Coronavirus outbreak

[Russ]

1 hour ago, skategal said:

Interesting that she now doesn't believe in it?  No clear scientific understanding yet on what if any level of immunity is created if one has been infected so not something I'd be gambling on with my health.  

She goes to those freedom rallies (or says in Facebook she is now I highly doubt she actually drives out to them). 

[-DLC-]

2 hours ago, Russ said:

I really want to get that for a friend who swears she had it in November when she was really sick at one point and keeps telling everyone shes already had COVID at the beginning of it and now doesn't believe in it.  Somehow claims she got it November or right at the beginning of December when it was barely even known at that time, I don't remember hearing about it until later to mid december.

I honestly feel that, psychologically, people "believe" they're fine/immune/whatever because it's far too fearful to think otherwise.  Like a defense mechanism that really just compromises the REAL protection...which is being ultra safe.

 

I was sicker than I've ever been in December....couldn't even get out of bed.  I never take sick time, ever, and took 2 days off.  I "wondered" too, like your friend...but that does not get in the way of assuming I could get this and pass it around.  Because uncertainty doesn't give us permission to decide otherwise.

 

Conflicted...love the new job.  Hate that, at times, I share a small office with someone who doesn't wear a mask.  Delicate situation, but going to ask that she does wear one when we're both in there at the same time (which was the case yesterday for 4 hours).  Other people also come/go out of there so the "traffic" in such a small space is worrying for me.  Everyone, at this point, should be on board.  I find it a very selfish thing to put others in an uncomfortable position.

[Ghostsof1915]

I had a flu in February. Just flu symptoms. My doctor asked me was I travelling or near the airport, I said no. But I was out for a week. The fever was bad and took 4 days to break. But I had no covid type symptoms. Didn't lose my sense of smell or taste, nor trouble breathing. 

 

If you look around on Facebook or any social media you'll see people that run the entire gamut of what level of protection to have, and some to just plain deny there's an issue.

I guess all the deaths mean nothing to some people. 

[Sharpshooter]

22 minutes ago, debluvscanucks said:

I honestly feel that, psychologically, people "believe" they're fine/immune/whatever because it's far too fearful to think otherwise.  Like a defense mechanism that really just compromises the REAL protection...which is being ultra safe.

 

I was sicker than I've ever been in December....couldn't even get out of bed.  I never take sick time, ever, and took 2 days off.  I "wondered" too, like your friend...but that does not get in the way of assuming I could get this and pass it around.  Because uncertainty doesn't give us permission to decide otherwise.

 

Conflicted...love the new job.  Hate that, at times, I share a small office with someone who doesn't wear a mask.  Delicate situation, but going to ask that she does wear one when we're both in there at the same time (which was the case yesterday for 4 hours).  Other people also come/go out of there so the "traffic" in such a small space is worrying for me.  Everyone, at this point, should be on board.  I find it a very selfish thing to put others in an uncomfortable position.

Maybe politely ask her if she’d like to wear a mask or perhaps leave a new pack masks in the office on both desks to give her a subtle reminder and the opportunity to wear it. If it’s there right in front of her she might be more inclined to put one on. She may even be grateful that you provided it for both your protection.  Just a suggestion for your mental/physical health at work.   

[RUPERTKBD]

I think this lawyer is bluffing, but if not, I hope the judge nails his posterior to the wall and makes his client responsible for all court costs:

 

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/windsor-restaurant-threatened-with-human-rights-action-after-mask-dispute-at-takeout-window/ar-BB1a1EKy?li=AAggNb9

 

Quote

 

After refusing food to a customer who wouldn't wear a mask at a walk-up takeout window, a local Thai restaurant was given an ultimatum: pay $20,000 or be taken to a human rights tribunal. 

Thai Palace received a hand-delivered letter Friday from Antoine d'Ailly Law Office, which states a claim of discrimination will be filed against the restaurant for violating the Ontario Human Rights Code. The letter demands that the owner hand over any and all video footage of the incident, which it says occurred on Oct. 7.

It also says the restaurant can settle the issue and avoid "the necessity of a formal process" by paying $20,000.

The restaurant's server Nhu Dang was working at the takeout window when the incident took place. 

"He came to pick up his takeout order and I politely asked him to put on a mask and he said he couldn't and I tried to explain the reasons why we have our policy and any alternatives that he can do to be able to get his takeout but clearly he didn't want to," Dang told CBC News. 

She said she also offered to give the man a disposable mask. 

