Dazzle

@Alain Vigneault I really don't believe Schneider going on to win silverware on another team would have sat well with other Canuck fans. I know I would have been very unhappy/angry with that, considering I was AGAINST this trade from the beginning. And to be honest, I genuinely don't believe you when you said you'd be okay with the trade, considering Horvat was not really thought to be an "exciting" prospect (skating was considered his weakness), and this would end up being the last time we'd see Gillis in a GM position. I do think now that the trade worked well for the Canucks (fortunately) for the sole reason that Horvat has become the beast he is now. Horvat DID address the skating issue right away, as did Boeser. We were lucky to have two hard working prospects, but they worked hard to elevate their games (not lucky).

If Schneider had succeeded, it would have been another case of Cam Neely 2.0, which was brought up quite recently although briefly with regards to Virtanen. Canucks fans tend to remember the bad stuff more so than the good. We even feel like the team is cursed (draft picks, reffing, salary cap penalties etc.).

Based on what you said (cap implications, lack of exciting prospects etc), I believe you have unintentionally agreed that the trade was a bad one. The Canucks couldn't even take a throw-in? One more prospect on the farm could have helped. But it seems Gillis didn't go that route. I know you said you hated the trade, but the return is weak from the Canucks POV. All that development time and certainty in Schneider, and all you get is a draft pick of an unknown value because he hasn't proven anything at the NHL level yet, plus developmental time for that player. There WAS a risk in this trade that could've set this team back even further.

Contrary to what you think, it DOES exonerate Benning. If Gillis were to be given some leniency for losing draft picks, most notably the Ballard trade (Grabner, a former first round pick; a 1st round pick (25th overall, basically a 2nd rounder); Bernier (a 2nd and 3rd rounder used to pay for him), Benning should have been entitled to the same courtesy.  Both GMs were under the same ownership, and in both circumstances, winning was a priority. This ultimately dictated what GMs could do. After all, there were rumours that Aquilini did not like the rebuild idea. Could we really blame him?

Fans don't show up at the hint of mediocrity (and they didn't). This is an investment, a business. A rebuild doesn't sell you tickets, no matter what the fans think about it. So, we have an owner who didn't want to go through the process of rebuilding, and it actually cost the team a lot of time and draft picks to get to this point. However, unlike Gillis, Benning actually improved the development of players, many of whom we see now on the team.

You can't blame Gillis entirely either. He advocated radical changes like sleep doctors, and lobbied the league to improve travel schedules. He also got Aquilini to get new locker room facilities to re-inspire the players.  Having Ryan Walter (lol) to motivate the players. Gillis tried. And Aquilini was willing to spend every single year. You have to recognize that everyone is not faultless, but certainly not everyone is as incompetent as fans like to describe them as.

I think I have come to appreciate more what GIllis did (and didn't do) because I recognize that ownership/playoffs handcuffed him into selling the future for success. But this narrative also highlights Benning's contributions. As with any GM, Gillis and Benning had to answer to ownership. Therefore, fans calling for a GM or a coach to be fired don't seem to realize that they are just convenient figureheads that answer to ownership. Sometimes owners let people do their jobs if they have confidence in them. I believe Aquilini has confidence in Benning right now.

Being completely anti-Gillis or being anti-Benning doesn't let you fully understand the situation. And we see the bias on the forums every day. You'd think that nothing good is happening right now. Did you know that Buffalo (same year as us as an expansion team, 1970) has missed the playoffs 9 consecutive times?  Our fans are incoherent, ungrateful, and spoiled.

No, I honestly wouldn't have been upset.  Like I said, I knew we were giving up a top goaltender who was capable of achieving those things.  Up until 2018, Schneider was fairly good for New Jersey anyway.  It's a shame that injuries did him in.

I already said that Gillis mismanaged the Schneider/Luongo trades way back before.  I wasn't highlighting his goalie trades as good trades; I was highlighting the fact that trading Schneider to New Jersey was smarter than trading him to Edmonton, even if he walked away from "less" of a return.

