Elias Pettersson | Quinn Hughes - Contract Discussion Thread

[TheNewGM]

these players are really not worth much anymore..

 

barely "franchise" players anymore IMO. very elite players, yes. BUT

 

THEY ARE UNPROVEN!! I do not want to see big term or money or the curse of the canucks will never end.

[UKNuck96]

4 hours ago, Chris12345 said:

I was thinking 5% in the league so just high level 150 centers 5% = 7.5 centers round to 8 for elite plus 1 generation.

 

I am of the belief you can't have multiple generation players bundled together in the same positions.

 

I think Petey is very good but not elite. Bo is there too but a different player.

 

Not as good as McDavid, Crosby, McKinnon, etc.

 

 

You cannot quantify elite or generational by making an arbitrary line in the sand. It’s why not all drafts are equal either. 
 

sometime you get a glut of talent and have more elite players other times the quality may be lower, if we use football (soccer) as an example would you say that only Messi or Ronaldo could be classed as generational?

[Chris12345]

6 hours ago, UKNuck96 said:

You cannot quantify elite or generational by making an arbitrary line in the sand. It’s why not all drafts are equal either. 
 

sometime you get a glut of talent and have more elite players other times the quality may be lower, if we use football (soccer) as an example would you say that only Messi or Ronaldo could be classed as generational?

I don't watch soccer so I don't even know who those people are but I hear what you are saying.

 

Basically Mario and Wayne playing together.

[wai_lai416]

17 hours ago, Chris12345 said:

I was thinking 5% in the league so just high level 150 centers 5% = 7.5 centers round to 8 for elite plus 1 generation.

 

I am of the belief you can't have multiple generation players bundled together in the same positions.

 

I think Petey is very good but not elite. Bo is there too but a different player.

 

Not as good as McDavid, Crosby, McKinnon, etc.

 

 

There aren't 150 high level centers in the league.. the 3rd and 4th line plugs are not really a high level really only the top 2 line center on each team should be considered 

[Wayne Glensky]

19 hours ago, TheNewGM said:

these players are really not worth much anymore..

 

barely "franchise" players anymore IMO. very elite players, yes. BUT

 

THEY ARE UNPROVEN!! I do not want to see big term or money or the curse of the canucks will never end.

K this is a joke. No one is saying they need 10 million per year contracts. They 100% deserve the money they are worth ! That is up to the agents and management. Petey and Hughes will get paid. 

[MikeyD]

Anybody thinking these guys will sign for 6 is out of their minds. Hughes has a small chance but he'd have to intentionally take a cut for the team. He has all the power in these negotiations. 

 

I'd be over the moon if Petey wanted the team to be competitive and sign for 7 but realistically he's worth up to 8.5. Hughes I anticipate will make 7. 

 

I can only wish Petey signs for 7 and Hughes for 6. That'd really show where their heads are at in terms of trying to win a cup. 

[grandmaster]

33 minutes ago, MikeyD said:

Anybody thinking these guys will sign for 6 is out of their minds. Hughes has a small chance but he'd have to intentionally take a cut for the team. He has all the power in these negotiations. 

 

I'd be over the moon if Petey wanted the team to be competitive and sign for 7 but realistically he's worth up to 8.5. Hughes I anticipate will make 7. 

 

I can only wish Petey signs for 7 and Hughes for 6. That'd really show where their heads are at in terms of trying to win a cup. 

Reasons why Quinn will get a lower than expected contract (5/6M per year):

- flat cap

- no one can make an offer sheet

- worst defensive season of his career and one of the worst in the NHL

 

Reasons why Petey will get lower as well (6/7M per year)

- flat cap

- came off a serious injury that took him out of a great majority of the season (Unknown if this will effect him from here on, even though he says he is fine now)

- seems to have a personal connection and more of a liking to this city, more so than Quinn (I just base this on their social media posts and its just an opinion, not fact!)

 

These players know how tight the cap situation is as well and hopefully they will concede some of their “market value” to help the team bring in more star power.

 

 

[MikeyD]

19 minutes ago, grandmaster said:

Reasons why Quinn will get a lower than expected contract (5/6M per year):

- flat cap

- no one can make an offer sheet

- worst defensive season of his career and one of the worst in the NHL

 

Reasons why Petey will get lower as well (6/7M per year)

- flat cap

- came off a serious injury that took him out of a great majority of the season (Unknown if this will effect him from here on, even though he says he is fine now)

- seems to have a personal connection and more of a liking to this city, more so than Quinn (I just base this on their social media posts and its just an opinion, not fact!)

 

These players know how tight the cap situation is as well and hopefully they will concede some of their “market value” to help the team bring in more star power.

