Devil's Advocate for the Hronek trade

[TGT68]

I just saw all the crying that we needed to get a RHD and a C back for horvat. They did exactly that in two parts. Ending up with 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Horvat plus a second

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

for

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Beauvillier, Raty, Hronek and a 4th.   

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

All players younger then Horvat and with upside.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Now everyone is freaking that they went out and got what everyone wanted them to go out and get.  

 

Also Chychrun is a LHD and went for more then Hronek

 

McCabe is a LHD and went for more then Hronek

 

Really think you all just like to complain.  

[awalk]

I very much like the potential of the player 

 

Super confused about the timing of the deal when the Red Wings weren't even shopping him. 

 

Now cheering for NYI to win the cup so the pick is terrible. And praying we can recoup a 2nd round pick or 2 over the next 2 drafts. 

[iinatcc]

1 hour ago, Pears said:

Couldn’t agree more honestly. I’ve mentioned the timing which I can sort of agree with but in the grand scheme of things I couldn’t care less. Hronek is the type of defenseman we have been dying for for years. 25 years old, right shot, 39 points in 60 games on a meh Detroit team and all we had to give up was our 2nd and a 1st that will in all likely hood be in the late teens-early twenties range? We couldn’t have passed that up. If the Islanders get to the second round or later then we’re laughing honestly. 

I think I would have been contended with Rasmus Andersson 26 years old RHD, the player Calgary got by using Vancouver's 2015 2nd? 

 

Would have been nice to find that RHD d-man using only a 2nd instead of throwing away that 2nd and giving up a 1st and 2nd this year.

 

I know the reply will be we are looking things in hindsight. But shouldn't this be a cautionary tale and reminder not to give away your picks? 

 

And before people say you can't compare Baertschi to Hroneck, don't forget the trade reaction here for Baertschi was quite positive.

 

Case in point is one comment below 

 

 

[Boudrias]

4 minutes ago, iinatcc said:

I think I would have been contended with Rasmus Andersson 26 years old RHD, the player Calgary got by using Vancouver's 2015 2nd? 

 

Would have been nice to find that RHD d-man using only a 2nd instead of throwing away that 2nd and giving up a 1st and 2nd this year.

 

I know the reply will be we are looking things in hindsight. But shouldn't this be a cautionary tale and reminder not to give away your picks? 

 

And before people say you can't compare Baertschi to Hroneck, don't forget the trade reaction here for Baertschi was quite positive.

 

Case in point is one comment below 

 

 

I think it is a difficult, if not impossible, effort to compare the value of draft picks from different time periods. The Andersson pick is a good example. My quick question would be whether Andersson would have developed successfully in a very weak Vancouver roster considering how quickly management was throwing their picks into the fire. 
 

I liked PA’s process of looking at each situation, evaluating the options and moving forward with the one that delivers the most value to the team. Obviously there is a dependence on the evaluation process and the skills of the scouting department. Assuming an equal development track for a player in two different orgs has a lot of assumptions associated with that. 

[Maniwaki Canuck]

About the timing of this deal:  It's not a "win now" move or about being "buyers" at the deadline.  The guy is 25 and likely has 8 good years ahead of him.  It was an opportunistic acquisition of a player we really need for the future.  Yes, it would have been better to have drafted our own equivalent 4-5 years ago, but we didn't. 

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, Timråfan said:

Yes, no way Petey and Hughes want to stay with a team that tank on purpose.

They want at least compete in playoffs.

 

If it doesen’t work out as planned PA has to do a rebuild. But that is 4 years forward when we know how it is. Then it’s trading away Petey, Hughes and Demko to a contender.

 

I haven’t got a clue why people want us to trade away the good stuff premature.

That is really the Benning way.

You did great until the last sentence.   JB didn't trade anyone but Kesler and he demanded out at 31.   He also respected contracts doled out by MG right down to Hansen (great support player all claused up).   Didn't trade Markstrom.   Added with TT.   Bieksa (second) Burrows and Hansen were all well past their expiry date - but they waived for us eventually. Let's be accurate.   JB worked with what he had - and it was pretty bad.   8 years of nothing in the pipe until Horvat on the 9th year.    Hutton.   Traded for seconds and got a second (Torts) ... then tried to accelerate and cut corners.   For sure we are paying for that, this is the first time since Jovo (and we didn't trade him did we!) we've had a great player coming up to free agency, we traded in forever.  Isn't it.    If you're talking about Forsling and McAan ... that's really not a lot of "good stuff" is it.    

[IBatch]

18 minutes ago, iinatcc said:

I think I would have been contended with Rasmus Andersson 26 years old RHD, the player Calgary got by using Vancouver's 2015 2nd? 