If you want to believe that trading picks for rentals (during a period of time when your team is a clear-cut favourite for winning the Stanley Cup) is the same thing as trading picks as throw-ins/sweeteners to upgrade prospects, then by all means.  The truth is that trading a 2nd or 3rd for a rental, which is what Gillis did, is far better risk to take than trading a 3rd with a low-grade prospect attached for Andrey Pedans, which is what Benning regularly did.  It's fine to try that gamble once but Benning made at least 2-3 of those types of deals all throughout his first two seasons.  For every serviceable Baertschi you might get, you get a sea of Veys/Larsens/Etems/Pedans.  It was super wasteful and I don't imagine ownership was pressuring him to make those deals either.  Gillis tried that with Bernier, it didn't work out, and he never did that type of move again.  So, no, Benning doesn't get a free pass because he continued to repeat these deals when it was clear early on they weren't working.

Development has improved, sure, but again, it's easier to develop top 10 picks than it is picks in the 20-30 range, especially when your team is at the bottom of the basement.  When you're playing in a top team, the expectation is to develop while helping your team win.  That isn't necessarily the same case when your team is at the bottom and expected to suck.  Case and point, Zack Kassian (just 21 and 30 ish games of NHL experience) being expected to be our "Milan Lucic" upon being acquired, while somebody like Virtanen is still getting the "just wait until he matures" treatment from some fans, despite having 5 seasons of pro hockey under his belt.  Many still believe in Juolevi despite him entering his draft+5 with 1 NHL game played, having been taken as a top 5 pick.

Now that Judd is gone, it will be interesting to see what amounts of the 2020 picks and picks of subsequent drafts.  I won't sit here and argue that he did all the work, but I don't think its necessarily coincidental that from 2015 - 2020, we've seen some of the best prospects and development of prospects in the organization's history.  Nevertheless, Judd wasn't here in 2014 and yet that draft produced Virtanen, McCann, Demko, and Tryamkin, so maybe this bodes well for Benning.

@Alain Vigneault Gillis' trading for Bernier wasn't a rental. He traded the 2nd and 3rd round picks in July. This probably would have made sense if Bernier was the real deal. Later on, as I described in the other post, he was traded WITH Grabner AND a 1st for Ballard. In all of these transactions, no one was a rental. This in some way justifies Gillis' thought process at the time. There was some inherent value with Bernier and Ballard; that is until they proved to be players that didn't pan out.

Pedan was acquired using a 4th round pick, which is comparable to how Alberts was acquired by Gillis (4th and 5th round picks, if I recall, and Alberts was a rental, but ended up signing with us afterward.) Pretty insignificant player to the rebuild/retool in the grand scheme of things, but no one can legitimately say that he hurt the team. Pedan and Alberts probably likely outperformed any of the draft picks that the above teams probably used. It's probably a wash in the end, but I didn't actually look them up.

I think criticizing these trades with these medium to low grade picks is a bit nitpicky. Both GMs did this to shore up depth, which is exactly what these players were thought to be. Larsen also was a cheaply acquired pick, 4th round pick if I recall from Edmonton, but was extremely skilled. Etems was acquired in exchange of Jensen (late 1st round pick by Nonis that didn't pan out), and a 6th round). Etems actually had a decent season in Anaheim, but was clearly a reclamation project and nobody won that trade at all. Vey is really the only one that you could potentially criticize but he had very solid AHL numbers. It just didn't work out, but we will likely have no idea how much that family drama (dad accused of murder plot) affected his on-ice performance.

