Jim Benning on SN 650 (6/5/2019)

[-DLC-]

I am dead against trading Jake.

 

[D-Money]

5 minutes ago, debluvscanucks said:

I am dead against trading Jake.

 

I'm not.

 

He's been tried many times with Pettersson and Horvat, and it hasn't worked at all. Boeser and Pettersson have something special brewing, and both Roussel and Pearson did really well with Horvat. So he's almost certainly going to be a bottom-6 player for us - in other words, entirely replaceable.

 

[guntrix]

On 6/6/2019 at 12:06 AM, Elias Pettersson said:

Ripping it up on the large European ice surface in a competition that is largely a non-hitting affair is quite different than playing in the Stanley Cup playoffs.  Virtanen can be a far more effective player in the playoffs than Nylander.  If all we are looking for is points than we could just sign Panarin to a $10 million per year deal and it wouldn’t cost us any assets.  At least he performs in the playoffs and is still only 27.

 

If we are going to chase someone from Toronto than it should be Kapanen.  He’s bigger and faster than Nylander and doesn’t shy away from contact.  

Again, concluding that Jake will do well in the playoffs because of his attributes is nothing short of laughable for two main reasons:

 

1. Jake has historically lowered his performance in the playoffs, both in the AHL and WHL. This is measurable precedent, not projections, hopes and dreams. 

 

2. There are just as many examples of big players not performing in the playoffs. 

 

Basically, this is the equivalent of me assuming that Nylander would be good at surfing because of his hairstyle. 

 

The “playoff” and “powerforwards take longer to develop” myths need to finally die. I’m all for having constructive discussions, but not based on pure fantasies. 

[stawns]

35 minutes ago, D-Money said:

I'm not.

 

He's been tried many times with Pettersson and Horvat, and it hasn't worked at all. Boeser and Pettersson have something special brewing, and both Roussel and Pearson did really well with Horvat. So he's almost certainly going to be a bottom-6 player for us - in other words, entirely replaceable.

 

I actually thought Jake was a good fit with Petey......they had a nice little stint there.  Personally, I think the Boes-Petey tandem feels forced and they get dominated by other lines, a lot.  Boeser is too one dimensional to put with a young player, imo, and I think he plays better with Bo.

[Rob_Zepp]

On 6/5/2019 at 12:00 PM, 18W-40C-6W said:

Buddy, I live in TO so I watch the leafs ALOT. Nylander disappears in the playoffs, hides, won't take hits, doesn't forecheck hard, and gets perimeter points by playing with Matthews and on a stacked PP. Jake will be alot more valuable when we NEED him. Nylander is a great reg season player and got paid for it. We need players like Jake more than players like Nylander come playoff time. If Jake can be as effective as Tom Wilson and he can be (he actually has more talent than Wilson) that's alot more valuable than Swedish Playoff Houdini

The difference in what you are saying and what the poster you are responding to is saying comes down to you are looking at the big picture of what wins hockey games in a team sport and he/she/it is looking at what looks good on the stats page (individual stuff).     So many seem to forget hockey is a team sport and you need a mix.   A team of Nylanders would not win a playoff game.

[mephnick]

15 hours ago, HockeyHarry said:

I see comments that Jake would be involved in a trade deal. I sure hope not ! Jake is made for the playoffs, big Speed and big body attacking. beating down physically the other team. In each round Jake will be more valuable

Valuable players do all that while scoring goals. If we just want a guy who is going to be physical while playing 3rd line minutes and potting in 1 goal every 15 games, there are literally dozens of other players we can sign to fill that roll.

[Tomatoes11]

On 6/5/2019 at 10:44 AM, Ghostsof1915 said:

He's also not going to get multiple suspensions like Torres either. He's on pace for being a Brett Connolly type player. The good news is Jake's point totals are better than years 4 and 5 of Connolly's. It took 7 seasons before Connolly got 46 points. That's also with Jake bouncing around the lineup.  I'd like to see him with a consistent centre and keep on the upswing of improvement. It also wasn't until year 6, and a fully healthy season that Todd Bertuzzi broke out for his first 50 point season. 

The difference is that Bertuzzi, Connolly, or any other late blooming power forward example the way too optimistic fans like to use,  are not buffoons that fumble clean passes and they can actually read simple plays to save their lives.

