Coronavirus outbreak

[stawns]

2 hours ago, Jimmy McGill said:

yup its the only fair approach. If people are too scared/lazy/brainwashed/whatever to get vaccinated they have no right to infect others.

 

There are a small % of folks who legitimately can't take the vaccine, and thats unfortunate, but until the numbers go down again and we have covid vaccines as part of our regular annual flu shots thats how it needs to be.

My arvument to them is if you don't want to step up and be a part of protecting your community, then you should be able to enjoy the benefits of that community.  You are willfulky choosing to turn your back on us and there's consequences to that

 

It doesn't go over well with them

[JM_]

1 hour ago, JoeyJoeJoeJr. Shabadoo said:

Uh oh Drummer, bad news. But you know, democracy and whatnot. As for the other guy advocating for people who are scared of the virus to stay home, you might want to read the last sentence. 

 

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-poll-shows-majority-of-canadians-support-barring-unvaccinated-from/

 

An overwhelming majority of Canadians want people who are not vaccinated against COVID-19 banned from gatherings in public places, a new poll has found – proof of this country’s solidarity in limiting the rights of those who refuse to be inoculated.

Unlike the United States, where attitudes to vaccination cleave along political and geographic lines, Canadians are virtually united in their message to the vaccine hesitant or skeptical: Stay home.

 

 

 

I'm tired of being taken down the various rabbit holes that always happen when talking to the anti-vaxxer sympathetic crowd. They don't care about public safety, so there's just no need to talk to them or try to convince them of anything. 

 

But what I can do is support a government that does want vaccine passports, which is likely what a majority of people will do as well. Thats all we need to do, vote and not waste time arguing with people that just don't care about infecting other people. 

[JM_]

3 minutes ago, stawns said:

My arvument to them is if you don't want to step up and be a part of protecting your community, then you should be able to enjoy the benefits of that community.  You are willfulky choosing to turn your back on us and there's consequences to that

 

It doesn't go over well with them

its just a giant waste of time at this point. If you are a person still uncertain or unwilling to get a shot, there's nothing anyone can say to "convince" them to care about other people. 

 

Its actually childish, imo. Oh don't tell me what to do. Grow up, its called living in society, we all do things that we don't like that are necessary. 

[thedestroyerofworlds]

2 minutes ago, Logitek said:

This is one issue with the general public being uninformed. Vaccines are widely accepted in the scientific community as the cause of the mutations but you likely won’t research it further than that one study whereas I don’t have time to pull all the data. At some point you have to be willing to do some in-depth research if you want to really understand the processes and what happens with it. 
 

Also read the last paragraph of your quote. It states the vaccines have allowed these strains to persist. 
 

I saw you mentioned how it impacts unvaccinated more which was never my argument. I’m only saying the vaccines are likely the reason for ongoing mutations. They may not harm the vaccinated population as much but they will the unvaccinated.
 

Here is another one:

 

The evolution of meq genes is comparable with the evolutionary rate of RNA viruses, and the time of meq gene divergence is related to the transitions in management practices in the poultry industry, including the introduction of vaccines. Thus, the positive selection induced by vaccination seems to be a reason for the emergence of genetic diversity in the meq gene. To date, meq gene sequences in several regions other than the USA, including China, Europe and Australia, have been investigated. The meq genes in MDV strains isolated in each region were found to exhibit different genetic characteristics. Thus, meqgene polymorphisms or evolution seem to reflect the geographical characteristics and the history of vaccine use in each region.

 

 

https://virologyj.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12985-020-01456-1

More:

 

Although vaccines are able to inhibit the development of tumors, disease causing MDV can still infect vaccinated chickens resulting in evolution of strains capable of overcoming vaccine immunity. The overall objective of this application, is to further attenuate 

 

https://portal.nifa.usda.gov/web/crisprojectpages/0221494-generation-and-analysis-of-a-recombinant-mareks-disease-virus-with-mutation-in-the-meq-and-ribonucleotide-reductase-genes-for-potential-use-as-vaccine.html

 

 

 

It’s a very valid concern and we may be seeing the signs of that with these variants. I’ve posted all from highly credible sources. Look into it.

This again.  The Delta appeared BEFORE mass-vaccination was a thing.  FACT.  You are comparing pineapples to apples.  Two totally different things.  

[Gurn]

9 minutes ago, Logitek said:

cause of the mutations but you likely won’t research it further than that one study whereas I don’t have time to pull all the data. At some point you have to be willing to do some in-depth research

I was wondering how long it would be before a statement like this.

[Fanuck]

7 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said:

If you are a person still uncertain or unwilling to get a shot, there's nothing anyone can say to "convince" them to care about other people. 

This is why many governments around NA (and elsewhere) have completely abandoned the position of trying to convince the remaining anti-vax people to get their vaccines 'for others' and have done a 180° turnaround in strategy and are appealing to these peoples ingrained selfishness by offering draws, lotteries,  trips, scholarships,  etc....in an effort to get the remaining a$$holes to get with the program.  