Dunno why Baertschi's name keeps coming up though. He is/was a good player, but a 2nd (Rasmus Anderson for CAL) was used to pay for it. We never had anyone like Baertschi up until this point. In fact, he was top-six for the initial years of Benning. That's exactly how thin we were on depth. The fact that we kept trying to get semi-developed players for low-ish draft picks speeds volumes about how Benning TRIED (keyword tried) to improve the depth on this team, which had next to nothing. All those players we talked about, we had none of those in the system. Furthermore, players like Petan did end up getting traded away to NYI for scrap pieces. Remember, Benning was under the gun to try to compete. How do you do that when you have a 3rd, 4th round picks which ultimately require time to develop? Benning tried to take the shortcut, and in many of these cases, it didn't really work out. It just comes to show you how tough it is to make it to the NHL. It's also very hard to construct an NHL team, which isn't at all like the NHL video games.

Juolevi is a good prospect, but his injuries have really hampered him. This pick looks really bad especially when people were clammering for Tkachuk/Nylander, and Sergachev (who really benefited being in the Tampa system, otherwise he would have been a poor selection for us). Juolevi could still be an important piece moving forward, but we will have no idea what would have happened if he wasn't so injured. Hopefully he doesn't get so unlucky from this point forward. I am still one of those hopeful about Juolevi.

Virtanen is a better version of Kassian, but it's unfortunate that both players have discipline/off-ice issues. Had he panned out like a young Lucic or something, he would have been a hometown hero in the same rank as Larkin for Detroit. After hearing the stuff today that Warhippy said about Virt, I am not happy with this player anymore.

Judd is a great scout, but Benning and Weisbrod (lol the Jankowski pick looks kinda bad though for what he promised) are experts at what they do. Having a third voice like Judd is not really that useful, particularly as Judd is discovering his thrill for having autonomy. Good for him. He deserved it.

The McCann pick/trade was a notable flub by Benning, and Gudbranson was not a great acquisition at all, which ended up being Pearson. We still don't have anyone that is like Pearson in our system, at least not nearly as developed like he is. Everything is still in progress with Benning. Demko was an amazing pick, and so was Hoglander. (Both 2nd round picks). There's others coming that also have potential to be great (Dipietro, Lind, etc)

From our discussion, we can review the Miller trade again. The 1st round pick (lottery protected) used to trade for Miller is comparable to the trade for Schneider and NJ. They're opposite trades actually, but I can explain.  NJ tried to acquire a known entity like Schneider. Canucks tried to acquired a known entity like Miller. If NJ's trade was thought to be one that made sense to the Canucks, then the trade for Miller should be seen in the same light. It should be reiterated that the 1st round pick was lottery protected, which TB was not able to get. Miller was on a good contract, and so was Schneider. You have to pay to get something good in return. Although TB had a cap crunch, they didn't have to sell too low for Miller because he was still someone who was producing on their team.

If you thought there wasn't a risk to trade Schneider, but thought Miller's trade was risky, there is something inconsistent in that analysis. Both trades were calculated risks. When you think about it, do you realize that Schneider's failure in NJ and poor team performance likely had an impact on Lou Lamouriello's reputation as a GM? Some decisions don't work out and the blame goes to the GM, whether that's fair or not. There's a 2015 article I saw just from a search that put NJ's failures on Lou.

https://montrealgazette.com/sports/hockey/nhl/pat-hickey-blame-gm-lamoriello-for-the-devils-problems

It doesn't talk about Schneider, but we both know he struggled mightily along with the team. Imagine if he had been another Brodeur...

^ (faceplam), yeah is it speculation, look up the definetion of rumour, regardless of who it's from that's what it is its speculation.

I don't know how that makes people fools to believe it. And most people don't believe them they just hope that they come true or not. I'm not really sure what point you are making.

C-C-C-Combo Breaker!

what makes them fools is the fact they believe in the speculations ? not rocket science dude

Vanfan: If you look at the status posts, I didn't "mix" it up. The comments were DIRECTLY under BuckFoston's name. There is no evidence that there was copy and pasting. The comments in question were in the middle of his post in one status post. Furthermore, the followup comments seem to indicate his acknowledgement of his previous comments. Your comments regarding job offers admittedly come out of nowhere, unless you deleted an old post or so - I can't be certain. It doesn...