 

JV has the physical tools right now so those will only regress with age. 3 seasons with zero and in some cases negative(set backs in development) hockey sense improvements is not the trajectory you overly optimistic fans place him at.

 

No way is he on pace to become this playoff performing power forward.

 

Iginla, Bobby Ryan, Bertuzzi, and even Torres all had hockey sense right from the start. What they were adjusting with was basically pace and what power moves buy them enough time and when to use them.

 

JV hasn’t even learned the fundamentals like receiving a clean pass with speed yet or to keep moving his feet. Let alone start experimenting with what his size advantage allows him to do.

 

He is flat out Pyatt and Bernier 3.0 not this Bertuzzi trajectory our fans like to believe.

[CaptainLinden16]

18 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

I was surprised Willie got Pastrnak money?

 

But he's a world class talent. With speed to burn, agility, can handle the puck.  Compare him to Eriksson if you will. Wait till you see Boeser's contract. It will be similar.

 

Or what we would have to pay Panarin, Duchesne... You would take the pretty boy.  

 

I would not worry about Nylander.  We cannot afford the assets it would take to get him anyway.

 

Guys believing we would be doing TO a favour are, IMO, in a shadow.

 

Guys who believe he is not a good hockey player, misinformed.

You can see the speed, agility, pucks skills like you mentioned.  But you made my point for me, he is going to cost something better spent elsewhere in terms of trade and contract.  He may just be a regular season phenom.  A lot of these types of players are.  

[NewbieCanuckFan]

2 hours ago, Tomatoes11 said:

The difference is that Bertuzzi, Connolly, or any other late blooming power forward example the way too optimistic fans like to use,  are not buffoons that fumble clean passes and they can actually read simple plays to save their lives.

 

JV has the physical tools right now so those will only regress with age. 3 seasons with zero and in some cases negative(set backs in development) hockey sense improvements is not the trajectory you overly optimistic fans place him at.

 

No way is he on pace to become this playoff performing power forward.

 

Iginla, Bobby Ryan, Bertuzzi, and even Torres all had hockey sense right from the start. What they were adjusting with was basically pace and what power moves buy them enough time and when to use them.

 

JV hasn’t even learned the fundamentals like receiving a clean pass with speed yet or to keep moving his feet. Let alone start experimenting with what his size advantage allows him to do.

 

He is flat out Pyatt and Bernier 3.0 not this Bertuzzi trajectory our fans like to believe.

Any comparisons to #44 is a bit a huge stretch in that Bert put up 39 points in the NHL as a 20 year old rookie.

[Rob_Zepp]

3 hours ago, mephnick said:

Valuable players do all that while scoring goals. If we just want a guy who is going to be physical while playing 3rd line minutes and potting in 1 goal every 15 games, there are literally dozens of other players we can sign to fill that roll.

1 goal every 15 games would be about 5 a year.   Jake scored three times that many and at an age far younger than many similar players who have gone onto score 20 plus on a regular basis once they fully developed as NHL players.    There are not "literally dozens" of players in the with Jake's combination of skills.    Unique talent.   Still under development.   Canucks can either be patient to the age that their own coach says will be his "ready" point or not.    You seem to clearly be in the "or not" camp.

[Rob_Zepp]

2 hours ago, Tomatoes11 said:

The difference is that Bertuzzi, Connolly, or any other late blooming power forward example the way too optimistic fans like to use,  are not buffoons that fumble clean passes and they can actually read simple plays to save their lives.

 

JV has the physical tools right now so those will only regress with age. 3 seasons with zero and in some cases negative(set backs in development) hockey sense improvements is not the trajectory you overly optimistic fans place him at.

 

No way is he on pace to become this playoff performing power forward.

 

Iginla, Bobby Ryan, Bertuzzi, and even Torres all had hockey sense right from the start. What they were adjusting with was basically pace and what power moves buy them enough time and when to use them.

 

JV hasn’t even learned the fundamentals like receiving a clean pass with speed yet or to keep moving his feet. Let alone start experimenting with what his size advantage allows him to do.

 

He is flat out Pyatt and Bernier 3.0 not this Bertuzzi trajectory our fans like to believe.

[Yung1]

Todd Bertuzzi Age 22

74 GP, 13 goals, 33 points 

 

Jake Virtanen Age 22 

70GP, 15 goals, 25 points

[Boeserker]

19 hours ago, Timråfan said:

Yes, so I'm really interested in how anyone can say he had a good tournament when Sweden lost because the finns played their best line against Swedens worst line where Loui was. 