 

 

I understand the reasons, but getting them to accept that is another story. It's a pipe dream. 

 

These kids are putting up great numbers and they're well before their prime. But in a world where hockey players typically take money over a chance at the cup, good luck getting them to accept a contract at 70% of what they can make on the open market. You gotta luck out and get loyalty from them. 

[wallstreetamigo]

21 minutes ago, grandmaster said:

Reasons why Quinn will get a lower than expected contract (5/6M per year):

- flat cap

- no one can make an offer sheet

- worst defensive season of his career and one of the worst in the NHL

 

Reasons why Petey will get lower as well (6/7M per year)

- flat cap

- came off a serious injury that took him out of a great majority of the season (Unknown if this will effect him from here on, even though he says he is fine now)

- seems to have a personal connection and more of a liking to this city, more so than Quinn (I just base this on their social media posts and its just an opinion, not fact!)

 

These players know how tight the cap situation is as well and hopefully they will concede some of their “market value” to help the team bring in more star power.

 

 

It gets very risky to ask your young star players to take a contract haircut while you are consistently paying over market value for veterans.

 

Not saying those two guys wont do it. But they have a pretty ruthless agent. The "but they are rfa and the vets are ufa" argument doesnt hold water with agents anymore.

 

Star players arent the ones you lowball. Unless you want them to walk as soon as they become ufa.

[RU SERIOUS]

On 5/20/2021 at 7:59 PM, EddieVedder said:

Petey we can lock in at 8.  But a big hell no to Hughes.  That money needs to go to a legit number 1 dman.

Agree on Hughes - not on Petey! 

While Hughes is "fun" to watch, he is undoubtedly THE WORST +/- DEFENSEMAN ON THE TEAM AND 3rd WORST IN THE ENTIRE NHL AT MINUS -24.  If it wasn't for his positive  points (41 points minus his very embarrassing -24 screw-ups) he would have been long gone by now,  but  a NET +17 points keeps him in the game for sure.  He is constantly out of position, gets beat to the puck regularly and is too small to out-muscle many bigger players - let alone he constantly gets caught way down the ice on his "offensive escapades" (which in fairness does get him some of his points- but often cost him),  Hopefully once we get a new defensive coach, he can start to learn "how to be a proper defenceman"   and hopefully become a legit "reliable" defenseman one day.  Won't that be something!     In the meantime, he is not worth the same $ as EP40 and should be paid somewhat less but retained because there is hope for him and I believe he will get his $h1t together in the next few years with further training and mentorship.

 

As for EP40, he has alot of potential with great skills but his effectiveness dropped off quite a bit this season and he is a bag of bones and I'm honestly worried about his body standing up in the long run.  He is very slight, low weight - small framed kid and with a few good/hard hits in a rough playoff series, he'd easily be taken out of commission.  We've already seen him picked up in the air over some guys head and slammed to the ice like a bag of cubed ice-cubes being broken apart.   As well, he's already been out more than half this season with what could possibly become a chronic injury and has already had a couple of other less severe injuries in the past and he's only in his E.L. contract.   So, I'd pay him fair market value but on a shorter 3-4 year term because I'm very concerned about his physical well being in the long-term and his ability to maintain the output he had in his earlier time.

Edited May 23, 2021 by RU SERIOUS

[tas]

4 hours ago, grandmaster said:

Reasons why Quinn will get a lower than expected contract (5/6M per year):

- flat cap

- no one can make an offer sheet

- worst defensive season of his career and one of the worst in the NHL

 

Reasons why Petey will get lower as well (6/7M per year)

- flat cap

- came off a serious injury that took him out of a great majority of the season (Unknown if this will effect him from here on, even though he says he is fine now)

- seems to have a personal connection and more of a liking to this city, more so than Quinn (I just base this on their social media posts and its just an opinion, not fact!)

 

These players know how tight the cap situation is as well and hopefully they will concede some of their “market value” to help the team bring in more star power.

 

 

reasons they won't: you don't play hardball with the players you've decided are your franchise guys. 

[IBatch]

On 5/22/2021 at 4:30 AM, UKNuck96 said:

You cannot quantify elite or generational by making an arbitrary line in the sand. It’s why not all drafts are equal either. 
 

sometime you get a glut of talent and have more elite players other times the quality may be lower, if we use football (soccer) as an example would you say that only Messi or Ronaldo could be classed as generational?