After a few minutes, Dang said she went to grab Thai Palace co-owner Renu Anderson. 

"I said 'Sir what's happening? what's wrong? Because like why you don't want to wear the mask?' and he just started yelling at me and said I have human rights ... you can't ask me for doctor's notes. I said,'You know, I run this place, I'm small business, I need to make sure my staff are safe and my customers are safe,'" Renu said. 

Mask signs posted 

She added that she told the man, who identified himself as a lawyer, that he could leave if he wasn't going to wear a mask. 

CBC News called Antoine d'Ailly Law Office four times and sent an email seeking comment on the letter, but have not received a response. It's not clear if the firm is representing someone or the lawyer was the one involved in the incident.

 

Posted outside the restaurant are signs that say customers must be wearing a face mask. If someone is unable to wear one, the restaurant said they have a delivery service. 

In addition to threatening human rights action, the letter from the law office has requested that it receives a copy of the following evidence obtained between 7:30 p.m. and 8 p.m. on Oct. 7: 

• Any an all camera footage showing the parking lot of the establishment. 
• Any and all camera footage showing the pick-up window from the interior and exterior of the establishment. 
• Any and all camera footage showing the kitchen and any other area inside the establishment visible from the pick-up window. 
• The phone records of incoming and outgoing calls from the phone being operated by the person attending the pick-up window, including phone numbers and durations of any such calls
• A list of the names of all persons employed or otherwise present at the establishment, including contact information and job title. 

The letter ends by saying that if the owners fail to respond on or before Oct. 16 at 5 p.m., the offer to settle will be revoked and human rights action will take place. 

"I don't think it has any merit. We have the right to refuse service," Thai Palace co-owner Charles Anderson said. "This is our business our establishment, if you don't want to follow the government rules, stay home." 

Businesses reserve right to refuse service, lawyer says 

The Windsor-Essex County Health Unit has said that when people cannot maintain six feet of distance from one another, they are advised to wear a mask but it is not mandatory. 

During the health unit's daily briefing Wednesday, Medical Officer of Health Wajid Ahmed said in a drive-thru where the distance between the server and the person is more than 2 metres and no direct interaction is taking place, it might be okay.

"But in a different type of takeout window where you are talking about the physical distancing piece that that cannot be maintained, then obviously we would recommend that people should be wearing a mask," he said. 

Neither the health unit's section 22 order nor the city's mandatory masking bylaw outline any rules on wearing a mask at a takeout window. 

Corporate and commercial lawyer Adam Savaglio told CBC News that businesses do have the right to refuse service to customers, as long as they don't discriminate against them. 

"Businesses are trying to operate during the pandemic and in such a case, they should be given some flexibility, which many of these laws do not [have], in allowing them to figure out how they can best protect their employees," Savaglio said. "It's a very difficult time [with] fluid circumstances every day."

If someone has a disability, Savaglio said there should be a discussion between the person and business to see if an accommodation can be made.

As far as the offer to settle for $20,000, Savaglio said demand letters like these are becoming common practice.

"In the legal world sometimes it's seen as a courtesy to commencing litigation," Savaglio said.

Already challenging year

As a small restaurant, the owners said they are frustrated and noted that this incident only adds to an already difficult year for their business. 

"Every small business is struggling," Charles said. "It's hard right now and COVID rates are rising. Everybody has to be careful and do their due diligence not to spread the disease, we're just trying to do our part." 

Thai Palace said it is already incurring costs and is getting a lawyer of its own. 

 

 

[Gurn]

Restaurant has a delivery service, lawyer could have just sat in his car and phoned to get the food delivered to his car.

 

[Chicken.]

14 minutes ago, bulldust said:

There is a VERY solid argument that places like British Columbia achieved herd immunity before the World was even aware of the COVID “pandemic” and before wide scale testing was rolled out. YVR receives 26,000 seats from flights direct from China each week, and there are no shortage of stories where people were very sick back in Dec-March (with fairly unique symptoms) and were never tested. BC has some of the lowest case and death counts in the World. Is this the result of the fact BC already dealt with COVID? This thesis is far more realistic than Dr. Bonnie waving a magic wand over the province to somehow protect everyone from COVID; we are not that different from other provinces and countries. This thesis is also well supported by COVID data, now that we have it. Countries like Sweden are a prime example.

