Interesting Take on the Loss of Markstrom

[GB5]

I think the Flames will regret the Markstrom contract in a few years. They have been a goalie graveyard ever since Kipper left.

[theo5789]

On 12/2/2020 at 9:11 AM, MikeyD said:

I've always been a guy who has the mindset of "if you have something elite, you can't just let it walk away". Goaltending is the most important position in the game

Tell this to Columbus and the Blue Jackets. I think they made the right decision letting go of their two time Vezina winning goaltender. It helps when you have young promising goaltending in the pipeline to ease the loss. As long as their is a plan in place, you make the decisions that are best for the team. We have done that here. Benning always had a walk away number even prior to the covid news and thus why we didn't extend Marky earlier on and knew Demko would be a suitable fall back plan should he ask for too much.

[Canuck Surfer]

9 hours ago, IBatch said:

Crawford was and still is criminally underrated.  His teammates know how good he is though.   Better then average at best to decent anyways doesn’t quite do him justice.   Quick has one of the most dominant playoffs the past 20 years for LA, definitely a deserving Smythe winner - of course Thomas too.   PIT was my favourite winner .... they threw all the possession stats out the window and won with letting the other team come in and then counter-attack.    They did it two years in a row which made it even better ... for sure the Crosby/Malkin show, and yes very good goaltending too.   MAF was particularly great (after years of so-so performances) in relief of Murray for their second cup.  
 

Definitely need to be in the upper third of goaltending to get the job done.   Less then that...well not much hope for a cup or even a decent cup run even if your team is stacked.   

Average at best was Niemi, decent overall was Crawford. But inconsistent.

 

Fair conversation on your part though.  Had a dig at figures.  0.918save % career over 500 NHL games which is actually quite good. Identical 0.918 % over 90 + play off games. That is even more respectable? The play off's are much tougher. Fair conversation until you dig, and you would still get my conclusion. 

 

He was best when they won. My take is, if you were a Hawk fan, you could be very happy he helped deliver cups?

 

0.932% in 2013  =  Excellent and a cup!

0.912 % in 2013-14  =  OK                      The gap year between cups, had he been as good they may have won 3 cups with him?

0.924% in 2015  =  Solid and another cup!           

 

2014/15 was the first year of his then new $36 mill deal. One more cup then he & the team started declining. Crawf was as described poor at best in any following play off's;

 

0.907 % in 2019/20 = sulky

0.902 % in 2016/17 = worse

0.907 % in 2015/16 = poor again

 

That was his last 3 play off years.  A 6 year deal, a cup, but 5 years of the team & Crawford declining. With him holding an NMC tying the team up from rebuilding. 

 

Marky is older than that now. Actually less accomplished over his career! But, yes, better last year than we ever really saw from Crawford? Still enough danger signs added to Demko's availability... To suggest passing on Marky  for 6 years with an NMC was the right move.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  

 

 

[The Lock]

18 hours ago, Davathor said:

All I'm getting from this discussion is we will have a goalie tandem of the next Carey Price and the next Quick

 

Niiice

Realistically we won't, but there's nothing wrong with having hope either.

 

And there are faaaaar worse tandems in the league. Ours is just a little more unknown and hard to gauge at this point.

[cuporbust]

On 12/2/2020 at 9:49 AM, ken kaniff said:

If we had an average NHL goalie last season we would not have made the playoffs. We would probably be a bottom 10 team if not for him. Very few goalies would be able to pull that off. The last few years he’s been elite as in top 3 at least. He’s masked quite a few problems on the team 

Its not debatable u are right on the past , but I'm not convinced he will continue to hold this level for much longer. I don't think he will have a long prime . He bloomed very late , and I think he will peak very early . Just two and a half seasons ago , everyone was consistently screaming at their TV because of him,  and it had been that way for half a decade. 