What is a superstar?   What is a franchise player?     Read a great article on the word generational and even franchise being thrown around too often and it started with an explanation of what a superstar is by Ken Holland.    Basically a perennial first or second all-star team player.   Generational is taking that too a different level - as in the best player of a a generation not just by position but compared to the rest of the the superstars.   Patrick Kane and Ovi obviously are superstars as ended up perennial first and second all stars (firsts even better) most of their career -  but how do they really rank against Crosby who plays a more important position and style of game?   Can there be more then one player a generation?  Basically yes and no depending on that player and their impact.  

 

Generational, i suppose Ovi's one now (a player) after all his durability has put him in striking distance with Howe soon and won a cup.  But he's still no Crosby.   And he's not the best goal scorer ever (yet).   

 

Orr, (Espo? Potvin?), Gretzky, Mario, Jagr, Thornton? Crosby, Ovi .... (Bossy, Messier, Roy?) there can't be more then one maybe two a decade or so ...  next one McDavid as far as generational goes - as in "once a generation".    List could even be thinned down to Orr, Gretzky, Mario and just call the rest superstars.  Sakic, Forsberg, Lindros, Bure super-stars at least for a period of time. 

 

As for EP and QHs, they are both rising stars in this league.  BB and Horvat maybe still is too (a rising star), can't wait to see what he does with better wingers.    

 

League has a few superstars in it right now and believe both Crosby and Ovi would be the only ones that could be considered "generational".

 

As far as franchise players go any superstar is a franchise player.   As is quite a few stars that consistently do it as well.   PGP types. 

 

McDavid of course is making a statement he's also generational.   

Edited May 23, 2021 by IBatch

[Johnny Torts]

4 hours ago, RU SERIOUS said:

Agree on Hughes - not on Petey! 

While Hughes is "fun" to watch, he is undoubtedly THE WORST +/- DEFENSEMAN ON THE TEAM AND 3rd WORST IN THE ENTIRE NHL AT MINUS -24.  If it wasn't for his positive  points (41 points minus his very embarrassing -24 screw-ups) he would have been long gone by now,  but  a NET +17 points keeps him in the game for sure.  He is constantly out of position, gets beat to the puck regularly and is too small to out-muscle many bigger players - let alone he constantly gets caught way down the ice on his "offensive escapades" (which in fairness does get him some of his points- but often cost him),  Hopefully once we get a new defensive coach, he can start to learn "how to be a proper defenceman"   and hopefully become a legit "reliable" defenseman one day.  Won't that be something!     In the meantime, he is not worth the same $ as EP40 and should be paid somewhat less but retained because there is hope for him and I believe he will get his $h1t together in the next few years with further training and mentorship.

 

As for EP40, he has alot of potential with great skills but his effectiveness dropped off quite a bit this season and he is a bag of bones and I'm honestly worried about his body standing up in the long run.  He is very slight, low weight - small framed kid and with a few good/hard hits in a rough playoff series, he'd easily be taken out of commission.  We've already seen him picked up in the air over some guys head and slammed to the ice like a bag of cubed ice-cubes being broken apart.   As well, he's already been out more than half this season with what could possibly become a chronic injury and has already had a couple of other less severe injuries in the past and he's only in his E.L. contract.   So, I'd pay him fair market value but on a shorter 3-4 year term because I'm very concerned about his physical well being in the long-term and his ability to maintain the output he had in his earlier time.

Rasmus Dahlin says Hi!

 

No, seriously, what the &^@# do you expect out of an OFD? The WHOLE REASON WE PAY HIM IS BECAUSE HE IS AN OFD.

[WeneedLumme]

6 hours ago, wallstreetamigo said:

....But they have a pretty ruthless agent. The "but they are rfa and the vets are ufa" argument doesnt hold water with agents anymore....

So "ruthless" agents no longer pay any attention to the relative negotiating leverages of the two parties?

 

The agent is going to say, " If you don't pay us the UFA-level money we want, we will just get it from one of the other 31 teams who would love to have this player."

 

And what will the ruthless agent say when JB tells him, "Actually, no you won't; if your RFA player wants to play in the NHL and collect NHL-sized paycheques, he will be playing for our team, period."?

 

That scenario doesn't sound like a ruthless agent, it sounds more like a stupid or ignorant agent.

[tas]

23 minutes ago, WeneedLumme said:

So "ruthless" agents no longer pay any attention to the relative negotiating leverages of the two parties?

 

The agent is going to say, " If you don't pay us the UFA-level money we want, we will just get it from one of the other 31 teams who would love to have this player."

 

And what will the ruthless agent say when JB tells him, "Actually, no you won't; if your RFA player wants to play in the NHL and collect NHL-sized paycheques, he will be playing for our team, period."?