 

Would have been nice to find that RHD d-man using only a 2nd instead of throwing away that 2nd and giving up a 1st and 2nd this year.

 

I know the reply will be we are looking things in hindsight. But shouldn't this be a cautionary tale and reminder not to give away your picks? 

 

And before people say you can't compare Baertschi to Hroneck, don't forget the trade reaction here for Baertschi was quite positive.

 

Case in point is one comment below 

 

 

Would we have even drafted him?  Can't do that.  Every single team in the league can do that too.   His track record with seconds weren't great.   Ok.   Demko and Hogs was it?   And Lind.   Anyways every team can feel stupid for what TB drafted.  

Edited March 5, 2023 by IBatch

[iinatcc]

3 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Would we have even drafted him?  Can't do that.  Every single team in the league can do that too.   His track record with seconds weren't great.   Ok.   Demko and Hogs was it?   And Lind.   Anyways every team can feel stupid for what TB drafted.  

Well Benning is a good drafter wasn't he ? 

I found this 2015 trade to be extra hilarious for all the wrong reasons (I mentioned them in a previous thread)

 

Anyways the bigger point is to show valuable these picks are

Edited March 5, 2023 by iinatcc

[R3aL]

1 hour ago, eeeeergh said:

Something else to think about: Chychrun plays an average of 56 games per season. 

 

Hronek plays 74.5 

 

 

Ya I’ve talked about that on other posts too and I put his durability issues there in my long ramble post 

 

I swear if chychrun was a Canuck he be hurt even more often lol

[Timråfan]

2 minutes ago, IBatch said:

You did great until the last sentence.   JB didn't trade anyone but Kesler and he demanded out at 31.   He also respected contracts doled out by MG right down to Hansen (great support player all claused up).   Didn't trade Markstrom.   Added with TT.   Bieksa (second) Burrows and Hansen were all well past their expiry date - but they waived for us eventually. Let's be accurate.   JB worked with what he had - and it was pretty bad.   8 years of nothing in the pipe until Horvat on the 9th year.    Hutton.   Traded for seconds and got a second (Torts) ... then tried to accelerate and cut corners.   For sure we are paying for that, this is the first time since Jovo (and we didn't trade him did we!) we've had a great player coming up to free agency, we traded in forever.  Isn't it.    If you're talking about Forsling and McAan ... that's really not a lot of "good stuff" is it.    

Go with the flow went to far this til but…

He traded away Loui premature. 

If he had kept him one year more we would have a lot of cap. Instead we got OEL and Garland.

[NewbieCanuckFan]

11 minutes ago, IBatch said:

You did great until the last sentence.   JB didn't trade anyone but Kesler and he demanded out at 31.   He also respected contracts doled out by MG right down to Hansen (great support player all claused up).   Didn't trade Markstrom.   Added with TT.   Bieksa (second) Burrows and Hansen were all well past their expiry date - but they waived for us eventually. Let's be accurate.   JB worked with what he had - and it was pretty bad.   8 years of nothing in the pipe until Horvat on the 9th year.    Hutton.   Traded for seconds and got a second (Torts) ... then tried to accelerate and cut corners.   For sure we are paying for that, this is the first time since Jovo (and we didn't trade him did we!) we've had a great player coming up to free agency, we traded in forever.  Isn't it.    If you're talking about Forsling and McAan ... that's really not a lot of "good stuff" is it.    

His biggest failure was Willie Desjardins & Travis Green.  That's *ALL* on him.  Those two alone is reason enough for him going to the EI office.  Remember that LEGIT franchise player (EP) that he drafted (and should get all the credit for) was looking like a bust under Green.  Nobody (outside of goaltending which we had guys developing in that position since the Nonis years) on the farm developing.  None.  That's all on him.  Can't use Gillis as an excuse with respect to the farm seven years later.  He had a ton of **** to cleanup at the start (Gillis mess left behind) but he hardly did much to change that (farm system).

Edited March 5, 2023 by NewbieCanuckFan

[Jester13]

1 hour ago, TGT68 said:

I just saw all the crying that we needed to get a RHD and a C back for horvat. They did exactly that in two parts. Ending up with 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Horvat plus a second

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

for

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Beauvillier, Raty, Hronek and a 4th.   

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

All players younger then Horvat and with upside.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Now everyone is freaking that they went out and got what everyone wanted them to go out and get.  

 

Also Chychrun is a LHD and went for more then Hronek

 

McCabe is a LHD and went for more then Hronek

 

Really think you all just like to complain.  