Edited December 4, 2020 by cuporbust

[iceman64]

On 12/2/2020 at 9:11 AM, MikeyD said:

https://www.sportsnet.ca/590/hockey-central-at-noon/dec-1-i-heard-they-were-doing-thumb-wrestling-or-something/

On the December 1st edition of Hockey Central, they bring on Steve Valiquette who does analysis for the New York Rangers and has a great history of analyzing modern goaltending and tracking statistics that's a better, more modern take on the "eye test" that many of us who have played and understood the game can finally flesh out with goaltenders. I recommend most of the podcast just for listening, but the part that is very interesting (and his take I agree wholeheartedly with) is around the time of 40:05 where Jeff asks the question, "Is there a goalie that you've analyzed that you feel would have a better name if he weren't playing on a bad team?" and his immediate answer is Jacob Markstrom. 

He goes on to break down the analytics of why Markstrom has been one of the best goaltenders in the past 3 years. Not only does he allow an incredibly low amount of low-danger chances get through him (last year he had ZERO.... Z-E-R-O during the regular season on another analysist's report), but he also stopped an incredibly large amount of high danger chances. Now most of us know Markstrom is a good goaltender, but I'm not sure how many understand just HOW good of a goaltender he was for us. I think Steve Valiquette is right, I don't think the team would be anywhere near as good if it weren't for him and I don't think they'd even stand a chance at getting into the playoffs without his performance. 

Now obviously with cap issues, somebody had to go. I'm still personally not quite sure letting go of Markstrom was the right deal (as opposed to playing both Demko and Markstrom this year, and getting an asset out of trading away Demko at the deadline). There's definitely a risk to giving Markstrom that huge contract as he's aging, but I've always been a guy who has the mindset of "if you have something elite, you can't just let it walk away". Goaltending is the most important position in the game and we're taking a huge gamble for the cost of 6 million dollars. Jim Benning is definitely thinking long-term, but I wonder what the repercussions could possibly be on development if goaltending doesn't get the team to where it needs to be (in the playoffs). 

I'm crossing my fingers Demko pans out. Goaltending is not an easy position to fill and getting consistent elite goaltending is as hard as finding a first line player. I think a large part of our success is riding on a young goalie. Fortunately for us, Demko is used to being "the guy" and his trajectory is showing fairly decently that he'll be a starter. The team has to grow significantly to become a contender anyways, but having an inconsistent goaltender could derail the entire rebuild. 

With that said, Go Canucks Go! Hockey still feels forever away. I can't wait to see how Demmer performs! I really hope he proves my worries to be ridiculous! 

well if Demko needs more time to work on his game and be super consistent, we have Holtby, and when he's on his horse, he's a true game changer and I fully believe Ian Clark will help him get back to that. thankfully we have no concerns about who is in the net.. 

[MikeyD]

On 12/3/2020 at 1:00 PM, theo5789 said:

Tell this to Columbus and the Blue Jackets. I think they made the right decision letting go of their two time Vezina winning goaltender. It helps when you have young promising goaltending in the pipeline to ease the loss. As long as their is a plan in place, you make the decisions that are best for the team. We have done that here. Benning always had a walk away number even prior to the covid news and thus why we didn't extend Marky earlier on and knew Demko would be a suitable fall back plan should he ask for too much.

The thing is that Columbus has one of the best d-cores in the league, meanwhile we have one of the worst haha

[IBatch]

On 12/3/2020 at 5:04 PM, Canuck Surfer said:

Average at best was Niemi, decent overall was Crawford. But inconsistent.

 

Fair conversation on your part though.  Had a dig at figures.  0.918save % career over 500 NHL games which is actually quite good. Identical 0.918 % over 90 + play off games. That is even more respectable? The play off's are much tougher. Fair conversation until you dig, and you would still get my conclusion. 

 

He was best when they won. My take is, if you were a Hawk fan, you could be very happy he helped deliver cups?

 

0.932% in 2013  =  Excellent and a cup!

0.912 % in 2013-14  =  OK                      The gap year between cups, had he been as good they may have won 3 cups with him?

0.924% in 2015  =  Solid and another cup!           

