[GDT/PGT] Vancouver Canucks @ Edmonton McDavids | January 14, 2021 | 6 p.m. PT | SN, SNP

[khay]

15 minutes ago, deus.ex.makina said:

Awful Edler. Can’t skate, lateral mobility next to none. 
Hope Tryamkin comes fast enough to replace him. 

Or, McDavid is just otherworldly. It's tough to beat the Oilers when McDavid does what he did tonight.

 

Tryamkin is not going to have better lateral mobility than Edler. Tryamkin will punish people more often though and yes, we need more of that in the playoffs.

 

[King Heffy]

1 hour ago, Petey_BOI said:

imagine if gretzky got to play with mcdavid instead of a lame ppg player like nichols.

Instead he played with Kurri who he had chemistry with and actually backchecked.   Kurrio also played like a man; enforcers would have a field day with McDiver on the same line as the pacifist Gretzky. 

[PetterssonOrPeterson]

4 hours ago, HKSR said:

Oh boi, you're a lost cause.  McDavid couldnt even score enough goals to lead his team last year... 

 

Speaking of last year, have you decided goals, assists or points yet to tell us which one McDavid was best at?  

 

I assume you are just gonna ignore this request again because you realize that you arguing McDavid is in the same tier as Gretzky and Lemieux is cringe worthy.

 

4 hours ago, HKSR said:

Not sure what the point of this is, but I'll play along.  So Gretzky lead this stacked team in goals, assists and points.

 

In fact, he had 63% higher point totals than his next closest teammate.  What does that mean?  It means if Draisaitl had 100 points, McDavid would need 163 points to have an equivalent level of dominance that Gretzky had.  We are comparing players on the same team, in the same year, with the same set of circumstances.  Lemme know when McDavid pulls that off and we can talk GOAT.

If you’re purely basing this on statistics, I don’t think you’ll ever see anyone ever again put up the same numbers as 99 or 66. Even getting near those numbers is not possible in this era of hockey. 
 

It might be cliche but its true. Defenders are bigger, stronger and faster than the defenders of that era. Goalies are more well equipped and most are more athletic compared to those days as well. 
 

I do believe that talent wise, there are players that can get close to Gretzky and Lemieux’s level. McDavid’s certainly the fastest player I’ve ever seen play the game and he is one of the most dynamic ever. Not to mention he’s only still just turned 24 and his prime years are ahead.  

I hate “GOAT” talk because you simply can’t compare the eras. The game has changed a LOT since then. I think its far more reasonable to talk about the greatest player in each era or generation. 
 

[IBatch]

2 hours ago, PetterssonOrPeterson said:

 

If you’re purely basing this on statistics, I don’t think you’ll ever see anyone ever again put up the same numbers as 99 or 66. Even getting near those numbers is not possible in this era of hockey. 
 

It might be cliche but its true. Defenders are bigger, stronger and faster than the defenders of that era. Goalies are more well equipped and most are more athletic compared to those days as well. 
 

I do believe that talent wise, there are players that can get close to Gretzky and Lemieux’s level. McDavid’s certainly the fastest player I’ve ever seen play the game and he is one of the most dynamic ever. Not to mention he’s only still just turned 24 and his prime years are ahead.  

I hate “GOAT” talk because you simply can’t compare the eras. The game has changed a LOT since then. I think its far more reasonable to talk about the greatest player in each era or generation.

Best way to compare players is how well they played against the next crop of stars in their 30’s.  And work your way back.    As far as defenders go they are faster - wouldn’t say bigger or stronger though compared to the 90’s D’s.   The league’s actually getting smaller, it’s a lot closer to the 80’s then you might think, especially with D’s.    That to me at least works pretty good - and agree we won’t see anyone score 150 points again anytime soon, 200?  Virtually impossible to do without an all-star cast to work with - under the cap.   Curiously WG did most of his damage 5 x 5, that’s one area specifically I couldn’t see anyone come close to touching. 

Edited January 15, 2021 by IBatch

[IBatch]

5 hours ago, Darius said:

Nicholls on playing with 99 the year Wayne got traded; 

 

“It was the opportunity of a lifetime,” Nicholls says from his home in Addison, Texas. “I got to play with arguably the greatest player in the world for one year, and I took full advantage.

 

Gretzky and nicholls ran the LA power play. Bernie was on the point.  Coach would also play them together when he needed a goal. 
 

So mid way through the next season (89/90) he gets traded to NY.  He goes from 150 point player to a ppg player.  
 

So the year he played with Wayne he got 150 points.  Substantially more points than before Wayne showed up and substantially more than when he went to the Rangers.  
 

You think this is just a coincidence?
 

Nicholls was an  Excellent player nonetheless. 

 

99 made the players around him better.  He probably got some into the hall of fame too. 
 

Strong argument can be made that 99 is the goat ( I can make an argument for 66 too)  He is at least a tier above mcdavid. 