...It doesn't say anything about my character.

If you're so highly principled about how you are raised and stuff, surely you're not using "ricer" cars to street race with people and putting other lives in danger? Maybe not...

I don't have any chips on my shoulder. I still believe you're full of BS. I'm sure personal safety is a legit reason but if "BuckFoston's" comments were actually yours, then what's the BS about you sa...

...saying a job is basically too easy for the money that you get? Lame excuse.

Fact is, you never had the job offer, period. I'm sure you're a nice guy and all but it's such a bad lie. Even the most qualified of people doing your type of trade wouldn't get offered a job of 500 k a year, pfft. The recession affects the global market and you're telling me you got a super high paying job during this time? Lol.

Just stop lying.

Nothing special. Same old, same old. Haha

Are you still in school?

Yes and no.

I'm doing a certificate program that is going to end in 2 months from now. After that, I'll be working for a rather extended period of time.

How about you?

That's cool. Are you looking forward to it?

I'm not in school. haha

They could literally do it today and Boston could gun for the playoffs with a 1-2 punch of Bergeron and Miller. 

Coyle and Miller both make exactly 5.25M. Lysell would be in the AHL and wouldn't count against the cap. 

I'd take the seaplane over just to drive Miller to the airport.

This could be our one and only chance to get that young RHD we so desparately need in our system.  I don't know if we can deal a big piece like Miller and not require that in the package.

Yeah we can do it. Why don't you set it up? I will ask Spam/Spam can voluntarily join it.

NAME: CDC Caboose

Code is 12345678

Wait: ID is 573787

invitation code is 12345678

The entire thread was basically people arguing about the integrity of the media. LOL

People say Schmidt didn’t have a good season. I disagree, the entire team had playing issues and then when it seemed to be corrected. Bam Covid. We need to add to this team but everyone just needs a fresh healthy start for the most part 

I'm not knocking Nate, I like him. But it was an awful year for him to experience with the trade, covid, new coaching, etc. 

The book was better.

^ The book is said to be full of question marks with regards to what is true and what is fiction. A film based off the book is, therefore, going to be problematic. If you were to watch the film for what it is - a look into army life and what it could do to an individual, it serves its purpose well. The book is the source, but there's at least one passage inside the book that had to be removed by the publisher due to a 1.8 million dollar lawsuit.

The suit was successful btw. The man filing the suit received his money. Though his name wasn't mentioned, there was enough evidence to suggest that it was referring to him.

Russians Do have a little bit of this...……..

Pettersson threw his silver medal into the stands. Nobody talks about that now

Petey's still wearing his?

That was me, I only have half an hour and have been wavering on whether to play or not

Play!

Half an hour for what?

I don’t think Rathbone has been bad at all to be honest (except for last night).  I just don’t know what one can realistically expect if he’s being fed bottom pairing minutes.  
 

Will say this though:  Podkolzin and Rathbone in Abbotsford will definitely lead to sell outs over in Abby.  Podz, Bone, and Klimovich leading the way down there to a championship may not be the worst thing in the world?

@Patel Bure If you go back to the other games (minus tonight), you'll generally see that Rathbone is outmuscled by other forwards. This is a bad thing when you are being sheltered as much as he is. In short, for the limited minutes, he should not be a defensive liability at all, which I think he is.

That's why I think he should be in the AHL so he can play meaningful minutes, and he can gain the confidence while playing in that same league. Right now, he's potentially costing Canucks games. The breakaway last night + the overskating on the same play show that he's letting guys pass him. This is not just a one game thing. Moreover, he's not actually producing here.

Hilarious how last month, a few people were ready to pack Quinn Hughes’ bags while anointing Rathbone as our 2nd pairing LD guy.  