 

Not sure how I feel about government using taxpayer money to offer lottery winnings to get people to vaccinate but it's happening already so....

[thedestroyerofworlds]

[Fanuck]

10 minutes ago, Logitek said:

They may not harm the vaccinated population as much but they will the unvaccinated.

To be frank,  at this point,  I personally don't really care what happens to those willingly choosing not to vaccinate.   To be clear I'm talking about those otherwise perfectly healthy people making a conscious choice to remain unvaccinated, not those who cannot vaccinate due to medical reasons. 

[NewbieCanuckFan]

3 minutes ago, Fanuck said:

To be frank,  at this point,  I personally don't really care what happens to those willingly choosing not to vaccinate.   To be clear I'm talking about those otherwise perfectly healthy people making a conscious choice to remain unvaccinated, not those who cannot vaccinate due to medical reasons. 

I'm a cold mother@$#@$:

 

 

[EOTM]

25 minutes ago, gurn said:

I was wondering how long it would be before a statement like this.

"Research"

[drummer4now]

2 hours ago, JoeyJoeJoeJr. Shabadoo said:

Uh oh Drummer, bad news. But you know, democracy and whatnot. As for the other guy advocating for people who are scared of the virus to stay home, you might want to read the last sentence. 

 

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-poll-shows-majority-of-canadians-support-barring-unvaccinated-from/

 

An overwhelming majority of Canadians want people who are not vaccinated against COVID-19 banned from gatherings in public places, a new poll has found – proof of this country’s solidarity in limiting the rights of those who refuse to be inoculated.

Unlike the United States, where attitudes to vaccination cleave along political and geographic lines, Canadians are virtually united in their message to the vaccine hesitant or skeptical: Stay home.

 

 

Meh it is just a poll and like anything else overblown… the politicians have said no for now so why should I care what people want? 

 

I will be waiting for action from the federal and provincial governments in the coming months.. after an federal election we will know for certain. 
 

Vaccine passports for international travellers fine but not for domestic. 

Edited August 5, 2021 by drummer4now

[stawns]

31 minutes ago, Logitek said:

This is one issue with the general public being uninformed. Vaccines are widely accepted in the scientific community as the cause of the mutations but you likely won’t research it further than that one study whereas I don’t have time to pull all the data. At some point you have to be willing to do some in-depth research if you want to really understand the processes and what happens with it. 
 

Also read the last paragraph of your quote. It states the vaccines have allowed these strains to persist. 
 

I saw you mentioned how it impacts unvaccinated more which was never my argument. I’m only saying the vaccines are likely the reason for ongoing mutations. They may not harm the vaccinated population as much but they will the unvaccinated.
 

Here is another one:

 

The evolution of meq genes is comparable with the evolutionary rate of RNA viruses, and the time of meq gene divergence is related to the transitions in management practices in the poultry industry, including the introduction of vaccines. Thus, the positive selection induced by vaccination seems to be a reason for the emergence of genetic diversity in the meq gene. To date, meq gene sequences in several regions other than the USA, including China, Europe and Australia, have been investigated. The meq genes in MDV strains isolated in each region were found to exhibit different genetic characteristics. Thus, meqgene polymorphisms or evolution seem to reflect the geographical characteristics and the history of vaccine use in each region.

 

 

https://virologyj.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12985-020-01456-1

More:

 

Although vaccines are able to inhibit the development of tumors, disease causing MDV can still infect vaccinated chickens resulting in evolution of strains capable of overcoming vaccine immunity. The overall objective of this application, is to further attenuate 

 

https://portal.nifa.usda.gov/web/crisprojectpages/0221494-generation-and-analysis-of-a-recombinant-mareks-disease-virus-with-mutation-in-the-meq-and-ribonucleotide-reductase-genes-for-potential-use-as-vaccine.html

 

 

 

It’s a very valid concern and we may be seeing the signs of that with these variants. I’ve posted all from highly credible sources. Look into it.

So now relate that to covid vaccines

[stawns]

26 minutes ago, Logitek said:

Because the virus survives in the host and fights off the immune response and slowly mutates and the vaccinated chickens are able to still spread the virus, although they don’t get as sick from it (which demonstrates the vaccine “works”) but unvaccinated to get much more sick from it. 
 

Slowly it mutates as it spreads and fights off vaccinated immune response and infects other individuals. 
 

The strains effectively

evolve in strength the more they survive the immune response and get passed on so if it survives one person and passes on it’s now a bit stronger in fighting the immune response created from the vaccine and if it survives in the second infected party, it’s now even better at fighting that immune response as it evolves and mutates to handle it better. 
 

Eventually the immune response doesn’t have an impact and it gets stronger ie. new variant, and the vaccine needs modified to fight against the more virulent strain and onwards the cycle continues leading to continual boosters required to correct the issue the vaccine creates in the first place. 