Gretzky and Mario are a tier above everyone.    When Mario was owning the league he had to do it with three players hacking, slashing and draped all over him, doubt McDavid or anyone today for that matter, would find it easy to play under the old rules.   Gretzky outscored the stars of his day by 70 plus points year after year ... Hawerchuk and Stastny would be considered the same way we do Crosby, Ovi, McDavid, Kucherov, McKinnon etc back then if they didn’t play in WGs shadow.    
 

Past the mid 90’s WG became a mere mortal ... just a regular star and finally packed it in after 20 seasons of pro hockey.   Even then aside from his last season, he was still a top five pick in fantasy pools.   In the 80’s Gretzky’s points were divided - you could pick him twice, and get his assists or his goals, and even then it wasn’t that fair (winning the snake draft and going first and getting WGs total points was pretty much a guarantee to win the draft).    
 

Anyone who wasn’t there to see some of the things he did ... feel bad for you.  And it’s not like he had an all-star team every year - the LA team he took to the cup in 93 wasn’t loaded at all.   His bar has only being met once for a forward and that was Mario.    Those two were unbelievable, and if you take WGs first 700 games or so and compare it to Mario’s it’s not hard to tell who was the greatest ever.   .... seemed like Gretzky had five point nights  every two or three games.

 

Edit: On Nichols.   The management  lied to him to - in the off season after he got 150 points he asked him if he should buy a house because he wanted to stay...he said yes and not to worry.   It really was too bad ... WG and Nichols made a good duo. 

Edited January 15, 2021 by IBatch

[Bad_BOI_pete]

2 hours ago, King Heffy said:

Instead he played with Kurri who he had chemistry with and actually backchecked.   Kurrio also played like a man; enforcers would have a field day with McDiver on the same line as the pacifist Gretzky. 

except the player's are bigger faster and hit harder in today's nhl. oh and mcdavid would be a pretty big boy out there on those tiny 1980's teams.

Season

Ht Avg

Ht SD

Wt Avg

Wt SD

1983-84

72.1

1.95

192.6

12.99

2014-15

73.1

2.11

201.2

15.17

dont believe me listen to wayne himself. but you probably would think wayne's just being nice, eh. here's a quote, "i'm glad I retired" when asked about the speed and physicality of today's game

 

 

[HorvatToBaertschi]

1 minute ago, Petey_BOI said:

except the player's are bigger faster and hit harder in today's nhl. oh and mcdavid would be a pretty big boy out there on those tiny 1980's teams.

Season

Ht Avg

Ht SD

Wt Avg

Wt SD

1983-84

72.1

1.95

192.6

12.99

2014-15

73.1

2.11

201.2

15.17

dont believe me listen to wayne himself. but you probably would think wayne's just being nice, eh. here's a quote, "i'm glad I retired" when asked about the speed and physicality of today's game

 

 

Way to just absolutely disregard the incredibly technical and intellectual advances made in athletic programs and training regimens for young athletes in the past 30 years.
Imagine Gretzky with his skill, with the same high quality level of training kids get today. I’m talking human kinetics knowledge, nutrition, sports science, and then physiotherapy for R&R.

 

You can’t compare eras without adding context. 

[flat land fish]

Edmonton wanted it more than us.

 

McDavid had an exceptional game.

 

our power play failed to execute.

 

arguably if our power play had delivered we are right in the mix for a W despite not playing our best game.

 

Miller would have made a difference tonight, lotto line was chasing the play as petey had a tough night in the face off circle.

 

 

[Chris12345]

8 hours ago, King Heffy said:

I don't watch AHL teams.

You must have missed the game last night because Van was playing like an ECHL team.

[Bad_BOI_pete]

1 hour ago, HorvatToBaertschi said:

Way to just absolutely disregard the incredibly technical and intellectual advances made in athletic programs and training regimens for young athletes in the past 30 years.
Imagine Gretzky with his skill, with the same high quality level of training kids get today. I’m talking human kinetics knowledge, nutrition, sports science, and then physiotherapy for R&R.

 

You can’t compare eras without adding context. 

well thats what im doing............ it would take literally hundreds of hours to compare, im sorr im not that vested in this argument

[rychicken]

all this Gretzky talk I thought I was in a GDT/PGT from 1983....I was going to ask if we dressed Mark Kirton....

[-DLC-]

Here's the thing about then versus now...they had to contend with a lot more back then.  Guys could basically piggy back and maul each other and the penalties now mean skaters aren't nearly as obstructed as they were.  Rock 'Em Sock 'Em hockey was a thing and it was much more physical.  There were more obstacles and these days a tap near the hands of McDavid puts his team on a pp.  Yet he can slam Quinn from behind and it goes unnoticed.  He gets preferential treatment that helps.  Not denying he is brilliant when he uses his speed and blasts through entire lines to score.  It's really something to watch.   He didn't like being embarrassed and used that to fuel his game.  As I said...ego driven.  But the best bring that every game and they are constantly looking to be the best, not just "prove" they are.