 

Re. Masks - New research from the CDC shows that masks are highly ineffective, as a study showed that the highest number of COVID cases were found in a group who “always wore masks“ while other groups who did not wear masks were not infected at nearly as high of a rate. Is this because people who wear masks think they are protected, despite the science clearly showing that masks do not protect the wearer, or is this because masks weaken the immune system? Either is a possibility, but the CDC data makes the mask debate pretty clear.

 

As well, data from the CDC and WHO shows that the effective Worldwide survival rate for COVID is 99.84%. This is comparable to the common flu. Being worried or afraid of COVID is akin to being afraid of the flu. While some people are susceptible to the flu, humans have never been fear stricken by it. This mentality is the result of fear mongering by the mainstream media and Orgs like the WHO. Asking someone else to wear a mask when they are around you, is understandable, but very questionable given the data.

My anecdotal evidence supports this somewhat as I was brutally sick in December 2019 with what I now recognize as covid like symptoms specifically breathing difficulties. that is the last time I was really sick. maybe an odd coincidence. 

 

I still take precautions though of course to protect others in my bubble.

[Fanuck]

2 hours ago, debluvscanucks said:

 

Conflicted...love the new job.  Hate that, at times, I share a small office with someone who doesn't wear a mask.  Delicate situation, but going to ask that she does wear one when we're both in there at the same time (which was the case yesterday for 4 hours).  Other people also come/go out of there so the "traffic" in such a small space is worrying for me.  Everyone, at this point, should be on board.  I find it a very selfish thing to put others in an uncomfortable position.

I thought in schools masks were supposed to be worn at all times when physical distancing cannot be followed - which, in a typical school setting I would imagine that would be all the time?

[bishopshodan]

34 minutes ago, bulldust said:

There is a VERY solid argument that places like British Columbia achieved herd immunity before the World was even aware of the COVID “pandemic” and before wide scale testing was rolled out. YVR receives 26,000 seats from flights direct from China each week, and there are no shortage of stories where people were very sick back in Dec-March (with fairly unique symptoms) and were never tested. BC has some of the lowest case and death counts in the World. Is this the result of the fact BC already dealt with COVID? This thesis is far more realistic than Dr. Bonnie waving a magic wand over the province to somehow protect everyone from COVID; we are not that different from other provinces and countries. This thesis is also well supported by COVID data, now that we have it. Countries like Sweden are a prime example.

 

Re. Masks - New research from the CDC shows that masks are highly ineffective, as a study showed that the highest number of COVID cases were found in a group who “always wore masks“ while other groups who did not wear masks were not infected at nearly as high of a rate. Is this because people who wear masks think they are protected, despite the science clearly showing that masks do not protect the wearer, or is this because masks weaken the immune system? Either is a possibility, but the CDC data makes the mask debate pretty clear.

 

As well, data from the CDC and WHO shows that the effective Worldwide survival rate for COVID is 99.84%. This is comparable to the common flu. Being worried or afraid of COVID is akin to being afraid of the flu. While some people are susceptible to the flu, humans have never been fear stricken by it. This mentality is the result of fear mongering by the mainstream media and Orgs like the WHO. Asking someone else to wear a mask when they are around you, is understandable, but very questionable given the data.

I just was listening a Dr on tv that said no virus has ever achieved natural herd immunity. Due to it's highly contagious nature he said that the best candidate would be mumps ( or maybe he said measles) which was mostly eradicated due to vaccines but the the anti-vaxxer movement has enabled it to start popping up again. 

 

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2257258-it-is-bad-science-to-say-covid-19-infections-will-create-herd-immunity/

Edited October 15, 2020 by bishopshodan
added article

[JM_]

24 minutes ago, bishopshodan said:

I just was listening a Dr on tv that said no virus has ever achieved natural herd immunity. Due to it's highly contagious nature he said that the best candidate would be mumps ( or maybe he said measles) which was mostly eradicated due to vaccines but the the anti-vaxxer movement has enabled it to start popping up again. 

 

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2257258-it-is-bad-science-to-say-covid-19-infections-will-create-herd-immunity/

herd immunity makes no sense if covid acts like the flu and you can catch variants of it every year. The only way to get enough protection to return to normal is vaccination, not getting everyone sick and hoping it goes away. 

[wloutet]

16 hours ago, canuck73_3 said:

There is a very dense population in Surrey. 

Love is "never having to say you're (from) Surrey" !!!

[surtur]

5 minutes ago, bishopshodan said:

Can you name a virus that in humans has been controlled by natural herd immunity?