It's not about complaining for the sake of it. Lots of fans and pundits wanted to see the Canucks exercise a little patience for once, like Yzerman, Blake, and Sakic do - like Yzerman did with the trades he just made.

 

Yzerman said in his tdl presser that he sees them contending in a few years against the likes of Ottawa, Buffalo, NJ, etc., of tomorrow, and not against the likes of Boston, Carolina, NY, Pitts, etc. of today.

 

He knows a patient approach is the more tested method of building a contender for years to come, not just byilding a competitive team that can make the playoffs.

 

We, on the other hand, are looking short term and trying to be competitive against the likes of the Avalanche, Edmonton, Vegas, etc. of today, and not planning for being contenders for years to come against the likes of Anaheim, LA, Chicago, etc. of tomorrow.

 

We'll end up doing what we always do, which is try to make the playoffs each year and fall flat, only to pick mid-first round.

 

TLDR: fans want the Yzermanplan but we're getting the Insanityplan

[IBatch]

27 minutes ago, iinatcc said:

Well Benning is a good drafter wasn't he ? 

I found this 2015 trade to be extra hilarious for all the wrong reasons (I mentioned them in a previous thread)

 

Anyways the bigger point is to show valuable these picks are

He was so far - an above average drafter for where he picked.   So he averaged picking 7 during this teams down years (and yes absolutely the lottery wasn't nice to us otherwise it it would closer to 5)... over a four year period BUT drafted like he had the 3rd overall pick AND that included the OJ stuff.   Could he have drafted better - absolutely.     Did he find high end talent, that we haven't seen since Bure?   Likely. 

 

Edit:  Ottawa is a great example of a team that hits on its later picks.   The absolute fact we haven't had a hit in the 3rd round that is an impact player since Nonis's first draft is ugly as f!ck.     OTT - just go back and look at the team that was one OT goal away from the final that blew itself up before they were even in their prime.     EK is the best defenseman of his era - even with the achilles heal foot stomp from Cooke that wasted five years.   15th overall?   Zib, Stone, Hoffman Pageua and now they are doing it again.    We've drafted the Sedins, Bure, EP, and QHs or so it seems that are HHOF talent.   They've drafted Hossa and Alfie.   Overall.   Yikes our draft record isn't so great is it?   We need better drafting for sure.   Not just "above average".   

Edited March 5, 2023 by IBatch

[RakuRaku]

I maybe in the minority here wanting a retool over rebuild. When you already got top guys like Petey, Hughes and Demko, you gotta build around them and push for playoffs sooner rather than later. 

 

Fans were screaming foul when we gave up that first round pick for Hronek... Ask yourself, is it that easy to use a first rounder to draft a guy of his calibre?? Ask yourself, do you think Petey wanna wait another 3-4 years before we are competitive again? Ask yourself, would you keep paying to watch a team mostly of AHLers and raw prospects?? 

 

I get most of us are upset with management over bad contracts and lack of direction... But at least our GM got green light to pull moves... Imagine if we took the Coyotes model... Year after year taking on dead contracts and numerous picks resulting in One Clayton Keller tht can really play... and signing a bunch of John Haydens in offseason!! 

[IBatch]

10 minutes ago, Jester13 said:

It's not about complaining for the sake of it. Lots of fans and pundits wanted to see the Canucks exercise a little patience for once, like Yzerman, Blake, and Sakic do - like Yzerman did with the trades he just made.

 

Yzerman said in his tdl presser that he sees them contending in a few years against the likes of Ottawa, Buffalo, NJ, etc., of tomorrow, and not against the likes of Boston, Carolina, NY, Pitts, etc. of today.

 

He knows a patient approach is the more tested method of building a contender for years to come, not just byilding a competitive team that can make the playoffs.

 

We, on the other hand, are looking short term and trying to be competitive against the likes of the Avalanche, Edmonton, Vegas, etc. of today, and not planning for being contenders for years to come against the likes of Anaheim, LA, Chicago, etc. of tomorrow.

 

We'll end up doing what we always do, which is try to make the playoffs each year and fall flat, only to pick mid-first round.

 

TLDR: fans want the Yzermanplan but we're getting the Insanityplan

We will have to wait and see.   Detroit is Vancouver's best comp as far as cycles go - they won a cup though, after that amazing 90's team set out into the sunset.     Holland traded a lot more picks than MG ever did.   Both teams are paying the piper so to speak.   Guess we will find out who's path is going to work in the long run eventually. They lack high end talent and we are ahead of them a little maybe.   Sure would be Canucks luck if this Hronek pick comes back and bites us.  