 

I don't like him so I am biased.

[Ghostsof1915]

4 hours ago, PetterssonOrPeterson said:

 

If you’re purely basing this on statistics, I don’t think you’ll ever see anyone ever again put up the same numbers as 99 or 66. Even getting near those numbers is not possible in this era of hockey. 
 

It might be cliche but its true. Defenders are bigger, stronger and faster than the defenders of that era. Goalies are more well equipped and most are more athletic compared to those days as well. 
 

I do believe that talent wise, there are players that can get close to Gretzky and Lemieux’s level. McDavid’s certainly the fastest player I’ve ever seen play the game and he is one of the most dynamic ever. Not to mention he’s only still just turned 24 and his prime years are ahead.  

I hate “GOAT” talk because you simply can’t compare the eras. The game has changed a LOT since then. I think its far more reasonable to talk about the greatest player in each era or generation. 
 

In addition, players block shots, clog up lanes. Defensive tactics and strategy has radically changed. Goalie equipment is bigger, and the goalies themselves are bigger, and I think the biggest factor of all is the butterfly style. Goalies just cover more real estate in net.  

We will probably never see a mid-80's Edmonton type stacked team again. 

Once defensive systems and goalies spread throughout the league, Lemiuex and Gretzky were putting up great but not the kind of numbers in the 80's. 

It also explains why players like Yzerman and Hull got high numbers as well.

[Ghostsof1915]

31 minutes ago, rychicken said:

all this Gretzky talk I thought I was in a GDT/PGT from 1983....I was going to ask if we dressed Mark Kirton....

Well Tanti and Gradin were pretty invisible last night....

[Nucker 67]

1. Goaltending needs to be better.

2. Pettersson needs to be better.

 

I think Petey is playing hurt, he doesn't look very effective and it's like he's not having any fun. Is he missing Miller or something? 

[Ghostsof1915]

2 minutes ago, NUCKER67 said:

1. Goaltending needs to be better.

2. Pettersson needs to be better.

 

I think Petey is playing hurt, he doesn't look very effective and it's like he's not having any fun. Is he missing Miller or something? 

He's gaming too much. Oooo controversy! 

[HomeBrew]

1 minute ago, NUCKER67 said:

1. Goaltending needs to be better.

2. Pettersson needs to be better.

 

I think Petey is playing hurt, he doesn't look very effective and it's like he's not having any fun. Is he missing Miller or something? 

EP40 is a perfectionist. When he isn’t playing well and they are losing the game, he gets upset with himself.

[Nucker 67]

2 minutes ago, HomeBrew said:

EP40 is a perfectionist. When he isn’t playing well and they are losing the game, he gets upset with himself.

I did notice before the game, just before the faceoff, he was on one knee stretching out his back/hips. He looked in discomfort. Sure, he broke two stick and hit the crossbar, but I just haven't noticed him much. Sure noticed McDavid though. 

[Darius]

2 hours ago, IBatch said:

Gretzky and Mario are a tier above everyone.    When Mario was owning the league he had to do it with three players hacking, slashing and draped all over him, doubt McDavid or anyone today for that matter, would find it easy to play under the old rules.   Gretzky outscored the stars of his day by 70 plus points year after year ... Hawerchuk and Stastny would be considered the same way we do Crosby, Ovi, McDavid, Kucherov, McKinnon etc back then if they didn’t play in WGs shadow.    
 

 

good post!

in my mind the more valid debate is who was better... Mario vs Wayne .  McD isnt in that conversation.

 

McDavid is an elite player , but honestly I would put him in a tier closer to Pavel Bure than in a tier with 66 and 99.   Not saying that Bure is better, but could you imagine what a 24 year old Bure would do with no two line off side rule, no clutching and grabbing and a guy like H Sedin or EP feeding him sublime bank passes of of the boards.

 

When I see some of those old clips, how guys like Derian Hatcher would hack, wack and clutch him so much it would look like he is water skiing behind him. Not to mention all the attempted head shots and every goon trying to make a name for himself trying to take a piece of him.  Remember that no name hack Todd Simpson from Calgary basically injuring Bure in the first game of the season one year.  That game was a gong show after that, goons squaring off, all the fights.  The stars have it easier today by comparison IMHO.

 

McDavid looked great last night,.  But can you imagine what a prime Pavel Bure would do to Alex Edler or a rusty Travis Hamonic if they couldnt obstruct and hold on to him like it was the 90s?

 

 

[CanucksJay]

Are we merging gdt and pgt in one thread this year? 

 

I preferred it being separated because I don't normally go to GDT during the game and sometimes go to pgt the next day but now I have to sift through everything to find the point where the game ends and the pgt talk starts.