 

In the article I posted the statement is ...'Herd immunity has only ever been attained by vaccination'.
 

 

Smallpox was originally controlled by a precursor to vaccinations by a treatment called variolation to help create a herd immunity in the late 1700's people still got sick with this treatment but it was not nearly as severe as no treatment.  prior to that it was all Natural immune response that was relied upon.

one interesting thing about smallpox was even as deadly as it was to many who contracted it back in the 1500's The Europeans has much higher resistance to this than the Native Americans so there could essentially be a case for that yes some form of herd immunity had occurred naturally in the European colonies. it could be or it could just be that the Europeans just knew to be careful around anyone showing symptoms so they limited the spread much better than the Natives. (in saying that it was also killing around a half million people each year as far as i recall pre any sort of treatment) 

 

"The immune system is a complex structure, built over a person’s life in response to environmental conditions. Antibodies, proteins that tag and attack viruses and bacteria, “remember” past invaders, allowing white blood cells to quickly respond during subsequent infections. Because different groups of people encounter different diseases—the European settlers had high exposure to smallpox, measles, and influenza thanks to close contact with livestock—they develop different antibodies."

an excerpt from a sciencemag.org article.

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/11/european-diseases-left-genetic-mark-native-americans

 

so i generally agree with you that rapid widespread herd immunity occurs through immunizations, there is plenty of evidence that shows over time Humans adapt and create natural immunity. (one argument is that the death toll is a significant stat between the two defiantly favoring immunizations)

I am not against Vaccinations in general i just feel that they are used for many diseases that our own immune response generally takes care of it for us and Vaccination is generally a non necessity for the general population other than a select few. Covid19 falls in this category to my understanding so far.

 

just from personal experience i would say that herd immunity to the coronavirus family does occur at least on a small scale. have you ever had a cold, got better passed it on to family members while still in the contagious stages, and then not gotten sick again from your family members giving it back to you? personally it happens all the time in my household.

[DrJockitch]

Herd immunity can only work if you get persistent immune responses.  That so far has not appeared to be the case in coronavirus, at least in a few cases.  Some people have caught it twice.

Now who knows what the confounding variables are here, if someone had a minor case maybe they didn't get full immunity like frequently happens in Chicken Pox.

Maybe the strain that seeded and grew in Italy has drifted enough that those who had the strain that came from China are not immune to the Italian strain.

Coronaviruses have always been a difficult one to deal with.  The Flu is relatively easy from an immunization strategy.

It is clear though that the US is moving for Herd immunity as an unwritten strategy.  They can't just come out and say we are going to let 1-2 million people die because it is easier and they are more heavily weighted to black, brown and urban populations.  So they release appropriate guidelines and then refuse to acknowledge or follow them.  The US lockdown ended pretty much the day that it was published that the frequency of death and serious disease was much higher in minority populations.  At this point when the American politicians use the term "Herd Immunity" it really means thinning the herd of what they consider undesirables.

[nuckin_futz]

Justin Trudeau: Canada-US border will stay closed until America gets COVID-19 under control

Don't bet on the U.S.-Canadian border reopening after the closure agreement expires Oct. 21.

 

In an interview Wednesday, Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau said his country is committed to keeping the border closed until the United States gets control of COVID-19.

"The U.S. is not in a place where we would feel comfortable reopening those borders," he told the hosts of "Smart Start," which airs on Canada's Global Television Network. “We will continue to make sure that Canadian safety is top of mind when we move forward. We see the cases in the United States and elsewhere around the world, and we need to continue to keep these border controls in place."

 

In the past week, 13 states – including Alaska, Minnesota, Montana and North Dakota, which border Canada – topped their own records for new cases in a seven-day period. North Dakota, which shares a 310-mile-long border with its northern neighbor, reports cases at a speed one-third faster on a per capita basis than any U.S. state experienced in the worst of the spring or summer surges.

 

An otherwise healthy 25-year-old Nevada man became the first American to contract COVID-19 twice, casting further doubt on the viability of the herd immunity strategy espoused by the White House. In his case, the second infection prompted stronger symptoms than the first. There have been more than 20 confirmed cases of reinfection worldwide.

 

Although its COVID-19 infection rate is far lower than that of the USA, Canada has not been immune from a second wave of cases.

 

According to the Canadian government, the country reported nearly 31,000 new cases and 372 deaths in the past two weeks. Cumulatively, it has had more than 193,000 cases and almost 9,750 deaths. The provinces of Quebec, which reported more than 7,000 new cases in the past week, and Ontario, which counted nearly 5,500, are in the worst shape, according to New York Times data.

