals from time to time, especially around the trade deadline. Usually it's after some cap is cleared up though. The next (trickier) move would be to trade Garland for a defenceman 1-for-1. We'd probably take around 3-4M in cap back from this anyway (eg. Peeke I've floated as an example but there's plenty of other guys who fit this mould).

 

Finally, we're still around 5M over the cap. The trade which makes the most sense for the organization is to trade one of our many expensive wingers (Boeser, Mikheyev, Kuzmenko) for a top pick or defensive prospect. It sounds crazy, but then we're re-structuring this team and focussing on the most important areas - center, and defencemen, instead of wingers. I'd rather we keep Petey, Bo and Miller than keep a bunch of our expensive wingers. I'd hate to lose Boeser, have always been a fan, but if losing him is what it takes to keep Horvat and pay him his 8M then we should do it - and we can get a 1st round pick or decent defensive prospect out of him. Only other option is to keep Brock and let Kuzmenko walk for nothing. Let our kids come up on wing and rotate around our top centers. The other obvious move is flipping Pearson for a pick but not sure how willing other teams will be considering he's been injured and struggled this year, but he can still carry some playoff potential. 

 

Ready for next year:

 

Mikheyev - Petey - Kuzmenko/Boeser

Miller - Horvat - Podkolzin

Hoglander - Lazar - Lockwood

Joshua - Studnicka - Dries

 

Hughes - Bear

OEL - Peeke

Rathbone - Schenn

Burroughs

 

 

[grandmaster]

18 minutes ago, R3aL said:

So you want to march  Bo to free agency if he doesn’t want to sign? 

They are gonna sign him. In the unlikely event they can’t and we don’t make the playoffs, then it’s a no brainer. Trade him.

[Coconuts]

2 hours ago, grandmaster said:

I’m sorry if I’m in the minority here but I do NOT want any trades and go full rebuild right now.  I want first to keep the team as is and then make some adjustment at the end of the year if we are clearly not making the playoffs and unable to re-sign Bo
 

Let’s keep marching….

 

You don't have to be sorry, you're as entitled to your view as the rest of us 

 

But yes, you probably are in the minority 

[Coconuts]

1 hour ago, DownUndaCanuck said:

Even if we do end up in a playoff hunt and competitive down the stretch, and Bo wants to re-sign with us, it's going to be tricky. Our numbers aren't pretty next year cap-wise. Miller gets a 3M raise and no one really comes off the books. Bo is surely going to command around 8M and that's absolutely fair. That's a 3M raise in itself. Ethan Bear is currently on a 1.8M deal and surely deserves a raise, say to about 3.5M (if we're lucky) so that's another 1.7M raise. Hoglander and Burroughs can surely be re-signed on the cheap so not much of a raise there. Schenn's deal is up but surely if we're doing well, he's only 33 and still playing well and could revert to a bottom pairing role so could earn a similar 800-900K contract, so no change there. Finally there's Kuzmenko, who knows how much he'll want but if he continues at this 25-30 goal pace, he deserves 5.5-6M easily.

 

That leaves us with 13.7M more cap than we have right now.

 

Looking at our current lineup (as of right now), we have Garland at 4.95M and Boeser at 6.6M playing on our 3rd line. We have Myers at 6M playing 15 minutes on our bottom pairing. These are the contracts which have to give. I have no problems paying Miller and Bo 8M when they play key roles in our lineup, or OEL copping 7.2M when he's still in our top-4, but we've got 17.6M in cap space tied up with 2 third liners and a third pairing defenceman.

 

The first easy option is to flip Myers to whoever can fit his cap for a pick, like a 3rd rounder (I've said this before, a bit like the Nate Schmidt trades). We see these deals from time to time, especially around the trade deadline. Usually it's after some cap is cleared up though. The next (trickier) move would be to trade Garland for a defenceman 1-for-1. We'd probably take around 3-4M in cap back from this anyway (eg. Peeke I've floated as an example but there's plenty of other guys who fit this mould).

