Tank Hard for Bedard - Playoff chances are already Slim

[Baratheon]

5 minutes ago, HKSR said:

You must truly be a rookie fan.  I would happily like to see the Canucks crutch their way to their first ever Stanley Cup win.

80's Oilers and Wayne "The Crutch" Gretzky was the first thing I thought of lol

[CanuckRookieFan]

48 minutes ago, Baratheon said:

80's Oilers and Wayne "The Crutch" Gretzky was the first thing I thought of lol

That's not true at all.. Oilers in the 80s had a plethora of elite players a super core they build around Gretzky.

 

A crutch is relying on ONE standout player that somehow is better than everyone else (which is an enigma on its own as everyone in the NHL top 20 scoring is almost identical in skill and ability given they are all elite so how can someone still be above elite).. 

 

Basically if you have a #1 draft pick generational talent your team accomplishments will have an asterisk. There is something to be said winning as an underdog or winning without elite assets now thats impressive i am sorry but I think most would agree with me.

Edited November 15, 2022 by CanuckRookieFan

[Baratheon]

3 minutes ago, CanuckRookieFan said:

That's not true at all.. Oilers in the 80s had a plethora of elite players a super core they build around Gretzky.

 

A crutch is relying on ONE standout player that somehow is better than everyone else (which is an enigma on its own as everyone in the NHL top 20 scoring is almost identical in skill and ability given they are all elite so how can someone still be above elite).. 

 

Basically if you have a #1 draft pick generational talent your team accomplishments will have an asterisk. There is something to be said winning as an underdog or winning without elite assets now thats impressive i am sorry but I think most would agree with me.

I hear you!  You're right about the Oil.  Their team was bonkers!

 

Underdog stories are cool no doubt.  There's a reason why movies are made about them.  I still don't think any of Gretzky, Lemiuex, Crosby, Ovechkin, Orr, Howe etc. have "asterisks" next to their cups.  

 

 

[Sativika]

Do modern NHL teams deliberately tank? I mean....is there anyway to make it NOT obvious? Well....Not to be a Debbie Downer, but our Canucks seem to be sincerely tanking! If that's the case, but I don't think so. We're just mired in cap hell! Things that the previous JB management and our present JR management did and did not do conspired to put us where we're at now.

 

- Shoulda' traded JT Miller, not sign him. Yea, yea. I know. We coulda' lost him for nothing if we held on to him. But at least they coulda' taken the best trade available come this deadline.

 

- Myer's.....same deal. unfortunately, still with us. Hmmm....trade deadline in a few months...

 

- Pearson, Garland, Poolman.....as above.

 

- OEL cannot be moved 'cuz of his contract. No one wants him except Benning! But if we could??????!?!?!?!?!? So...Keep OEL and Scehnnn for veteran D-core reasons.

 

- Some of the recent acquisitions are okay for now. I like Bear, and the two Russians. 

 

- As for our young draft picks, keep Pods......trade Hoglander, I dunno...who else.

 

There's so many factors affecting our season. And they've been discussed in CDC ad nauseam!

 

The point I'm making, after going SOOOOOO far off topic is...

.......A change in captaincy IMO, isn't gonna make a lick of difference.

[wai_lai416]

22 minutes ago, CanuckRookieFan said:

That's not true at all.. Oilers in the 80s had a plethora of elite players a super core they build around Gretzky.

 

A crutch is relying on ONE standout player that somehow is better than everyone else (which is an enigma on its own as everyone in the NHL top 20 scoring is almost identical in skill and ability given they are all elite so how can someone still be above elite).. 

 

Basically if you have a #1 draft pick generational talent your team accomplishments will have an asterisk. There is something to be said winning as an underdog or winning without elite assets now thats impressive i am sorry but I think most would agree with me.

lol wth are you even talking about.. there's not 1 team that won the cup because of a #1 draft pick generational talent.. pittsburgh won the cup because of crosby?? you know the 1st cup? malkin? fluery? letang? gonchar? their 2nd and 3rd cup? kessel malkin fleury letang etc? Crosby wasn't even the top scorer in any of their stanley cup win.. even washington.. they were easily led by kuznetsov that year.. what team have won the cup because of a #1 overall generational pick by himself where he was heads and shoulder above the rest of the team and carried them to the cup?? a generational player is only 1 of 20 players on the team in a game.. how many teams have won the cup without an elite asset that's one of the most dominant player in their position that year?? prolly just the st louis blues? i guess every cup winners should have a asterisk next to their win since other than st louis in recent years.. there's not a single team that won the cup without a player that's arguable the top 3 in their respective position on the team that year.