@Dazzle Sometimes the best move is not to do anything (as in selecting an overpaid, past their prime NHL "vet".    We'll find out one way or another soon enough.

Outside Dunn what does Seattle have “currently” for puck moving defencemen? We’ll find out real quick how good a team is with just defensive defencemen. 

As a pot smoker I am offended by this. Except not really because I’m too laid back to care. 
 

Also, they had a strategy to draft defense first and keep the cap low to weaponize cap space for trades and free agents. 
 

Honestly a pretty solid strategy depending on what their next moves are. The next few weeks will be telling. 

@bigbadcanucks Yeah... Todd Diamond also looks untrustworthy. Just that look - it's unmistakable. I didn't think Tryamkin was coming back because I wasn't convinced with Diamond's words.

@Dazzle - I hate phukker$ like Diamond.  It's too bad that Dhaliwal fell for Diamond's BS chatter about Tryamkin.  That hurt Dhaliwal's credibility, which is too bad because IMO, he is one of the most connected and trusted media types with the Agent fraternity. 

Dhaliwal re-established his credibility (at least with me) with being in the know with UFA signings Jim Benning had lined up.  He was on the ball about the volume of moves that were to come on Day 1...I'm sure he could have pulled a Seravalli and spilled all the beans, but he held off and let the day unfold while giving us clues as to what was to happen.

He was also the first to bang the drum on the Connor Garland move, a move that I thought was a possibility for the Canucks at some point starting from as far back as when it was reported that ARZ had not even spoken to him about an extension.

Barry used to be known at one point for feeding rumors and such. Upfront conversations like the one posted are great. Also thanks for that. Not sure where I got 10m in my head.  Honestly though I wasn't hating on Barry more though than admiring his ability to pull off things for clients. Being a piece of $&!# is kinda part and parcel of being an agent  

Having pocket aces is NOTHING compared to the statistics involved with this situation happening.

Statistically speaking, Quads on the FLOP, and you're holding an ace, three handed, and the opponent has a pocket pair is extremely rare, and near impossible. To satisfy both those conditions, the percentage should be below 0.01.

April Fools, it was really just Ace high.

It's not "just" Ace high.

It's the likelihood that the board is three aces, AND an opponent is holding an ace, AND another opponent is holding a pocket pair. If this is not crapty luck, I don't know what is.

@NewbieCanuckFan
The problem is that 7 years ago and beyond that, he could've drafted a goalie for starters in any round, or a serviceable forward or defenceman, and we'd still be afloat.

The only players of any consequence that he ever drafted was Hodgson, Hutto, and Horvat, during his 6 years here. Horrible.

He traded for a 24 year old goalie that was 4th in Vezina voting a season ago.  Also signed undrafted 24 year old Tanev.  (should clarify both were 24 years old when Benning was hired).  

Right now our blueline is a complete mess.  None of them can play defense even on the level of a 31 year old Hamhuis (his age when Benning came aboard) save Schmidt (who is 30 years old now himself).  That's not on Gillis.

Ultimately he was fired for his inability to draft.  When new GM's come into a job, of course there's going to be problems.  If there weren't, the job wouldn't be open (barring previous GM moving voluntarily elsewhere).

The Schneider trade was a bad trade at first glance: trading away a known commodity (with a lack of developed goaltending prospects) for an unknown quantity, in which scouting is obviously a weak point of Gillis.

If Dreger is to be believed, the return from Edmonton was supposedly a lot better than just a 9th. We'll never know. I'm not saying we 'should've' done that trade, but the return for ONLY a 9th is just bad.

Hence my point, had Horvat not panned out, he would've been yet another long list of failed prospects. Gillis smugly said that his teams usually drafted "24 and above".

Question for all those who think Green is a good coach:. What aspect of his job did he demonstrate he is capable of performing at an acceptable standard?