 

Finally, we're still around 5M over the cap. The trade which makes the most sense for the organization is to trade one of our many expensive wingers (Boeser, Mikheyev, Kuzmenko) for a top pick or defensive prospect. It sounds crazy, but then we're re-structuring this team and focussing on the most important areas - center, and defencemen, instead of wingers. I'd rather we keep Petey, Bo and Miller than keep a bunch of our expensive wingers. I'd hate to lose Boeser, have always been a fan, but if losing him is what it takes to keep Horvat and pay him his 8M then we should do it - and we can get a 1st round pick or decent defensive prospect out of him. Only other option is to keep Brock and let Kuzmenko walk for nothing. Let our kids come up on wing and rotate around our top centers. The other obvious move is flipping Pearson for a pick but not sure how willing other teams will be considering he's been injured and struggled this year, but he can still carry some playoff potential. 

 

Ready for next year:

 

Mikheyev - Petey - Kuzmenko/Boeser

Miller - Horvat - Podkolzin

Hoglander - Lazar - Lockwood

Joshua - Studnicka - Dries

 

Hughes - Bear

OEL - Peeke

Rathbone - Schenn

Burroughs

 

 

This doesn't really address our defense though, even if you somehow nab Peeke that right side doesn't look particularly strong. One of the biggest issues for the Canucks, with the roster they've currently got, is that too much cap is allocated to the forward group. 

 

Bear doesn't strike me as a top 4 lock, he looks more like a 5-4 tweener at best who can step up and play that role if you don't have anyone better. Which.. in our top 4.. we currently don't. Hard to say what Rathbone is too, not sure I'd project him as a full time NHL'er. Fortunately we have plenty of depth/bottom pairing guys in the system at the moment. That defense really don't look much better than what we've got now though, and what we have now isn't good enough as is imo. 

[R3aL]

1 hour ago, grandmaster said:

They are gonna sign him. In the unlikely event they can’t and we don’t make the playoffs, then it’s a no brainer. Trade him.

So the scenario of being 2-4 pts out of the playoffs but pressing with bo hornet unsigned isn't possible?

 

Just saying your march on scenario said no trades till end of year I was just responding to that.

 

I am not as confident they are going to sign him. Bo may not want to sign here. His heart may be here but he still wants to Win now and play somewhere he is valued fairly.

 

I don think its certain yet. I think trading him is a more likely outcome with how things are currently.

 

The event we miss the playoffs is more likely than making them right now. Statistically that is. We are 3 pts out of the playoffs right now. Stats show by American Thanksgiving if you are under 500 the chances are extremely slim.

[R3aL]

Today on Radio Dance talked about how Bo Horvat met with Easton* and they sold him on a new hockey stick with a higher flex and lower kick point then he was use too.

 

He spent all offseason working on his shot maybe even with a coach wasn't clear on that.

 

And the style of shooting is how Bedard shoots with a similar style stick. Apparently the kick point and release is very deceptive and harder for goalies to read.

 

Pretty interesting and it shows how hardworking Bo is.

 

1 offseason he completely redefined his skating turning a weakness into a strength.

 

this offseason he learnt a new way to shoot and its playing off huge right now.

 

A lot to love about Bo it would be sad to lose him.

 

*maybe it wasn't Easton but it was a hockey stick manufacturing brand and they sold him on trying something new and he tried it out and worked on it all summer apparently 

 

Edited November 26, 2022 by R3aL

[Alflives]

2 hours ago, grandmaster said:

They are gonna sign him. In the unlikely event they can’t and we don’t make the playoffs, then it’s a no brainer. Trade him.

What if we are in a similar positions n to last seas, when the TDL comes around?  If Bo isn’t signed do we keep him, and hope to make the playoffs, and risk losing him as a UFA July 1, or do we trade him at the TDL and be certain we don’t lose the asset for nothing, like we traded Motte last year?  

[Canucklehead73]

2 hours ago, DownUndaCanuck said:

Miller gets a 3M raise and no one really comes off the books. 

 

Finally there's Kuzmenko, who knows how much he'll want but if he continues at this 25-30 goal pace, he deserves 5.5-6M easily.

 

 

 

 

 

 

We have 2.4 mill in dead cap coming off the books...

 

Kuzmenko doesn't have the foot speed imho and I'm sure his contract is designed to showcase him for a payday, both him and Boeser can put up points but have no defensive ability due to their lack of speed... I'd be ok with trades on both fronts.

 

 

[Alflives]

7 minutes ago, Canucklehead73 said:

We have 2.4 mill in dead cap coming off the books...

 

Kuzmenko doesn't have the foot speed imho and I'm sure his contract is designed to showcase him for a payday, both him and Boeser can put up points but have no defensive ability due to their lack of speed... I'd be ok with trades on both fronts.