 

2014/15 was the first year of his then new $36 mill deal. One more cup then he & the team started declining. Crawf was as described poor at best in any following play off's;

 

0.907 % in 2019/20 = sulky

0.902 % in 2016/17 = worse

0.907 % in 2015/16 = poor again

 

That was his last 3 play off years.  A 6 year deal, a cup, but 5 years of the team & Crawford declining. With him holding an NMC tying the team up from rebuilding. 

 

Marky is older than that now. Actually less accomplished over his career! But, yes, better last year than we ever really saw from Crawford? Still enough danger signs added to Demko's availability... To suggest passing on Marky  for 6 years with an NMC was the right move.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  

 

 

 If anyone is blame about the CHI teams dying it should be Toews and Kane’s, at the time and still massive cap hits.   Crawford’s regular season sp is right around where Luongo’s is .918.   For sure he’s had some up and down years, but when it mattered the most he was there as his two cups suggest.   Better then most over the last decade, including in his teams declining years.  Reminds me a little of Osgood, never given enough credit for what he did and just considered a product of his team. 

[theo5789]

2 hours ago, MikeyD said:

The thing is that Columbus has one of the best d-cores in the league, meanwhile we have one of the worst haha

Well our defense is improving with the addition of Schmidt and combined with the addition of Holtby and the improvement of Demko, we probably could handle the loss of Markstrom.

[canucklehead44]

With Demko in net down the stretch you could feel this team was heading out of a playoff spot fast, even after mortgaging the future for Toffoli who was a great boost offensively.

 

he was great in the playoffs but that was only 4 games. In the regular season he was not very good and Holtby was one of the poorest performing goaltenders in the NHL last season. 
 

Markstrom, Hughes, and EP were really special players for us last year and losing Markstrom is going to hurt. If we brought a Toffoli back (in addition to Schmidt) we could have been built around offence but now I feel we have that hole up front, our D is still weak (Schmidt is a good all around player but more utility offensively), and goaltending is a massive question mark that could be solid or fail miserably. 

[WeneedLumme]

On December 4, 2020 at 4:16 PM, theo5789 said:

Well our defense is improving with the addition of Schmidt and combined with the addition of Holtby and the improvement of Demko, we probably could handle the loss of Markstrom.

Given Holtby's resume when he has a good goalie coach, and Demko's continued development and spectacular playoff performance, it remains to be seen if our goaltending has actually taken a step back at all from the loss of Markie.

 

And given the fact that for the first time in almost a decade, we have not only two legit top pairing Dmen, but two more legit (and big!) top four Dmen and several very promising young Dmen fighting it out for bottom pairing jobs, I see our D becoming a strong point.

 

Honestly, how many teams have one goalie with a Vezina trophy and Cup ring, the other with career playoff numbers that are insane, supported by two legit top pairing Dmen backed up by two other legit top four Dmen?

 

It seems to me that anyone at this point who is still whining that our D-corps is very weak/one of the worst in the league, is either being willfully obtuse, or is just plain obtuse.

[peaches5]

It will be interesting to see how Markstrom does without Ian Clark. When he wasn't working with Ian his game suffered. Is he going to be able to pull himself out of a rut? I have a feeling that Markstrom is going to be mediocre in Calgary. Calgary has had terrible goalies so he will be far better than what they have had but I don't think he will be a top 10 goalie in Calgary. 

[Jetliner]

On 12/2/2020 at 9:11 AM, MikeyD said:

https://www.sportsnet.ca/590/hockey-central-at-noon/dec-1-i-heard-they-were-doing-thumb-wrestling-or-something/

On the December 1st edition of Hockey Central, they bring on Steve Valiquette who does analysis for the New York Rangers and has a great history of analyzing modern goaltending and tracking statistics that's a better, more modern take on the "eye test" that many of us who have played and understood the game can finally flesh out with goaltenders. I recommend most of the podcast just for listening, but the part that is very interesting (and his take I agree wholeheartedly with) is around the time of 40:05 where Jeff asks the question, "Is there a goalie that you've analyzed that you feel would have a better name if he weren't playing on a bad team?" and his immediate answer is Jacob Markstrom. 