@Mike Vanderhoek But that's the thing though. There IS a double standard in play here. Benning was already well-criticized for his performance as a GM by the fifth season. That didn't seem to stop people from sparing him more criticism just because he had a poor record/disappointing start, did it?

Likewise, just because Benning didn't work here doesn't mean he should get so much hate, right? Yet that's not what the media has been pushing. They've been arguing that the Canucks D core is terribly set up by Benning, and that Green had apparently done a great job making the best of the situation. I believe that is a complete fabrication though. Green is NOT a rookie coach. People talk about how good he was in the bubble. So how is he a rookie coach undeserving of criticism on his coaching, while earning praise for him being a "good coach"? That's not how it works.

When he complained about the roster, that's when I lost all respect for him. It was obvious that it was his systems that weren't working and how they were always on the heels.

A good coach gets the most out of his players, a bad one complains about it.

ditto on the chloroform.

Haha, thanks for the replies all. No on chloroform!

@Roger Neilson's TowelSo he's pretty much HFboard's problem now.

@SabreFan1 They have 99 problems and he is most definitely one. 

He was the very first I put on ignore.  A pioneer of idiocy.

@Robert Long That's true. The C depth is something to be concerned about if Sutter leaves via buy-out/trade.

Loui is such a anchor.  I wish he had the decency to tear up his deal but unfortunately we're stuck with him until  he's bought out next season.

My guess is Jims going to try one more time to move Baer for any kind of pick tomorrow, and then buy him out on Thursday. 

Canucks could have players filing for arbitration.  In that 2nd buyout window only players who were on the team at the TDL and with a cap hit of more than 4M can be bought out.  If they buy out Sutter now they might not have another way to clear cap space late in the off-season if the arbitration awards are too high.  Would think that Baertschi is a more likely buyout in this window.  They also need to have a complete roster.  

A bunch more people die.  The border stays closed for another 4 years.  

Rinse/repeat stuff.

5,120,029,303 more tweets to endure.

Yeah to be honest I'd support closing the border and discontinuing diplomatic relations.  No reason to negotiate with terrorists.

i’ld lose faith in my fellow man. my faith says i shouldn’t judge others but i can’t handle a person that cares so little about all his people. 

Don't get me wrong Dazzle, I won't defend anyone's side of this story at all. But that's a lot of people coming forward and more than a few who don't need the pay day. Courts can decide

It's time for Jian to admit he's got an out of control 'fetish' and announce that he's seeking professional help to address it. Humility, accountability & dropping lawsuits is the best way to fix the mess he's created for himself. The issue is he sees absolutely nothin' wrong with attempting to usurp the rights of others...and he's a person who feels entitled & above reproach. Lying to his PR team was a big mistake. Socio-paths will do stuff like that.

I agree.. there's a lot of women coming out. As I said, it's this guy's fault that he's in this spot to begin with, guilty or not guilty.

I say this as a victim of smearing in the past. Just because a lot of people parrot some "facts", the "facts" may not even be true but they will sound true as long as there are people that continue to talk about it. Yet, without going into detail about it, I was at fault for putting myself in that position.

@bree2 half those people moaned about the EP40 pick too; some of them were even still complaining the year after when he was ripping it up in Sweden.  Benning is smarter than CDC.

^ 

he got a D???? getting rid of Ericksson alone is an easy A grade not too mention Rousell and Beagle!!!!!!!

Hmm, it works for me.

https://www.castanet.net/news/BC/344631/Telus-wireless-customers-experiencing-service-outages-in-BC#344631

Sucks, I missed an important meeting call because of it! 

if your cdc your ok.. if not your in trouble with the rep...

Just minus them with your differing vocal opinion. An intelligent response will always be more respected and popular overall, and you will see they often lack the mental capacity for any savvy response.

i never posted anything that deserved a negative

LOL 5th line.

Haha Magician. What did you get warning points for?

Calling people out and roasting them basically lulz

Lol! nice.