 

"I think this second wave is really exhausting," Trudeau acknowledged. "It's frustrating for everyone to have to keep going through this. We showed that we can pull together and get through this, as we did in the spring. Then people got used to the slow burn in the summer. Now that cases are spiking again – with the approach of winter, with the approach of flu season – we need to get things back under control."

 

The upside, he said, is that "we know how to do it in a more targeted way now than in the spring. We know what kinds of businesses are more likely to spread COVID-19, what kinds of activities."

 

That approach, he said, "allows us to do the right things medically and keep us safe while not totally ruining people's economies."

 

Trudeau warned Canadian snowbirds to resist the urge to travel south in search of warmer climes.

 

"I know there's a lot of people worried about what's happening south of the border in Florida, Arizona, California and other places where the virus is not under control or less under control than we are here," he said. "The challenges around the health care system being overloaded down there and access to health insurance – making sure you have coverage in case something does happen – are a lot more difficult."

 

He said a travel advisory is as far as the government is willing to go.

 

"Ultimately, if someone chooses to travel, we're not going to keep them imprisoned in Canada. There's freedom of movement in this country," he said. "Still, people have to recognize they're putting themselves at risk, putting their loved ones at risk. And they may not have the right kind of health insurance or repatriation flights that we did early on if they choose to leave the country."

[Fanuck]

1 hour ago, nuckin_futz said:

Justin Trudeau: Canada-US border will stay closed until America gets COVID-19 under control

 

So he's saying essentially the border will  never re-open because....well...... American bleach therapy and all.....

[High and Inside]

2 hours ago, bulldust said:

I don’t have the stats, but almost everyone I know and have spoken to, was very sick in Dec or Jan. - COVID was in BC way before spring break. 
 

The same goes for my community in Costa Rica back in February - almost everyone in our touristy town was very sick. My family became ill after repairmen were in our house with persistent dry coughs, and ultimately, we had COVID symptoms. Now, with Costa Rica cases skyrocketing, the touristy towns in CR are seeing no impact from COVID. 
 

Sweden is another prime example. They had their own strategy and are now showing signs of herd immunity, as the country continues life as normal.

Your so far out of touch right now. If we had massive amounts of people sick back in December then we would

of also been seeing people showing up at the hospital doors on a ventilator and that didn’t happen in December. Also your claims about BC having any degree of herd immunity is totally false. The reason why are numbers are lower is due to spring break, travel, population density, lifestyle, weather. Our province has only one real densely populated city and that’s the lower mainland whereas eastern Canada is suburb after suburb. Same thing with the east coast USA. Our spring break was later so we couldn’t travel. Quebecers made spring trips to hard hit areas like France Italy and NYC. We get early springs so our population can spend way more time outside where the virus doesn’t transmit easily. I live in Kelowna and everything we do in the summer is outside covid or no covid. I

Dont think you have your facts right. Do some research. 

[bishopshodan]

I think this thread has consumed some bleach...

 

Seems to have cleaned some of my posts  and a certain herder away? Perhaps the bull is dust now? 

 

Maybe a dupe acct of a naughty poster from the past? 

[nuckin_futz]

6 minutes ago, bishopshodan said:

I think this thread has consumed some bleach...

 

Seems to have cleaned some of my posts  and a certain herder away? Perhaps the bull is dust now? 

 

Maybe a dupe acct of a naughty poster from the past? 

The first clue is always when a brand new account goes directly to the Off Topic forum and either the Covid or Trump threads.

 

 

Edited October 15, 2020 by nuckin_futz

[bishopshodan]

Just now, nuckin_futz said:

The first clue is always when a brand new account goes directly to the Off Topic forum and and either the Covid or Trump threads.

 

 

Yeah,  very good point as this is a hockey site. I don't think I even came over to Off Topic for my first couple years here. 

[kingofsurrey]

France has reported a large jump in new Covid-19 cases ahead of a night-time curfew being imposed on Paris and eight other cities on Saturday.

 

A further 30,621 infections were confirmed on Thursday, up from 22,591 the day before.

The World Health Organization (WHO) has warned that tough restrictions are "absolutely necessary" to save lives.

 

Millions in Europe have been told they must live under strict new measures as governments battle a second wave.

From Saturday, socialising indoors will be banned in London, as the UK capital and other areas of England will be put under a higher Covid alert.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-54557549