 

That scenario doesn't sound like a ruthless agent, it sounds more like a stupid or ignorant agent.

the only leverage jp barry needs is "these are the players you've chosen to build your franchise around. do you want them happy, or do you want them resentful and wanting out?"

[wallstreetamigo]

2 hours ago, WeneedLumme said:

So "ruthless" agents no longer pay any attention to the relative negotiating leverages of the two parties?

 

The agent is going to say, " If you don't pay us the UFA-level money we want, we will just get it from one of the other 31 teams who would love to have this player."

 

And what will the ruthless agent say when JB tells him, "Actually, no you won't; if your RFA player wants to play in the NHL and collect NHL-sized paycheques, he will be playing for our team, period."?

 

That scenario doesn't sound like a ruthless agent, it sounds more like a stupid or ignorant agent.

So you think EP and Hughes have no leverage and have to accept whatever Benning feels like offering them because they are RFA? They have more leverage than people think. Agents have been working for years to eliminate the 2nd discounted contract from the RFA picture.

 

EP and Hughes wont be expecting UFA money. But they wont be expecting a huge discount to what they are worth either. EP has more leverage than Hughes because he is eligible for an offer sheet.

 

If Benning extreme low balls EP or tells him what you suggest he should, Barry and Brisson start checking around the league about a potential offer sheet to force Benning's hand. The longer they hold out, the worse it gets for the Canucks. And if you dont know who his agents are, they are very well connected around the league. Another GM looking for an immediate impact and long term cost certainty for a young potential star player may be able to negotiate a deal with the Kraken to take a big contract player and may be willing to do Barry/Brisson a solid and throw an offer sheet EP's way. 

 

Is it likely? No. But its possible. And probably more possible this year with the expansiondraft being available to make deals to offload cap to them.

 

Even if he just holds out until the start of the season it ties Bennings hands on other moves he can make. 

 

I think EP will probably be willing to take a reasonable discount just because of who he is. Hughes honestly strikes me as a player who will want pretty much every penny of what he is worth. But he has less leverage too.

 

But the thing about these top level young guys now is even if Benning wins the battle now and forces significantly lower values on them so he can afford his bottom 6 vets on inflated contracts, he may lose the war. These guys can just sign a couple of shorter term contracts to get them to UFA status then walk if Benning wants to pretend he owns them indefinitely.

[Bertuzzipunch]

Imagine saying”Quinn has had the worst defensive season of his career!!”
 

Which is only 2 seasons long lmao 

[wallstreetamigo]

Just now, Bertuzzipunch said:

Imagine saying”Quinn has had the worst defensive season of his career!!”
 

Which is only 2 seasons long lmao 

I actually do think his defensive issues are a big deal that need to be fixed sooner rather than later.

 

He is gifted offensively. But when your offensive contributions very often come at the expense of your defensive responsibility, thats where coaching needs to be much more involved.

 

You dont want to beat the creativity out of him. But with his speed, mobility, passing ability, and ability to process quickly offensively, there is no reason those cant be transferrable skills on the defensive side of the puck to turn him into at least an average defender.

 

Green needs his offensive contributions so to some degree allows him to just play how he wants to. That isnt going to help Hughes long term to become a true top pairing guy though.

[4petesake]

I suspect QH may not sign until after Cale Makar is signed and  will set the bar for guys like Hughes and Dahlin. If QH signs first it probably means either he is willing to take a little less or JB is willing to gamble on overpaying. Hughes has a little less leverage as he isn’t an RFA who can be offer-sheeted but as others have pointed out leverage means much less with your core that with other players.

[aGENT]

8 minutes ago, 4petesake said:

I suspect QH may not sign until after Cale Makar is signed and  will set the bar for guys like Hughes and Dahlin. If QH signs first it probably means either he is willing to take a little less or JB is willing to gamble on overpaying. Hughes has a little less leverage as he isn’t an RFA who can be offer-sheeted but as others have pointed out leverage means much less with your core that with other players.

I don't think it's really as complicated or scary as people are making it out to be. Both sides will look at comparables, the current flat cap environment etc and go from there. This 'no hardball with your stars' silliness is...Negotiation is a discussion.. And no you don't just throw extra money at stars 'because'.

 

Petey's closest comparables are likely Aho and Barzal. Both of whom have arguably proven more, more consistently (Aho especially, is both a better all around player, and got an arguably inflated, offer sheet deal).  

 

As you point out, Makar is likely Hughes closest comparable (if he signs first) but both sides will look at what other top, young D have signed for recently (Provorov, McAvoy, Chabot on the longer end etc) and go from there. Hughes is more offensively gifted than those guys but they also have greater size/physically and more refined defensive play in their favour.