 

 

“Although vaccines are able to inhibit the development of tumors, disease causing MDV can still infect vaccinated chickens resulting in evolution of strains capable of overcoming vaccine immunity. ”

 

https://portal.nifa.usda.gov/web/crisprojectpages/0221494-generation-and-analysis-of-a-recombinant-mareks-disease-virus-with-mutation-in-the-meq-and-ribonucleotide-reductase-genes-for-potential-use-as-vaccine.html
 

 

The information is out there for all those willing to look. The creator of mRNA technology said this would likely happen as well with the COVID vaccines because they are considered “leaky” vaccines. 

So were mutations before widespread use of vaccines?  I don't think anyone thinks vaccines are going to eradicate this virus, but it's certainly the main tool in the toolbox

 

What do you suggest, if not vaccines?

 

[EOTM]

5 minutes ago, Logitek said:

Fair enough. All viruses mutate, vaccine or not.  That doesn’t mean it’s not a concern with the vaccines amplifying the mutation. 
 

If you trust the mRNA technology, why don’t you trust the person who has spent his whole career as pro-vaccination, working on vaccines, and the one who invented that technology who outright said that this is a huge concern and we should not be deploying the leaky vaccines?

You mean the one who got an mrna covid vaccine a while ago? 

[PhillipBlunt]

1 hour ago, BoKnows said:

That'd be my guess.  The virus mutates to survive, if it mutates to become extremely lethal to the host (us) it will have fewer and fewer people to go to.  Pretty sure the Spanish Flu mutated itself to not effecting humans, ending the pandemic.

Somewhat. There are various theories as to how it ended, but their seems to be no real consensus at what that was. Some believed that herd immunity had eventually been attained, after the brutally horrific second wave which saw losses of life at a mind numbing rate, the United States alone saw almost 300,000 die from the virus from September to December of 1918.

 

Cases that were coming into hospitals during the fourth wave in the spring of 1920 displayed symptoms of a far less virulence than those two years prior. The virus mutated so rapidly during this time and killed people so quickly, that it lost potency. Sadly, that was at the cost of 50,000,000-75,000,000 lives, which is almost unfathomable. 

 

Some believed breakthroughs in the treatment of pneumonia helped to negate the spread. 

 

It still lives amongst us though. As H1N1, it still takes lives on a yearly basis, just at a far less apocalyptic rate.

[King Heffy]

2 minutes ago, Logitek said:

If the vaccinated aren’t at a high risk then let the unvaccinated make their own choice to take the risk of death from COVID and move on with your day. 

Problem is that taxpayers are on the hook for the medical costs of the idiots who voluntarily refuse the vaccine, and the hospitals will get overrun.  Either we keep these clowns away from people with fully functioning brains, or we send them a bill when Darwin takes over.

[JoeyJoeJoeJr. Shabadoo]

21 minutes ago, Logitek said:

~1.4 million cases in Canada 
~26K deaths

 

Of the deaths, more than 15K were in care homes meaning roughly 11K are outside of care homes. That 11K includes those with high risk factors. 
 

Including all deaths were talking 1.8% and taking out care homes were looking at 0.7%. 
 

By all means protect those in care homes but don’t push the vaccine on the rest of the population. If the elderly are vaccinated they should have minor cases. You are very likely not at risk. 

You're missing a few stats, granted some are still not available. What about total number of hospitalizations? Surely many have had their lives saved by the medical system that don't show up in your stats. What about long haul covid survivors? Do those stats not matter when discussing the severity of the disease you are trying so hard to downplay? All this while undertaking the greatest mitigation tactics the world has ever implemented. 

[Gurn]

12 minutes ago, Logitek said:

If the vaccinated aren’t at a high risk then let the unvaccinated make their own choice to take the risk of death from COVID and move on with your day. 

And the people that can't take the vaccine for medical reasons, well they can just take their chances too?

Even though those  chances will be much higher than it would be if everyone that could get vaccinated did?

 

 

Edit did for doesn't, last word.

Edited August 5, 2021 by gurn

[coho8888]

2 minutes ago, Logitek said:

I don’t have any issue with vaccines. I encouraged both of my parents to get it (70+ in age) and they both had minimal side effects with either dose. I think we should continue deploying them to those who want them. 

 

I have an issue with forcing it on everybody and implementing societal restrictions that will be here to stay once mainstream acceptance occurs for passports. If the vaccinated aren’t at a high risk then let the unvaccinated make their own choice to take the risk of death from COVID and move on with your day. 

You seem to forget that there is still a large segment of the population that aren't eligible for vaccines.  And yes young children can get infected and have unfortunate outcomes.  I don't want to get Covid, period.  Don't care that I'm vaxxed.  Don't want it.  So I have every right not to have to deal with the  unvaxxed.  Get a vax or not.  Dont care.  Just get the hell away from me.  I have that right.  Just like I have a right not to inhale second hand smoke and we now have laws for that.

 

[King Heffy]

1 minute ago, Logitek said:

Those people aren’t going to be able to go out into society whether we have passports or not. The vaccinated are just as capable of spreading COVID and infecting others as the unvaccinated are. 

So we're back to figuring out whether to respected the wishes of the vaccinated who want to avoid Covid, or a loud but vocal minority with a median IQ lower than LE's points total last year.