He goes on to break down the analytics of why Markstrom has been one of the best goaltenders in the past 3 years. Not only does he allow an incredibly low amount of low-danger chances get through him (last year he had ZERO.... Z-E-R-O during the regular season on another analysist's report), but he also stopped an incredibly large amount of high danger chances. Now most of us know Markstrom is a good goaltender, but I'm not sure how many understand just HOW good of a goaltender he was for us. I think Steve Valiquette is right, I don't think the team would be anywhere near as good if it weren't for him and I don't think they'd even stand a chance at getting into the playoffs without his performance. 

Now obviously with cap issues, somebody had to go. I'm still personally not quite sure letting go of Markstrom was the right deal (as opposed to playing both Demko and Markstrom this year, and getting an asset out of trading away Demko at the deadline). There's definitely a risk to giving Markstrom that huge contract as he's aging, but I've always been a guy who has the mindset of "if you have something elite, you can't just let it walk away". Goaltending is the most important position in the game and we're taking a huge gamble for the cost of 6 million dollars. Jim Benning is definitely thinking long-term, but I wonder what the repercussions could possibly be on development if goaltending doesn't get the team to where it needs to be (in the playoffs). 

I'm crossing my fingers Demko pans out. Goaltending is not an easy position to fill and getting consistent elite goaltending is as hard as finding a first line player. I think a large part of our success is riding on a young goalie. Fortunately for us, Demko is used to being "the guy" and his trajectory is showing fairly decently that he'll be a starter. The team has to grow significantly to become a contender anyways, but having an inconsistent goaltender could derail the entire rebuild. 

With that said, Go Canucks Go! Hockey still feels forever away. I can't wait to see how Demmer performs! I really hope he proves my worries to be ridiculous! 

I think most of us can agree without Markstrom we would have been a bottom 5 team in the league. but good for you to acknowledge that now. Lets hope he sucks so we can crush Calgary

[Shirotashi]

On 12/2/2020 at 10:11 AM, MikeyD said:

https://www.sportsnet.ca/590/hockey-central-at-noon/dec-1-i-heard-they-were-doing-thumb-wrestling-or-something/

On the December 1st edition of Hockey Central, they bring on Steve Valiquette who does analysis for the New York Rangers and has a great history of analyzing modern goaltending and tracking statistics that's a better, more modern take on the "eye test" that many of us who have played and understood the game can finally flesh out with goaltenders. I recommend most of the podcast just for listening, but the part that is very interesting (and his take I agree wholeheartedly with) is around the time of 40:05 where Jeff asks the question, "Is there a goalie that you've analyzed that you feel would have a better name if he weren't playing on a bad team?" and his immediate answer is Jacob Markstrom. 

He goes on to break down the analytics of why Markstrom has been one of the best goaltenders in the past 3 years. Not only does he allow an incredibly low amount of low-danger chances get through him (last year he had ZERO.... Z-E-R-O during the regular season on another analysist's report), but he also stopped an incredibly large amount of high danger chances. Now most of us know Markstrom is a good goaltender, but I'm not sure how many understand just HOW good of a goaltender he was for us. I think Steve Valiquette is right, I don't think the team would be anywhere near as good if it weren't for him and I don't think they'd even stand a chance at getting into the playoffs without his performance. 

Now obviously with cap issues, somebody had to go. I'm still personally not quite sure letting go of Markstrom was the right deal (as opposed to playing both Demko and Markstrom this year, and getting an asset out of trading away Demko at the deadline). There's definitely a risk to giving Markstrom that huge contract as he's aging, but I've always been a guy who has the mindset of "if you have something elite, you can't just let it walk away". Goaltending is the most important position in the game and we're taking a huge gamble for the cost of 6 million dollars. Jim Benning is definitely thinking long-term, but I wonder what the repercussions could possibly be on development if goaltending doesn't get the team to where it needs to be (in the playoffs). 