 

[MaxVerstappen33]

24 minutes ago, Sativika said:

Do modern NHL teams deliberately tank? I mean....is there anyway to make it NOT obvious?

Some totally do. The Coyotes last year totally tanked. When you are taking bad non performing players in exchange for competing teams draft picks, it is a total tank. 

 

Do capped out teams who wanted to make the playoffs tank ? No. Do they intentionally let goals in night to night to tank ? No. Not usaully 

 

Therein lies the predicament the Canucks are in. We are still too good to continue this tank. We have to make roster moves to get worse if we want to sustain the tank. If not, we will still finish with 85-90 points.

 

Drances whole podcast today was basically about how we have to make moves to sustain the tank. https://open.spotify.com/show/1Y8dm4XhmHHUw3VGZhoizN  And he's right. 

Edited November 15, 2022 by MaxVerstappen33

[Warhippy]

5 hours ago, ilduce39 said:

I hate the idea of Tanking but if there’s any year to do it, it’s this one.  Even if we go full sell mode at the deadline we’ll be adding Bedard (or whoever) to a fairly *talented* lineup even if they’re playing like dog poop.  

Honestly, this feels like how contender-level teams materialize.  Years of futility get you a decent young / prime core, they have a crappy year and land that generational talent, and poof you have a team that probably shouldn’t be drafting 1 OA adding the icing to the cake.

If we can keep Pettersson, Hughes Podkolzin and move off essential other pieces and draft very high over the next three years we'll have done a successful rebuild like this suggests.  keeping the best parts of a young core and drafting elite/franchise defining talent around it

[Provost]

2 hours ago, J-23 said:

Carlsson was being called Sundin 2.0

Yep…. So if you miss out on Bedard, you can go for Fantelli who has been compared with Lindros… or Carlson who has been compared with Sundin.  Lots of other candidates at C in the top 10.

 

Probably 3-5 guys who would go #1 in many drafts.

 

The fun comments and to tank for Bedard… but really you are tanking for any one of these guys 

[UnkNuk]

9 hours ago, -AJ- said:

Thought I'd throw this in here since it's relevant to this discussion.

 

For us to get to 99 points, which would almost guarantee we made the playoffs (the bar is probably a few points lower than this), we would need a .667 point percentage for the remainder of the year. The odds of us doing so well are indeed exceedingly low. Even a very hot finish like we did last year wouldn't be enough.

 

I'm not on board for our players to give up, but something seems broken, so I would be okay if management made some decision--whether that's dealing with coaching or making trades.

Something to keep in mind:

 

Over the last ten 82 game seasons, a team needed an average of 94 points to get the last wild card spot in the Western Conference.

 

The points needed to get the last wild card spot in those ten years ranged from a high of 97 points (.591 pp average) to a low of 87 points (.530 pp average).

 

Right now, the team currently in the last wild card spot (Calgary) has a .533 pp average.  The team just below them (Minnesota) also has a .533 pp average.  And the team immediately below them (Chicago) has a .500 pp average.

 

This may suggest that the points needed to get into the playoffs this season as the last wild card may be on the low side.  Closer to 87 points than 97 points.

 

A straw to clutch at for those fans who still want to see the Canucks make the playoffs this year.

 

 

[-AJ-]

11 minutes ago, UnkNuk said:

Something to keep in mind:

 

Over the last ten 82 game seasons, a team needed an average of 94 points to get the last wild card spot in the Western Conference.

 

The points needed to get the last wild card spot in those ten years ranged from a high of 97 points (.591 pp average) to a low of 87 points (.530 pp average).

 

Right now, the team currently in the last wild card spot (Calgary) has a .533 pp average.  The team just below them (Minnesota) also has a .533 pp average.  And the team immediately below them (Chicago) has a .500 pp average.

 

This may suggest that the points needed to get into the playoffs this season as the last wild card may be on the low side.  Closer to 87 points than 97 points.

 

A straw to clutch at for those fans who still want to see the Canucks make the playoffs this year.

 

 

Yes, I was definitely making the chances seem slimmer than they are, as I know that could be pushback. A more realistic number to aim for is about 95 points, though that doesn't drastically change how well we need to play.

[Jester13]

5 hours ago, Fred65 said:

What I find amusing is Chicago have pretty well oppenly suggested they're going to tank and rebuild the season  are O/A 8 spots above Vcr who have stated their intendt is to make the play-off  

[aGENT]

21 minutes ago, UnkNuk said:

A straw to clutch at for those fans who still want to see the Canucks make the playoffs this year.

 

 

[Fred65]

4 hours ago, kilgore said:

I find it amusing that people think a player or coach can, or will even try, to tank the season while it’s happening.