Finlands winning goal was when Loui was on the ice. Not Louis fault but the coach because Sweden ran with only 6 defenceplayers and Finland exploited that weakness. 

 

You are right. LE sucks balls and he can beat it.

[Canuck Surfer]

6 hours ago, D-Money said:

I'm not.

 

He's been tried many times with Pettersson and Horvat, and it hasn't worked at all. Boeser and Pettersson have something special brewing, and both Roussel and Pearson did really well with Horvat. So he's almost certainly going to be a bottom-6 player for us - in other words, entirely replaceable.

 

I'm not either. In spite of his size, he has never seemed to pick up the knack for handling the puck in a cycle. The most obvious use for him on a top line?

 

Putting some common sense to it, I'm also not selling low either.  But isn't the context a bit out? Pearson & Roussel are both left handed, left wings. Virtanen, like Boeser, a right handed & primarily a right wing. And considering Jake has the speed to fore check, size to deploy against big opposing players? Add to it, he has improved as a pressure defensive forward. Has a knack for hawking pucks, jumping into passing lanes with his speed. I see the most logical Canuck projection for Jake as playing with Bo. 

 

Most likely with Pearson or Roussel on left wing > Pearson / Horvat / Virtanen  Horvat can play the cycle, but its not his offensive identity anyway.

 

It does not have to mean a restriction to being a bottom 6 forward.

[D-Money]

2 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

Most likely with Pearson or Roussel on left wing > Pearson / Horvat / Virtanen  Horvat can play the cycle, but its not his offensive identity anyway.

 

It does not have to mean a restriction to being a bottom 6 forward.

Baertschi can play either wing, and barring trade I expect him to be in the top-6.

[Canuck Surfer]

2 minutes ago, D-Money said:

Baertschi can play either wing, and barring trade I expect him to be in the top-6.

I agree regarding Baer.

 

He can trade pucks, has some agility. So barring a trade / UFA signing, logically the best to play with Brock & Petey..

[Lancaster]

2 hours ago, Yung1 said:

Todd Bertuzzi Age 22

74 GP, 13 goals, 33 points 

 

Jake Virtanen Age 22 

70GP, 15 goals, 25 points

Todd Bertuzzi Age 21

76GP, 18 goals, 39 points

 

Jake Virtanen Age 21

75GP, 10 goals, 20 points

[Elias Pettersson]

6 hours ago, mephnick said:

Valuable players do all that while scoring goals. If we just want a guy who is going to be physical while playing 3rd line minutes and potting in 1 goal every 15 games, there are literally dozens of other players we can sign to fill that roll.

Virtanen scored 15 goals in 70 games last year.  That's one goal every 4.6 games.  He's more than just a plumber on the 3rd line potting in 5-6 goals per year...

[RWMc1]

6 minutes ago, Lancaster said:

Todd Bertuzzi Age 21

76GP, 18 goals, 39 points

 

Jake Virtanen Age 21

75GP, 10 goals, 20 points

So, you're demonstrating that Bertuzzi regressed a bit from 21 to 22 while Jake showed progression. Good find!!

[aGENT]

2 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

I'm not either. In spite of his size, he has never seemed to pick up the knack for handling the puck in a cycle. The most obvious use for him on a top line?

 

Putting some common sense to it, I'm also not selling low either.  But isn't the context a bit out? Pearson & Roussel are both left handed, left wings. Virtanen, like Boeser, a right handed & primarily a right wing. And considering Jake has the speed to fore check, size to deploy against big opposing players? Add to it, he has improved as a pressure defensive forward. Has a knack for hawking pucks, jumping into passing lanes with his speed. I see the most logical Canuck projection for Jake as playing with Bo. 

 

Most likely with Pearson or Roussel on left wing > Pearson / Horvat / Virtanen  Horvat can play the cycle, but its not his offensive identity anyway.

 

It does not have to mean a restriction to being a bottom 6 forward.

I agree that Virtanen and Horvat (or Virtanen and Gaudette in the future for that matter) play nicely complimentary, North/South, solid defensive/puck hound/counter punch styles.

 

Either line will need someone more creative however to get them puck when a drive to the net play isn't a/the best option and/or if it has failed.