I'm crossing my fingers Demko pans out. Goaltending is not an easy position to fill and getting consistent elite goaltending is as hard as finding a first line player. I think a large part of our success is riding on a young goalie. Fortunately for us, Demko is used to being "the guy" and his trajectory is showing fairly decently that he'll be a starter. The team has to grow significantly to become a contender anyways, but having an inconsistent goaltender could derail the entire rebuild. 

With that said, Go Canucks Go! Hockey still feels forever away. I can't wait to see how Demmer performs! I really hope he proves my worries to be ridiculous! 

Markstrom was not THAT good sorry. He was IMO in that part of a goalies development curve where he got the league

figured out so he looks awesome at times, but the league has HIM figured out too so he gets exposed on some softies

at some very bad times. I thought the game got in his head a bit. 

[iceman64]

On 12/2/2020 at 9:26 AM, Jimmy McGill said:

We're a victim of his later career  success. We just can't afford to pay him for the term he wants. 

 

I have my doubts he can repeat this performance, without a combination of extra rest, good goalie coaching and staying injury free. If Calgary rides him the way Green did I can't see him staying healthy going forward but we'll see. 

feel sorry for the guy though, nice contract and all but it's with Calgary.. well for that kind of money I'd keep my mouth shut about how much it sucks and gfo as soon as the post season was over and laugh my ass off all the way to the bank

[JM_]

6 hours ago, iceman64 said:

feel sorry for the guy though, nice contract and all but it's with Calgary.. well for that kind of money I'd keep my mouth shut about how much it sucks and gfo as soon as the post season was over and laugh my ass off all the way to the bank

yeah its a tough choice.... 6 mil per to live in Calgary... not an easy decision 

[Boudrias]

I am glad Marky got his payday. He won many games last year that he should not have. Played lites out. He often made the Van d-core look better than they were. For me it is all about 2-3 years out. Adding players to the young mix that is already here and then making a serious CUP run. This group should be competitive for a number of years. Benning had to make the decision of which goalie he wanted for serious CUP contention and picked Demko. Demko will need more playing time than Markstrom would have allowed.  

[ruilin96]

On 12/2/2020 at 9:11 AM, MikeyD said:

https://www.sportsnet.ca/590/hockey-central-at-noon/dec-1-i-heard-they-were-doing-thumb-wrestling-or-something/

He goes on to break down the analytics of why Markstrom has been one of the best goaltenders in the past 3 years. Not only does he allow an incredibly low amount of low-danger chances get through him (last year he had ZERO.... Z-E-R-O during the regular season on another analysist's report), 

Very bold statement. I can remember Marky giving up a few soft goals last season (although very few compare to his other years) but they still happen. I personally don't believe there is a single starting goalie in the league who has not given up a single soft goal in the season. It is a long season, and flukes does happen.

[MikeyD]

5 hours ago, ruilin96 said:

Very bold statement. I can remember Marky giving up a few soft goals last season (although very few compare to his other years) but they still happen. I personally don't believe there is a single starting goalie in the league who has not given up a single soft goal in the season. It is a long season, and flukes does happen.

Yeah it was a metric based on an opinion and I believe their metric was a shot from a specific distance away unscreened was considered a "bad goal". Don't quote me on that but I'm pretty sure that was the metric they used to analyze that one. 

[D-Money]

On 12/2/2020 at 11:33 AM, BCNate said:

Markstrom was great for us and will be tough to replace.  With that said, signing a 6 year x 6 mill deal with a full NMC that is buyout proof when we have Demko ready to go would have been the wrong move.  I'd be willing to bet in 2 years time when we are truly ready to compete for the cup, Demko will be the better of the two goalies.  

 

I'm a huge Markstrom fan, wish him well, but this was the right move to make.

Agree wholeheartedly.

 

I suspect there is a good chance that the team will take a step back this year. (Then again, after 2 serious injuries, and getting into his 30s, we might have done that anyway even if we kept Marky.) In the long term, it’s for the best.