[jyu]

On 3/4/2023 at 1:31 AM, VancouverHabitant said:

 

Last 24 hours have become a dunking contest between Vancouver media members on our management.  I don't deny the validity of the criticism but I do find the coverage and conversation really one-sided and extremely negative.  

 

I just watched Allvin press conference. And I'd say some of the criticism are not valid at all.

 

Drance was very annoying as he was asking the same question over and over again. I don't know what he was trying to do like, he wants Allvin to break down and cry? Admit that we are screwed, we suck and that Hronek was a mistake and that we won't be able to free up the cap space? Like, I've never seen that kind of amateurish journalism even in this market.

 

It was clear from the conference that Allvin saw the team as having a lot of skill and too good to be in the bottom 5-10 for next season. It seemed like his view of this down year was mostly due to the team not playing together as a team and of course the defensive weaknesses/injury to Demko. He said Tocchet has done a good job since taking over and that he was pleased with the response from the players who are now playing better together. And it was evident that he took it upon himself to upgrade the team sooner rather than later.

 

He wasn't sure if the same player and the deal would be available in the off-season and that's why it was done now rather than later.

 

That was the reasoning behind getting Hronek now.

 

Allvin has provided justification for the moves, whether you agree with them and how you report this is up to you. Why the constant nagging? Some members of the media don't really deserve to be there.

 

[Alflives]

42 minutes ago, Jester13 said:

It's not about complaining for the sake of it. Lots of fans and pundits wanted to see the Canucks exercise a little patience for once, like Yzerman, Blake, and Sakic do - like Yzerman did with the trades he just made.

 

Yzerman said in his tdl presser that he sees them contending in a few years against the likes of Ottawa, Buffalo, NJ, etc., of tomorrow, and not against the likes of Boston, Carolina, NY, Pitts, etc. of today.

 

He knows a patient approach is the more tested method of building a contender for years to come, not just byilding a competitive team that can make the playoffs.

 

We, on the other hand, are looking short term and trying to be competitive against the likes of the Avalanche, Edmonton, Vegas, etc. of today, and not planning for being contenders for years to come against the likes of Anaheim, LA, Chicago, etc. of tomorrow.

 

We'll end up doing what we always do, which is try to make the playoffs each year and fall flat, only to pick mid-first round.

 

TLDR: fans want the Yzermanplan but we're getting the Insanityplan

Is that “Insanityplan” management or ownership’s? IMHAO our owner insists on a continuous build for a better next season. Switching Bo for Hronek is an excellent move, considering the owner’s insisted upon direction. 

[Jester13]

28 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Is that “Insanityplan” management or ownership’s? IMHAO our owner insists on a continuous build for a better next season. Switching Bo for Hronek is an excellent move, considering the owner’s insisted upon direction. 

100% comes from the owner. Maybe we call it the Luigiplan?

[SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME]

1 hour ago, Maniwaki Canuck said:

About the timing of this deal:  It's not a "win now" move or about being "buyers" at the deadline.  The guy is 25 and likely has 8 good years ahead of him.  It was an opportunistic acquisition of a player we really need for the future.  Yes, it would have been better to have drafted our own equivalent 4-5 years ago, but we didn't. 

Great point and one that it seems a good proportion of the fanbase, and nearly the entirety of the media pundits/analysts, have missed.

 

Acquiring Hronek was absolutely an opportunistic move with an eye on the future and the retooling window this team has set, based on the ages of their young core players (Petey, Hughes, Demko, etc, and maybe add Kuzmenko in there too). He likely will make the team better immediately, but adding him was more about what he can provide in the longterm, through his prime years, at an age that aligns with the career windows of our best young players.

 

If this team hopes to compete before the current young core group ages out of their prime years and starts declining, that hole at RHD needed to be addressed. The Canucks saw an opportunity to fix a critical roster issue and they took it. Hopefully their scouting and player analysis proves successful and we’ll see that they targeted the right player here. Seems a good bet. If Hronek maintains his current performance levels, he’s worth more than what they paid.

[aGENT]

Honestly, my only problem with the deal is situational for where the Canucks are as a franchise, cap space etc. A bottom 6+/- team, with a shallow pool, no cap space, selling high 2nd and 1st round picks is DEFINITELY debatable.

 

Other than that... Hronek is a good player, that we got at fair value. And yes, you can't just "wait until the draft" for players like these. There's no guarantee, he'd still be available, wouldn't cost more, wouldn't have more suitors etc. Young, 2 way/offence leaning RHD aren't just available whenever it suits you. It's a dumb argument IMO.

 

The bigger problem is management inability to proactively clear cap before baking a move like this.