 

 Tanking is on the management with moves towards that first at the trade deadline then the following summer. to set up the tank for the new season. 
that’s the ideal time. A GM could still try and begin the process in mid season but it would be more difficult for other teams to take on the size of contracts you are offering with their own rosters and cap set.

 But either way it’s up to JR and owners to tank, it has nothing to do with the players. And if management had wanted that for this season, they kinda missed the boat

 

 Players and coaches will never purposely tank. No matter how much a message board pleads then to. Players and coaches are playing for the next contract. As well most athletes that make it to this level are highly competitive and want to win every game.

 

 Why would a player purposely play like crap only to be sent to the minors or have his next contract reduced all so the team who used to value him gets to pick a couple of spots higher at the draft? Maybe even get a young stud that will make his own job redundant?

 Not gonna happen

 

 

 

 

 

 

You may or maybe you didn't notice I didn't say it was player that would tank yes it's the management as a whole who trade players to lesson the chance of success. But no one can explain why why players stop playing as a team or don't carry out coaches instruction. Vcr has lots of skill ( individually ) but  are losing consistently, that's not the managers fault

[PunjabiCanucks]

Miller could fetch a 1st rd and b prospect

Boeser and a mid round for - 1st rounder?

Garland - 2nd rounder?

Pearson- 4th Pick?

Kuzmenko - 2rd pick  - cheap for teams

Mikheyev- 3rd pick

Stillman - 5th round pick?

-

OEL- 3rd round pick?

Myers- 3rd round pick?

Schenn- 2nd round pick

 

[JustABandwagoner]

11 minutes ago, PunjabiCanucks said:

Miller could fetch a 1st rd and b prospect

Boeser and a mid round for - 1st rounder?

Garland - 2nd rounder?

Pearson- 4th Pick?

Kuzmenko - 2rd pick  - cheap for teams

Mikheyev- 3rd pick

Stillman - 5th round pick?

-

OEL- 3rd round pick?

Myers- 3rd round pick?

Schenn- 2nd round pick

 

Miller is hard to trade. Pretty much unmoveable. 

Boeser is literally a cap dump 

Garland value is around a 2nd round pick sure. 

Pearson is around a 6th i would say

Kuz no idea 

Mikeyev has 3 years remaining hes not going anywhere 

Stillman - waiver fodder 

 

OEL- LMFAO. He has negative value. Gotta give us Lekierrimaki at least to get rid of him 

Myers 50% retained maybe a 4th 

[DownUndaCanuck]

Realistically the way we've been so far, we should be aiming for a top-5 pick, Fantilli would be a big win, and ideally acquire another 1st somewhere along the season.

 

Sadly I think what will happen is we'll go on a little winning streak and stay slightly competitive but always around 3-5 wins out of a playoff spot. Trade deadline will come, we won't sell any players, and we'll fall short yet again, then there'll be a little mini retool in the off-season.

 

JR needs to grow a pair, go against Aquilini and just blow this team up. All the fans are ready, we all know what needs to be done.

[captainhorvat]

The best part about all this is we don’t even have to try to tank…we are that bad

[DownUndaCanuck]

1 hour ago, captainhorvat said:

The best part about all this is we don’t even have to try to tank…we are that bad

Crazy to see teams who are trying to tank like SJS and Chicago are doing far better than we are. Even Arizona is creaming us and that says something, considering they're just a bunch of AHLers and rookies. 

[Ghostsof1915]

7 hours ago, PunjabiCanucks said:

Miller could fetch a 1st rd and b prospect

Boeser and a mid round for - 1st rounder?

Garland - 2nd rounder?

Pearson- 4th Pick?

Kuzmenko - 2rd pick  - cheap for teams

Mikheyev- 3rd pick

Stillman - 5th round pick?

-

OEL- 3rd round pick?

Myers- 3rd round pick?

Schenn- 2nd round pick

 

Have you seen Millers contract? I highly doubt you'd get anyone to bite.

Boeser would be lucky to get a 2nd let alone a 1st.

Garland late 1st or 2nd.

Pearson - depends on how desperate the team is (i.e. trade deadline) he's good for the playoffs he might get you a 3rd.

And we're trading Kuz because?

Same with Mik.

Stillman would be future considerations.

 

OEL, like Miller no one is going to touch that contract.

Myers. A 3rd next year maybe.

You'd be crazy to get rid of Schenn, he's our best defenceman most nights.

 

Hughes would get you a RHD, and a pick or prospect if not more.

Bo only if there's an impasse in negotiations, he should get a you a good haul.

 

 

[HKSR]

Guys let's face the truth.  The best shot this team has at finishing last overall is to keep playing this same roster.  Oh and maybe bench guys like Kuzmenko, or at least replace him with a slower player with less hockey IQ.