 

 

Boeser, with how he’s performed and his contract, likely have negative value.  So with him we would need to take back an equally ugly contract.  Rather keep Brock.

Kuz has value, but is a coming UFA, so would only be a rental to whomever w3 traded him to.  Is he really the type of player teams trade for at the TDL?  Not see much value in either, to be honest.  

[mll]

9 hours ago, DrJockitch said:

Amazing what rebuilding does. 

Pettersson and Hughes are akin to 1st round picks with Pettersson picked the year they took Hischier.

 

Wouldn't call what NJD did a rebuild either.  NJD sold the years they were out of the playoffs but they traded quite a few of their picks in hope to improve their team on the fly.  At one point one of their owners was even complaining that they had picks/prospects to improve the team and there was no reason that they missed the playoffs - Shero got dismissed shortly after.

 

Lamoriello had always refused to rebuild.  When Shero took over in May 2015, NJD were an old and slow team with an inexistent prospect pool.  Shero went on to trade draft picks for Johansson, Palmieri, Beau Bennett, Mirco Mueller among others.  He switched Larsson for Hall and Henrique for Sami Vatanen.  They even traded for Subban who was 30 at the time of the trade and gave up a 2nd+3rd for Gusev that same year (2019 off-season).  They did leverage their cap space to take on Savard's LTIR contract and got a 2nd round pick for it - used it in the Johansson trade.  They were more attempting a rebuild on the fly but were simply not a very good team.

 

They are top in all key defensive metrics this season but only Severson was drafted by NJD.  Siegenthaler, Marino and Graves were acquired for futures.  Hamilton and Smith were free agent signings.

 

It seems more how they re-tooled the difference.  NJD didn't trade their 1st round picks.  They also didn't extend players that didn't fit the age group of their pillars - that's how Fitzgerald calls Hughes and Hischier.  Hughes was drafted in 2019.  Hall was traded that December - he was a 28 year old upcoming UFA.  They tried to get him on a short-term deal but he was looking for long term so they moved on.  Idem with Palmieri and Coleman.

 

It's also roster construction.  Already under Shero, NJD was saying that there are a lot of teams with a lot of good players but they don't do well because they haven't built a team.   Fitzgerald who took over in January 2020 says you don't build a team by hoarding talent.  You need complementary players too - the pieces have to all fit together.  He talks of the importance of complementary players like Tatar, Haula, Palat, Woods.  He also insists on full buy-in from players and how everyone needs to have a role, to understand that role and accept it.

 

They also decided early that they would be a fast team.  Already several years back Cassidy was saying that they are not the NJD of old but are one of the fastest teams.  Barzal now says he doesn't think he's ever played a team that fast.  NJD is a fast spaced and fast skating team - their speed is a considerable advantage and an integral part of their identity.

 

From 2015-2019 seems rather a wash and even maybe a slight edge to Vancouver in the 1st round.  It's from 2020 where they differed.

2014    Virtanen (6) McCann (24)            Quenneville (30th)        Benning's 1st draft and Lamoriello's last

2015    Boeser (23)                                 Pavel Zacha (6th)         Sheros' 1st draft

2016   Juolevi (5th)                                 McLeod (12th)                  

2017    Pettersson (5)                             Hischier (1)                       

2018    Hughes (7)                                  Ty Smith (17)

2019    Podkolzin (10)                             Hughes (1)

2020    -                                                  Holtz (7) + Mercer (18) + Mukhamadullin (20)         Fitzgerald's 1st draft

2021    -                                                  Hughes (4)

 

Edited November 26, 2022 by mll

[steviewonder20]

5 hours ago, R3aL said:

So the scenario of being 2-4 pts out of the playoffs but pressing with bo hornet unsigned isn't possible?

 

Just saying your march on scenario said no trades till end of year I was just responding to that.

 

I am not as confident they are going to sign him. Bo may not want to sign here. His heart may be here but he still wants to Win now and play somewhere he is valued fairly.

 

I don think its certain yet. I think trading him is a more likely outcome with how things are currently.

 

The event we miss the playoffs is more likely than making them right now. Statistically that is. We are 3 pts out of the playoffs right now. Stats show by American Thanksgiving if you are under 500 the chances are extremely slim.

https://www.moneypuck.com/predictions.htm  Current playoff odds for the Canucks are 13%. ‘You mean there’s chance?”